Segregation By Marital Status, Age - Helpful Or Not So Much?

[The Nehor]

I'm 30 in a YSA ward and in a terrible position for dating. The only girls in the ward I like are 23 and 22. I feel so screwed. If it helps I have the mentality of a 21 year old and been told I look 24.

I am in my mid-30s and someone guessed my age last week as 25. I just wondered what they wanted and why they were trying to flatter me.

[Stargazer]

Personal observation. There are exceptions. My bishop actually asked me to stay in my YSA Ward after I had aged out so I could continue to run and oversee out Sunday School program (I was president and teacher) but he knew I was not likely to creep out the younger girls and had more of an older brother relationship with them and dated girls in their late 20s.

I do not think women are pushovers but I also do not find that women have a massive maturity advantage.

 

Since posting my post that you've replied to here, I had the opportunity to speak with our YSA branch president, and he confirmed that they would indeed gently invite superannuated men not to attend the YSA branch, and would become adamant about it if the first hint didn't "take".  So you were definitely right, and I didn't know what I was talking about.  A rare event, I'm sure.

 

Interestingly, the current RS president has just superannuated out of the 18-31 age group, but he has asked her to stay on for a few months because he doesn't have a good replacement for her.

[Traela]

One big problem with the YSA wards is that keeping the Home and Visiting Teaching programs going is nearly impossible. My daughter's RS president joked about having that hour's VT routes figured out, while my son has never even been asked to be a home teacher at all. I don't think this is anomaly- during the two miserable years I spent in a YA ward in college (non-LDS school) I never once had a a VT or a HT.

In contrast, the YA program I attended later was great. We stayed in our traditional wards, in which most of the YAs had callings, but there was a fireside every Sunday, and an activity or FHE every week. Plus lots of dances. We had many more opportunities for socializing than my kids do now.

[thatjimguy]

I am in my mid-30s and someone guessed my age last week as 25. I just wondered what they wanted and why they were trying to flatter me.

 

Hey, take it positively. I am 45 and I get that people think I'm 30 all the time. Roll with it!

[sheilauk]

I'm 30 in a YSA ward and in a terrible position for dating. The only girls in the ward I like are 23 and 22. I feel so screwed. If it helps I have the mentality of a 21 year old and been told I look 24.

why do you find that age difference such a problem? My dad was 32 when he met and began dating my 21 year old mum, they've been married 53 years. If you like them, ask them out. 7 or 8 years difference is not unusual in my experience.

[Five Solas]

Since posting my post that you've replied to here, I had the opportunity to speak with our YSA branch president, and he confirmed that they would indeed gently invite superannuated men not to attend the YSA branch, and would become adamant about it if the first hint didn't "take".  ...

Appreciate that, Stargazer.  It's useful to the discussion to recognize the established age ranges for these LDS programs aren't simply suggestions or recommendations--they are purposefully enforced.  Our 30 year-old fellow board member, "VideoGameJunkie" really will face a challenge in the coming months as he will be asked to leave the YSA program & his dating opportunities will certainly diminish if he remains intent on pursuing relationships with LDS 20-somethings.

 

An interesting question (to me at least) is whether this constitutes mere policy or whether there is a doctrinal aspect.  As I mentioned in my OP, a bishop in one of the University Singles wards when I was there described the age restrictions as a necessity, citing D&C 132:8.  He may have just been stretching to justify a rule that some find arbitrary--or perhaps there is more to it.  I don't know. 

 

--Erik

 

PS.  And a rep point for use of "superannuated"

:0)

[BlueDreams]

Appreciate that, Stargazer.  It's useful to the discussion to recognize the established age ranges for these LDS programs aren't simply suggestions or recommendations--they are purposefully enforced.  Our 30 year-old fellow board member, "VideoGameJunkie" really will face a challenge in the coming months as he will be asked to leave the YSA program & his dating opportunities will certainly diminish if he remains intent on pursuing relationships with LDS 20-somethings.

 

An interesting question (to me at least) is whether this constitutes mere policy or whether there is a doctrinal aspect.  As I mentioned in my OP, a bishop in one of the University Singles wards when I was there described the age restrictions as a necessity, citing D&C 132:8.  He may have just been stretching to justify a rule that some find arbitrary--or perhaps there is more to it.  I don't know. 

 

--Erik

 

PS.  And a rep point for use of "superannuated"

:0)

I Label it definitely under policy, not doctrine...although I'm sure you can find some doctrinal backing for it. 

 

In a lot of ways YSA's just make sense. For example where I'm at (BYU/UVU area) there are a TON of singles in very clustered areas. A lot of these wards (at least around BYU) meet on campus for church that don't have facilities conducive for child activities. The activities center around single, college life and generally work for that, but wouldn't be the best for family wards. That stated, if I'm still not married by 31, I may just integrate into a family ward. I've heard more odd things about mid-singles....so I'm a little leery.

 

 Some family wards do well with integrating singles, some don't. I've been to ones that I enjoy and one or two that feel very isolating because the people in my demographic in that geographic area are minuscule.

 

Overall though, I think singles wards often just make sense and hold utility....similar to many a specialty ward (such as language/ethnicity specific wards). They're there to help care for specific needs that can't as easily be met in any other way. Simple as that. They can at times come with their own unique concerns, but the net good usually outweighs the problems.

 

With luv,

BD

[The Nehor]

I Label it definitely under policy, not doctrine...although I'm sure you can find some doctrinal backing for it. 

 

In a lot of ways YSA's just make sense. For example where I'm at (BYU/UVU area) there are a TON of singles in very clustered areas. A lot of these wards (at least around BYU) meet on campus for church that don't have facilities conducive for child activities. The activities center around single, college life and generally work for that, but wouldn't be the best for family wards. That stated, if I'm still not married by 31, I may just integrate into a family ward. I've heard more odd things about mid-singles....so I'm a little leery.

 

 Some family wards do well with integrating singles, some don't. I've been to ones that I enjoy and one or two that feel very isolating because the people in my demographic in that geographic area are minuscule.

 

Overall though, I think singles wards often just make sense and hold utility....similar to many a specialty ward (such as language/ethnicity specific wards). They're there to help care for specific needs that can't as easily be met in any other way. Simple as that. They can at times come with their own unique concerns, but the net good usually outweighs the problems.

 

With luv,

BD

 

It is worth noting that a lot of LDS form unofficial mid-singles groups (usually ages 25 to around 35 or 40) to allow those who feel a little out of place in a college ward to have other socializing opportunities. I helped run one. Again, we had to boot guys who were in their 50s and 60s who kept trying to finagle their way in. They were uniformly creeps and one was a stalker.

[BlueDreams]

It is worth noting that a lot of LDS form unofficial mid-singles groups (usually ages 25 to around 35 or 40) to allow those who feel a little out of place in a college ward to have other socializing opportunities. I helped run one. Again, we had to boot guys who were in their 50s and 60s who kept trying to finagle their way in. They were uniformly creeps and one was a stalker.

Haha, that's a little creepy. I'm good for now. Even in my undergrads I wasn't much for socializing with my ward, I always had my dance/singing group of 35-45 people as my social outlets and preferred it that. But I'll worry about it if I get to that bridge...currently I'm just barely 27, have a solid niche of friends, and have a relationship that looks fairly promising if we can learn to manage our mutual independent streaks and figure out a couple of other details (and for the big age gap folks....he's 9 years older than me). So I'm getting to that point where I'm pretty set in my ways.

[The Nehor]

Haha, that's a little creepy. I'm good for now. Even in my undergrads I wasn't much for socializing with my ward, I always had my dance/singing group of 35-45 people as my social outlets and preferred it that. But I'll worry about it if I get to that bridge...currently I'm just barely 27, have a solid niche of friends, and have a relationship that looks fairly promising if we can learn to manage our mutual independent streaks and figure out a couple of other details (and for the big age gap folks....he's 9 years older than me). So I'm getting to that point where I'm pretty set in my ways.

 

I was engaged twice in the YSA program but neither stuck. I am hoping if there is a third time it goes better.

[BlueDreams]

I was engaged twice in the YSA program but neither stuck. I am hoping if there is a third time it goes better.

 

Good luck!...3rd time's the charm right?

 

I've never been engaged. Honestly, beyond him I've never been in any form of a serious relationship, let alone one where we talked about marriage. Not from lack of interests/pursuits. I just never had any urge with most men that I dated to pursue it beyond a few dates. Like i said, I have a huge independence streak, so if I wasn't interested, I wasn't interested and would quickly cut ties. Being interested in him has literally taken some Godly intervention and we're still a very unconventional pair...haven't done just about anything in the "right order" when it comes to developing a relationship (well except for the fact that we were friends first).

 

IMO Relationships are just weird.

Edited September 8, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Ahab]

They are not. If a 45 year old man wanted to come to a YSA Singles ward to meet college-aged girls to date he would most likely be politely asked to not come. If he persisted the invitations to leave would become less polite.

I said the segregations should be voluntary "as they are" in the Church, meaning voluntary to the extent and in the way that they are.

I know there are policies and guidelines in the wards that people are usually expected to understand and follow, but there are still times and places where any single person any age can meet another single person any age in any ward in the Church.

I joined the Church at age 28 and didn't even hear about any singles ward until I was 29, when I voluntarily decided to start attending that ward. And then soon after I started attending I found out that it was intended for singles age 18 to 30, when I then started to feel a lot of pressure as if I should pick one of them before I got very much older, sometimes telling my bishop (and our Father in heaven) that I felt very stressed and was having a hard time deciding. There were just way too many to chose from and nobody stood out as the most obvious choice. So while still at age 30 I decided I better see what it would be like if I attended the Singles ward, thinking maybe I had missed someone who had to leave the YSA group. And no obvious choice for me there either, with me deciding to just voluntarily go back to my regular ward, sometimes, to get used to it if I didn't find my obvious choice by the time I hit 31. But it was all voluntary for me and I could go to any ward I wanted to go to.

I didn't end up finding my obvious choice until I was age 40 and had basically given up on ever finding her. She was the same age as I was then, actually almost a year older, and had just started attending any singles activity, a Single adult conference, when I had just recently become more active. She had already been married and was a widow when I met her. And we both felt like it was intended that we should both be with each other forever. And still do now after 13 years of marriage together.

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm not a fan of ward separation for reasons of language, race, socioeconomic, age or marital status. All have happened at various times in the church. I think the only separations now are based on age, marital status, and language.

 

We are all the body of Christ and we are all in need of the other. We need to learn to interact and care for one another. Diversity serves many good purposes but the separation tends to pigeon hole and label people. It limits their opportunities to interact with diverse people.

 

That said, I think it's great to have vibrant singles groups in different age ranges that are appropriate. We really don't need to encourage 40 year olds hitting on the 19 year olds or the 80 year olds chasing the 40 year olds. If it's going to happen naturally, fine. But separating social activities can be beneficial.

[Russell C McGregor]

I'm not a fan of ward separation for reasons of language, race, socioeconomic, age or marital status. All have happened at various times in the church. I think the only separations now are based on age, marital status, and language.

CFR, please.

[HappyJackWagon]

CFR, please.

 

 https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

The structure and organization of the Church encourage racial integration. Latter-day Saints attend Church services according to the geographical boundaries of their local ward, or congregation. By definition, this means that the racial, economic, and demographic composition of Mormon congregations generally mirrors that of the wider local community.²

 

3.  Footnote

• At some periods of time, reflecting local customs and laws, there were instances of segregated congregations in areas such as South Africa and the U.S. South.

[Kenngo1969]

... I had the opportunity to speak with our YSA branch president, and he confirmed that they would indeed gently invite superannuated men not to attend the YSA branch ... 

I'm not "old"; I'm superannuated!

 

Thanks for the new word, Stargazer!

[Kenngo1969]

Hey, take it positively. I am 45 and I get that people think I'm 30 all the time. Roll with it!

Sigh!  Would that 't'were!  Would that 't'were!  (I'm 45; I look 163 (though people usually are kid ... kind; sorry; Freudian slip!  ... enough to avoid telling me that! )) 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[BlueDreams]

I'm not a fan of ward separation for reasons of language, race, socioeconomic, age or marital status. All have happened at various times in the church. I think the only separations now are based on age, marital status, and language.

No, There are still some specialty wards that meet based on ethnic groups that are not tied to language in UT. The ones that I'm aware of are the Polynesian wards (the have a couple family and a YSA ward), Asian ward (i think it's a YSA), and a Native American ward (family ward)...this is not including the Genesis group, which is neither a ward nor a branch but has a number of callings that mirror both. I'm aware of them because I've visited, have friends who were/are members of, or I have participated in said wards.

 

Personally, I feel the reasons they exist is similar to why the anti-nephi-lehites were, for a long while, somewhat separate from the Nephites and were a gathering place for those who had been rejected or found little place in their world. It isn't obviously a permanent thing and one day there won't be -ites, but today those categories really can matter...especially when you're just barely moving into UT from out of state/country into a completely foreign culture in which you are now a distinct minority in every use of that term. For a lot of my minority friends the culture shock can be overwhelming. I currently go to a regular YSA, but I still visit an ethnic-specific ward because it nourishes my soul in a way that a regular ward where I'm usually one of a handful of minorities just can't. There is a form of expression that happens there that's just...easier to have.  

 

On top of that, there's usually more openness to discuss and address culturally based concerns or community issues. For example, when I attended the Poly ward they had a special discussion about kava and the WoW that also bled into other traditional practices and balancing that in the gospel. When I've attended Genesis it was to sing in a gospel-style tradition with my singing group (they now have a genesis gospel choir)...the sacrament meeting room has probably never been louder. I also gave a presentation to the youth there about the civil rights movement. Testimonies there could be....raw/expressive in a way that would be difficult in the usual ward setting. etc. Much of these experiences wouldn't have been able to happen without these specialty wards/church-sponsored venues existing.  

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

These wards are not assigned though, correct? People attend them out of choice.

[Russell C McGregor]

No, There are still some specialty wards that meet based on ethnic groups that are not tied to language in UT. The ones that I'm aware of are the Polynesian wards (the have a couple family and a YSA ward), Asian ward (i think it's a YSA), and a Native American ward (family ward)...this is not including the Genesis group, which is neither a ward nor a branch but has a number of callings that mirror both.

Is the Genesis Group still going?

[Calm]

Looks like they need to update their website:

http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.org/calconstruction.html

[halconero]

I'm personally in favour of semi-integrated wards. For a non-YSA example of this I once served in Wickenburg, AZ. There was just one ward, an english one, which had a sizable (20+) Latino/Mexican group which attended. For sacrament they had translation sets available for the members, and did one talk every meeting in Spanish for a while. For Sunday School and the Priesthood/Relief Society meeting people separated by language. 

 

As far as callings went people were paired regardless of language (with some accommodations made for people with absolutely no language skills). Mexicans were paired with Anglo-Americans for home teaching and presidencies and there was a Latin-American counselor in the bishopric.

I wasn't present previous to these changes and after (I was there for almost a year as a missionary). The changes were astounding. Previously racist attitudes were eroded and erased, trailer parks and poor neighbourhoods which no middle-class white member had ever been to were visited, and I began to see a bit of a Zion community arise from it (still not perfect, but definitely an improvement). A year after my mission I visited and a Mexican member had seen his English skills grow considerably through attendance, which had helped his business. The Relief Society president was not very conversant in Spanish. The Latino converts were gaining experience in church leadership through association with the English members.

 

I saw somewhat of the same in a family ward in Kelowna, BC. Rather than create a YSA branch, they added a third counselor to the family ward Bishopric who oversaw the YSA program. Sacrament was with the family ward, with YSA sunday schools and 3rd-hour meetings. YSA members still received family ward callings in the sunday school, young men's, and nursery. This meant that they would teach Sunday school or help in primary about once a month, or every other week so they could still attend the YSA programs. Mutual leaders still went to the weekday activities to help out. In this manner I saw the YSA function of bringing together single members for dating purposes served, as well as engendering future family ward callings in the YSA members.

 

Sooooooooooooo...I guess that's my long way of saying that I think they should have YSA programs within a family ward setting.

[BlueDreams]

These wards are not assigned though, correct? People attend them out of choice.

Yes. In fact when I went to the poly they had to reiterate that they were not recruiting. A number of bishops had begun to believe they were....wasn't so. People would just visit and get sucked into the spirit of the ward  and then not want to go back to their other ward (this was before they started to enforcing actually being polynesian to attend as a member. At one point it felt more like the UN ward...there were over 30 nationalities represented who attended...it was also the closest to what I picture zion feeling like at that time). No one is assigned to these. And the Genesis group is basically open membership (if you're there you're in) 

 

Is the Genesis Group still going?

 Yep. Alive and well. Meets up in Midvale every fast sunday evening...so i don't attend very often (about 1-2x's a year)

 

Looks like they need to update their website:

http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.org/calconstruction.html

 

Yep, that they could definitely do. They're not the best at that, plus they usually do that in the meeting (ie. telling about this or that). 

Edited September 9, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Stargazer]

Appreciate that, Stargazer.  It's useful to the discussion to recognize the established age ranges for these LDS programs aren't simply suggestions or recommendations--they are purposefully enforced.  Our 30 year-old fellow board member, "VideoGameJunkie" really will face a challenge in the coming months as he will be asked to leave the YSA program & his dating opportunities will certainly diminish if he remains intent on pursuing relationships with LDS 20-somethings.

 

An interesting question (to me at least) is whether this constitutes mere policy or whether there is a doctrinal aspect.  As I mentioned in my OP, a bishop in one of the University Singles wards when I was there described the age restrictions as a necessity, citing D&C 132:8.  He may have just been stretching to justify a rule that some find arbitrary--or perhaps there is more to it.  I don't know. 

 

--Erik

 

PS.  And a rep point for use of "superannuated"

:0)

 

Oh, it's policy.  Couldn't possibly be doctrine.

 

As to VideoGameJunkie, upon his 31st birthday he will be asked to attend a family ward, but nothing stops him from dating women who are still attending the YSA branch.

[Five Solas]

...

As to VideoGameJunkie, upon his 31st birthday he will be asked to attend a family ward, but nothing stops him from dating women who are still attending the YSA branch.

Certainly true, but misses the point.  I wrote his opportunities (i.e., in the future) will diminish because he will no longer have the YSA venue to meet women. 

 

Of course he can continue to pursue relationships with women he has met already.  But unless he's already met "the one" and just needs to close the deal--he will need to find a new venue in order to continue to meet women and have dating options.  Perhaps that could be through the SA program (although a number of posts herein suggest that isn't the most promising venue).  Perhaps it could be done online.  Or perhaps he will need to explore community options outside the LDS Church.  I do hope VideoGameJunkie will keep us posted as he undertakes this transition.

 

--Erik