Segregation By Marital Status, Age - Helpful Or Not So Much?

[Five Solas]

Interesting thread going on, "The Truth About Singles In The Church" started by cinepro--and it inspired the above question.  From my own experience (back in the 90's to mid-aughts, segregation wasn't particularly helpful.  (On another thread, I once shared a bit of that.) 

 

But curious what others think.  I remember a bishop once explaining it, saying, "The lord's house is a house of order" (quoting the D&C, not the Bible).  Would that be the prevailing view here? 

 

--Erik

 

[Duncan]

In our stake here my sister was the first RS Pres. when they organized a YSA Branch (later ward) She said that prior to forming the unit there was more activity among YSA people but less people getting married and then when they formed the branch there were more people getting married but more inactivity. I am not in favour of single adult wards or branches

[The Nehor]

I am all in favor of dividing YSA from SA. 22 year old girls should not have to reject the advances of 35 year old guys which is what happens.

[Duncan]

I am all in favor of dividing YSA from SA. 22 year old girls should not have to reject the advances of 35 year old guys which is what happens.

 

are you saying you want them to not reject advances from 35 yr old men? I am 37 next week, I only aim for over 25 yr old women or women that look like Elaine Benes from Seinfeld

[Five Solas]

are you saying you want them to not reject advances from 35 yr old men? I am 37 next week, I only aim for over 25 yr old women or women that look like Elaine Benes from Seinfeld

Courage, Duncan!  My wife was 24 when I met her.  I was 37...

 

If it raised any eyebrows then, 8 years & 3 kids later--it sure doesn't now.

:0)

 

--Erik

[Duncan]

Courage, Duncan!  My wife was 24 when I met her.  I was 37...

 

If it raised any eyebrows then, 8 years & 3 kids later--it sure doesn't now.

:0)

 

--Erik

 

 

awesome!!!! Thanks man!

[JLHPROF]

Courage, Duncan!  My wife was 24 when I met her.  I was 37...

 

If it raised any eyebrows then, 8 years & 3 kids later--it sure doesn't now.

:0)

 

--Erik

 

I was 35, my wife was 24  when we married.  Not really any eyebrows, but then her Dad has 20 years on her Mom.

[Stargazer]

I answered yes to both questions, but I truly don't know.  "No opinion" does not equate to "I don't know", so I couldn't check that box.

 

As a married old fart I have been called to be the finance clerk for our stake's YSA branch, and so I have some contact with these fine young people.  Limited but quality.  I'm actually a member of both the YSA branch and my family ward.  The YSA Elder's Quorum President was surprised to suddenly have a 63-year-old married High Priest in his quorum!

 

I don't know if having this branch is bad or good.  It affords some young folks the opportunity to engage in leadership positions they might otherwise not have an opportunity for.  Our recently released Branch Clerk is a young man I've known since he was knee high to a grasshopper, and at his age there is no way he would have ever been a Ward Clerk, attending Bishopric meetings and suchlike, so for him it's been an eye-opener.  But did he need this?  I don't know.  It certainly hasn't hurt him.

 

I will say that I believe the Church has studied the entire matter and has concluded that having age- and marital status- segregated congregations is an overall positive.  I can see that there might be situations or people for whom it is not a good thing.  I do remember that we had a single member of our ward who wanted to attend the YSA branch, but our bishop would not send him there (not that he could have stopped him from attending).  This member was rather unbalanced and proved the bishop's reluctance to send him the YSA branch when he committed a murder and was tossed into prison.  I don't know what that has to do with the advisability of such branches, but there it is.

 

[Stargazer]

Courage, Duncan!  My wife was 24 when I met her.  I was 37...

 

If it raised any eyebrows then, 8 years & 3 kids later--it sure doesn't now.

:0)

 

--Erik

 

Feel free to look in the other direction, Duncan!  My wife has 11 years on me.  When we married I was 28 and she was 39 (with seven children already, to which I added three more).  It has been an interesting ride, unfortunately soon to come to an end due to her health deterioration.

[The Nehor]

are you saying you want them to not reject advances from 35 yr old men? I am 37 next week, I only aim for over 25 yr old women or women that look like Elaine Benes from Seinfeld

No, I am saying they should not have to deal with such advances.

It is creepy enough when the 50 year olds creep on the women in their 30s.

On a less complimentary level those who make it to 30-35 in the church without marriage, particularly guys for some reason, are usually not the pick of the litter or the salt of the earth. They tend to be broken, awkward, and sometimes downright creepy. They need salvation as much as anyone else but I personally find it hard not to wonder what the hell I am doing with these people. Maybe that is pride. I don't know. In any case I would not want many of them around my 22 year old sister, let alone trying to date her. Harsh but true.

[Stargazer]

I am all in favor of dividing YSA from SA. 22 year old girls should not have to reject the advances of 35 year old guys which is what happens.

 

I don't see it.  I've seen plenty of successful marriages with that kind of age difference and more.  One of our former bishops (and later stake presidency member) was 35 when his first wife died.  He then married their family's regular babysitter, who was then around 19.  In this particular case, his first wife loved this young woman herself and knew that she loved their children, and she told him before she died that she was her first choice for his second wife.  The young woman of course had her freedom to choose, and she did choose to marry him.  They are still going strong 25 years later, with several children added to his first set.  It was and is a beautiful love story in all its aspects.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that it is not the age difference. 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Stargazer

[thatjimguy]

I can't blame Nehor one bit for the creeper idea, but I do think that is based off the worldly idea that older men are just after sex with younger women.

 

I mean, I was 39 when I started college and for some reason I was sent here to BYU-Idaho and not accepted to BYU where more of a field is.

 

I usually joke about the whole thing. I mean, if all I wanted was to chase young women for sex, why would I go to BYU-Idaho? I mean seriously, that would have to be the worst logical decision in the world!

 

It is nice to hear of some examples of it working though.

[Stargazer]

I can't blame Nehor one bit for the creeper idea, but I do think that is based off the worldly idea that older men are just after sex with younger women.

 

I mean, I was 39 when I started college and for some reason I was sent here to BYU-Idaho and not accepted to BYU where more of a field is.

 

I usually joke about the whole thing. I mean, if all I wanted was to chase young women for sex, why would I go to BYU-Idaho? I mean seriously, that would have to be the worst logical decision in the world!

 

It is nice to hear of some examples of it working though.

 

My scientific side says that our cultural creepout over older men marrying younger women is the biological imperative of the begetting and the raising of children.  Young and young-ish women bear children.  And have years and years to raise them to adulthood so that they can fulfill their own role of begetting more children.  Older men, on the other hand, have a shorter remaining lifespan and if they beget children have a higher likelihood of dying before they can complete supporting their children.  This is antagonistic to the survival of children.

 

Or so it was in much of human history.  Which is where we come from.

 

NOW it is possible for a 50, and even 60 year old man to beget a child and live long enough to support that child to adulthood.  But our culture, and our biological instincts, have not changed and we still get eeked out by it.

 

That's my theory anyway.

[sunstoned]

I am all in favor of dividing YSA from SA. 22 year old girls should not have to reject the advances of 35 year old guys which is what happens.

This would not have been a popular opinion with some of the early leaders.

[Ahab]

Both types of segregation are good because it helps to have places where people in similar situations and circumstances can meet.

Like a place for singles + or - 5 from age 25, and another place for singles + or - 5 from 35, and even another place for singles + or - 5 from 45, and 55, and 65, etc.

And then other places where married people can go who don't need to meet single people.

The segregations should be voluntary, though, as they are in the Church, with singles able to go to any ward they want to meet people.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

My scientific side says that our cultural creepout over older men marrying younger women is the biological imperative of the begetting and the raising of children.  Young and young-ish women bear children.  And have years and years to raise them to adulthood so that they can fulfill their own role of begetting more children.  Older men, on the other hand, have a shorter remaining lifespan and if they beget children have a higher likelihood of dying before they can complete supporting their children.  This is antagonistic to the survival of children.

 

Or so it was in much of human history.  Which is where we come from.

 

NOW it is possible for a 50, and even 60 year old man to beget a child and live long enough to support that child to adulthood.  But our culture, and our biological instincts, have not changed and we still get eeked out by it.

 

That's my theory anyway.

 

I get more creeped out by the power disparity between the couple. A 21 year old girl marrying a 50 year old man has a huge maturity and cultural gap going against the marriage and I worry that the older partner is easily in a position to dominate the younger.

 

There is also the threat of loneliness. If I married a 19 year old tomorrow odds are good she will live 15-20 years longer then I will, probably alone.

 

I have no problems with exceptions to these general standards though, absent direct revelation I do not intend to be one, but the standards exist for a reason.

 

This would not have been a popular opinion with some of the early leaders.

 

They would have found the very concept of a singles ward very very odd.

[The Nehor]

The segregations should be voluntary, though, as they are in the Church, with singles able to go to any ward they want to meet people.

 

They are not. If a 45 year old man wanted to come to a YSA Singles ward to meet college-aged girls to date he would most likely be politely asked to not come. If he persisted the invitations to leave would become less polite. 

[Meadowchik]

It can be, atleast when it is voluntary.

[jpv]

What about those married wards, setup as singles wards, those are weird.  Never understood that, especially as in the mission field, young marrieds are expected to have real callings.

[Stargazer]

They are not. If a 45 year old man wanted to come to a YSA Singles ward to meet college-aged girls to date he would most likely be politely asked to not come. If he persisted the invitations to leave would become less polite. 

 

Is this from personal observation?  Or are you guessing this would be the case?  I'm having a hard time imagining a 45-year-old man being less-than-politely confronted while attempting to attend a YSA sacrament meeting, or social activity.  As I've pointed out, I am 63 years old, and due to my calling I am technically a member of our stake's YSA branch.  They haven't yet forbidden me from attending branch social activities.  And I've attended a few. 

 

The standard for membership in a YSA branch or ward is age 18 thru 30.  There doesn't seem to be a rule against someone simply showing up for meetings.  Not that I've heard, anyway.

 

Why would a 30 year old woman being married to a 45 year old man be such a wild-eyed stretch of the imagination, anyway?

 

I'm still wondering at this mysterious maturity gap you keep mentioning, such as between a 21 year old woman and a 50 year old man.  Most 21 year old women I am aware would be able to run rings around any given 50 year old guy.  I don't think women are quite the pushovers you seem to think they are. 

 

Quite frankly, I'd be scared to marry a 21 year old woman, or even a 30 year old.  I couldn't keep up with her -- not without shedding 60+ pounds and getting my cardio-vascular system back into shape anyway.  She'd probably drive me to an early grave.  And collect my life insurance on top of that. 

[Five Solas]

...

On a less complimentary level those who make it to 30-35 in the church without marriage, particularly guys for some reason, are usually not the pick of the litter or the salt of the earth. They tend to be broken, awkward, and sometimes downright creepy. They need salvation as much as anyone else but I personally find it hard not to wonder what the hell I am doing with these people. Maybe that is pride. I don't know. In any case I would not want many of them around my 22 year old sister, let alone trying to date her. Harsh but true.

It is harsh, but it's consistent with my own experience in the LDS Single Adult program.  I was definitely an anomaly during my time in it.  And I suppose we must admire the efficacy of the YSA program that so very few males with professional careers, good physical health and heterosexual inclinations ever make through YSA to SA.  Don't know what the percentage is who do--but it must be quite small.  

 

It was very different for women in the program.  I recall several of them had careers and were highly social and competent.  And it was the women who taught the Gospel Doctrine class on Sundays and generally took charge and organized the events.  Bit of a gender role reversal in the SA program, mostly driven by necessity as I think back. 

 

Thanks for sharing, Nehor

 

--Erik

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm 30 in a YSA ward and in a terrible position for dating. The only girls in the ward I like are 23 and 22. I feel so screwed. If it helps I have the mentality of a 21 year old and been told I look 24.

[Garden Girl]

Well my fellow posters... this has been interesting...

Most of you know me fairly well from my posts... You also know that I am widowed... going on 17 years... I was 20 when I met my dear one... he was 37... 17 years older than me.  We had 38 years of a very happy marriage together... I was 58 when he died suddenly at age 74 (unexpected complications following a routine surgery).  We always knew from the beginning that I would most likely be alone for a number of years, although I didn't think it would be as many.   But he was absolutely the right one for me... I was quite mature for my age and looked more grown up... I grew up in the 40's and 50's which made a difference from today's culture, etc.  We loved the same things...

Let me tell you how we met... It was summer and I had come home from my first year at BYU Provo... I took what I thought would be a summer job before going back to BYU for a 2nd year.  I worked for a large utility company... it had an employee cafeteria... on breaks the employees would go to the cafeteria for refreshments or lunch, etc.  This one morning I was heading down the hallway to the cafeteria... I was by myself and as I walked a man was approaching coming from the cafeteria... we passed each other... he said good morning and smiled at me... I walked past him a short distance and stopped and turned around to look after him... he had stopped and had turned around and was looking at me... we both smiled and his eyes were so warm...

The next day when I was in the cafeteria he came over and asked if he could sit with me... That  began a friendship that quickly became deeper.  When he found out how old I was he was hesitant, but we were so compatible we continued...

I  was also hesitant because he was non-LDS, but by then I was a goner...

It was difficult for my TBM parents... I finally broke their hearts when I eloped to Las Vegas, something I never imagined for myself... But they eventually came to love my husband very much because he was a truly wonderful person and husband... I reactivated in Church 3 years prior to his death.

And as I've told before, a year and one day after his death I was in the Portland Temple being sealed as his eternal companion...  

 

GG

 

 

[Russell C McGregor]

I wonder if the thread originator chose the word "segregation" so that he could collect some statements from Mormons, which he could then claim were in favour of "segregation" in other contexts?

Howsoever that may be, I've heard of single people who say they feel out of place in family wards. I've heard of people who found more "prospects" in singles wards.

And I've also heard that EV Protestants regularly drive past churches of their own denomination in order to attend worship services with people they physically resemble, in terms of skin colour.

Just incidentally.

[The Nehor]

Is this from personal observation?  Or are you guessing this would be the case?  I'm having a hard time imagining a 45-year-old man being less-than-politely confronted while attempting to attend a YSA sacrament meeting, or social activity.  As I've pointed out, I am 63 years old, and due to my calling I am technically a member of our stake's YSA branch.  They haven't yet forbidden me from attending branch social activities.  And I've attended a few. 

 

The standard for membership in a YSA branch or ward is age 18 thru 30.  There doesn't seem to be a rule against someone simply showing up for meetings.  Not that I've heard, anyway.

 

Why would a 30 year old woman being married to a 45 year old man be such a wild-eyed stretch of the imagination, anyway?

 

I'm still wondering at this mysterious maturity gap you keep mentioning, such as between a 21 year old woman and a 50 year old man.  Most 21 year old women I am aware would be able to run rings around any given 50 year old guy.  I don't think women are quite the pushovers you seem to think they are. 

 

Quite frankly, I'd be scared to marry a 21 year old woman, or even a 30 year old.  I couldn't keep up with her -- not without shedding 60+ pounds and getting my cardio-vascular system back into shape anyway.  She'd probably drive me to an early grave.  And collect my life insurance on top of that.

Personal observation. There are exceptions. My bishop actually asked me to stay in my YSA Ward after I had aged out so I could continue to run and oversee out Sunday School program (I was president and teacher) but he knew I was not likely to creep out the younger girls and had more of an older brother relationship with them and dated girls in their late 20s.

I do not think women are pushovers but I also do not find that women have a massive maturity advantage.