Tea And The Word Of Wisdom

[jkwilliams]

Does Victor L. Ludlow give a source that names who the "early church leaders" are that identified hot drinks as tea and coffee?  I'd really be interested in reading the actual source and quotes. Thanks.

 

The original sources is Hyrum Smith. Don't have time to look up the reference.

[JAHS]

Does Victor L. Ludlow give a source that names who the "early church leaders" are that identified hot drinks as tea and coffee?  I'd really be interested in reading the actual source and quotes. Thanks.

Here's one I know of:

"Joel H. Johnson, with whose family the Prophet Joseph Smith was intimate, relates that on a Sabbath day in July (1833) following the giving of the "Word of Wisdom," when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng
 

In the Word of Wisdom, the Lord revealed that the following substances are harmful:

Alcoholic drinks (see D&C 89:5-7).

Tobacco (see D&C 89:8 ).

Tea and coffee (see D&C 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee).

When people purposefully take anything harmful into their bodies, they are not living in harmony with the Word of Wisdom. Illegal drugs can especially destroy those who use them. The abuse of prescription drugs is also destructive spiritually and physically.

The Lord also declared in the Word of Wisdom that the following foods are good:

Vegetables and fruits, which should be used “with prudence and thanksgiving” (see D&C 89:10-11).

The flesh “of beasts and of the fowls of the air,” which is “to be used sparingly” (see D&C 89:12-13).

Grains such as wheat, rice, and oats, which are “the staff of life” (see D&C 89:14-17).

 

 

Not exactly doctrine but explains the mission rules at least:  no tea made of cha leaves (Camellia sinensis)

 

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1985/04/yao-shi?lang=eng

 

I am surprised I can't find anything itemizing "green tea" or "cha leaf" tea.  I remember reading an Ensign article that describes a GA who avoids tea in social situations by drinking hot water with lemon in it or something similar (it wasn't in Asia:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/08/observing-the-word-of-wisdom-politely?lang=eng )

 

The Word of Wisdom is a huge sacrifice for the Asian Saints I know of precisely because they are generally asked to give up all forms of the cha leaf tea, including black, white and green.  For that reason, even if our local leaders are at times okaying green tea for optional medicinal reasons, I choose not to use it in recognition that it is a sacrifice for many other Saints and this is how I can honor them in a small way and show that they are a part of my community.

 

As to using coffee as an actual drug for asthma, if there is not a substitute that works better with less side effects that she can afford...if you can't identify what it is in the coffee that is beneficial, I would class that under the requirement for drugs, not to be used for recreation or abused but okay  it is needed for health reasons, another as good option is not available.  My opinion of course.

Edited August 24, 2015 by calmoriah

[ALarson]

Here's one I know of:

"Joel H. Johnson, with whose family the Prophet Joseph Smith was intimate, relates that on a Sabbath day in July (1833) following the giving of the "Word of Wisdom," when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)

Thanks for the source!  (and to you too jkwilliams )

[Calm]

Mormon Tea = ok.  Even though Mormon Tea is a species of ephedra.

Not all species are the same though apparently:

 

Ephedra, popularly known in the western U.S. as “desert tea,” “Mormon tea,” “squaw tea,” or “Mexican tea,” contains no harmful alkaloids but is high in vitamin C. If taken in large quantities it decreases the heart rate and thus may decrease blood pressure. Earlier claims that it helped treat venereal disease and sore throats are probably unfounded.

It’s important, however, not to confuse the North American Ephedra with the Chinese Ephedra, Ma Huang, which contains a large quantity of ephedrine, a salt of an alkaloid which strongly stimulates the nerves and thus should be used only as a drug under a doctor’s care.

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/08/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

 

 

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-569-mormon%20tea.aspx?activeingredientid=569&activeingredientname=mormon%20tea

 

Mormon tea is made from a plant, Ephedra nevadensis. The dried branches are boiled in water to make the tea. People use it as a beverage and as a medicine.

Be careful not to confuse Mormon tea (Ephedra nevadensis) with ephedra (Ephedra sinica and other ephedra species). Unlike these other plants, Mormon tea does not contain ephedrine, an unsafe stimulant.

As a medicine, people take Mormon tea for sexually transmitted diseases such as syphilis and gonorrhea. It is also used for colds, kidney disorders, and as a “spring” tonic.

 

How does it work?

The tannins in Mormon tea have a drying (astringent) effect and can reduce body secretions such as mucus. This might explain its use for colds. There isn't enough information to know how Mormon tea might work for other uses such as kidney problems and sexually transmitted diseases.

 

[KevinG]

Parsing the Word of Wisdom for ingredients is missing the point...

 

It is to be adapted to ourselves.  That takes personal revelation and butting out of other people's business.

 

For years my wife drank Coke (still does) and I avoided caffeinated drinks.  We both got Temple recommends.  I always wondered why she felt differently than I about sodas with caffiene but it was not my business to dictate to my wife how to interpret her revelations.  Then I got a job with a long commute, and rationalized that a Dr. Pepper in the afternoon to stay alert wasn't such a bad thing, after my wife drinks Coke with no problems.  That is when the stress of the job, combined with afternoon caffeine and sugar intake revealed a heart valve issue that was hidden.  My doctor's advice was get off the Dr. Pepper.  

 

This was a huge lesson in how we need to take the revelations that God provides and liken them unto ourselves.  The fact that the Lord didn't warn my wife against Coke, but warned me against Dr. Pepper was completely consistent with what each of us needed.  This means:

 

- Don't rationalize away promptings when we read scriptures

- Don't make the opposite mistake and preach personal direction over the pulpit as general doctrine (preaching vegetarianism as the WoW, etc.)

- Apply the Gospel to self first and then once perfected start applying it to others.  In other words other than being a Bishop or parent, we should probably not be messing with others revelations.  Counsel and teach certainly, but respect agency and love unselfishly even with those who we do not understand.

[Doctor Steuss]

Not all species are the same though apparently:

 

[...]

 

(From WedMD):  "Mormon tea is made from a plant, Ephedra nevadensis"

It is (or was, rather) my understanding that it's made from ephedra funerea (I reckon that's the price for doing so much hiking around Death Valley), wich does contain pseudoephedrine. But, it looks like I was mistaken, and it is generally the nevadensis, which doesn't appear to contain any alkaloids (which would definitely take much of the medicinal value winds out of its sails).

 

Thank you for the correction.

 

 

 

Edited to add:  Looking at pictures of both species, it's crazy how much alike they look (yet only one of them will give you vroom-vroom)

Edited August 24, 2015 by Doctor Steuss

[provoman]

I was just providing a few resources.  I am not sure the Church has issued guidelines regarding different types of "tea."

That said, Victor Ludlow's assessment appears reasonable. The second hyperlink also.

Thanks,

-Smac

Why provide a quote that attempts to define something for the Church?

[Calm]

I like this blog from a fellow FM member on the subject (the blog itself is not connected to FM):

 

http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2011/04/the-green-tea-question/

 

He did a survey that he states shows little save about the people he hangs out with, but it is interesting to see how the conversation is constructed and what some people thought.

 

As I mentioned earlier, in the absence of specific proscriptions, we must learn all we can about the issue and be guided by principles instead of governed by rules. Here is a short list of some principles to keep in mind when selecting which teas to avoid and which to accept:

• Avoid addiction. This isn’t just a good idea, it’s fundamental to the purpose of life. We cannot hope to overcome the tests of life if we have already sacrificed our free will to some unholy Mammon. Bear in mind also, that the addict rarely recognizes his own addiction.
• Health. This is one of the promised blessings for those who obey the Word of Wisdom, and as I quoted the First Presidency saying earlier, “Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.”
• Covenant. Another of the blessings promised is that the “destroying angel will pass by them and not slay them” (D&C 89:21). This is a reference to the first passover in Egypt when the Israelites publicly displayed their covenant status and their faith in Jehovah by painting their door posts with lambs’ blood; then the destroyer “passed over” them (Exodus 12:23). Maybe, like painting your house with blood, certain tea restrictions don’t make intuitive sense. And maybe there is something grander at work here.
• Obedience. The Lord is more interested in seeing our willingness to follow Him than in seeing how smart we think we are (2 Nephi 9:28-29).
• Sustaining local leaders. If you are concerned about where to draw the line, talk to your bishop about it at your next temple recommend interview. He is a judge in Israel and his judgment is authoritative. Follow his counsel.
• Unity in Zion. Be careful making yourself the exception. Remember that there are thousands of Japanese converts who took a leap of faith by abandoning a cherished cultural practice (and identity) to qualify for baptism. “For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things” (D&C 78:6).
• Personal revelation. If you have been baptized and confirmed, you have the gift of the Holy Ghost who “shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance” (John 14:26). Live up to your privilege and ask for revelation!

The great thing about principles is that they are widely applicable! This means you can also use these and other principles to help you in deciding what kinds of restaurants to eat at, clothing to wear, whom to vote for, and what to do with your free time. The Lord has withheld specifying rules in many cases so that we can learn to identify and adopt principles, thus becoming our own governors — becoming free. It also helps us draw closer to Him in prayer, knowing we need His personal guidance; we can’t just flip open the code book and have every eventuality spelled out for us.

 

[Tacenda]

Parsing the Word of Wisdom for ingredients is missing the point...

 

It is to be adapted to ourselves.  That takes personal revelation and butting out of other people's business.

 

For years my wife drank Coke (still does) and I avoided caffeinated drinks.  We both got Temple recommends.  I always wondered why she felt differently than I about sodas with caffiene but it was not my business to dictate to my wife how to interpret her revelations.  Then I got a job with a long commute, and rationalized that a Dr. Pepper in the afternoon to stay alert wasn't such a bad thing, after my wife drinks Coke with no problems.  That is when the stress of the job, combined with afternoon caffeine and sugar intake revealed a heart valve issue that was hidden.  My doctor's advice was get off the Dr. Pepper.  

 

This was a huge lesson in how we need to take the revelations that God provides and liken them unto ourselves.  The fact that the Lord didn't warn my wife against Coke, but warned me against Dr. Pepper was completely consistent with what each of us needed.  This means:

 

- Don't rationalize away promptings when we read scriptures

- Don't make the opposite mistake and preach personal direction over the pulpit as general doctrine (preaching vegetarianism as the WoW, etc.)

- Apply the Gospel to self first and then once perfected start applying it to others.  In other words other than being a Bishop or parent, we should probably not be messing with others revelations.  Counsel and teach certainly, but respect agency and love unselfishly even with those who we do not understand.

 

I agree!  Now they're saying caffeine helps with Alzheimer's...

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-11-05-caffeine-alzheimers_x.htm

 

"Caffeine is the most widely used psychoactive drug in the world," says Arendash, a researcher at the Byrd Alzheimer Institute in Tampa. "We think it might protect against Alzheimer's."

[Calm]

It is (or was, rather) my understanding that it's made from ephedra funerea (I reckon that's the price for doing so much hiking around Death Valley), wich does contain pseudoephedrine. But, it looks like I was mistaken, and it is generally the nevadensis, which doesn't appear to contain any alkaloids (which would definitely take much of the medicinal value winds out of its sails).

 

Thank you for the correction.

Glad you are hanging out here long enough to do it.    I have missed you a great deal.

[Doctor Steuss]

Glad you are hanging out here long enough to do it.    I have missed you a great deal.

Awe, shucks.  *blush*

[Calm]

The whole staying away from hot drinks falls apart because members drink hot chocolate and hot cider and more. 

There was a study comparing hot tea drinkers to lukewarm tea drinkers which demonstrated the former were much more likely to get throat cancer, iirc.  Whether it was purely the hotness or was a combination of the heat and the tea or something else in their culture (there were two ethnic groups iirc where one drank scalding hot tea and another lukewarm), I don't know but it seems to me common sense not to try to develop a tolerance to scalding hot liquid, whether coffee, tea, chocolate or cider....though it seems to me more coffee and tea is drunk extremely hot than the other two which are generally served in my experience comfortingly warm and if not, most people wait for them to cool down.  If it hurts, there is a reason why.

[Calm]

I agree!  Now they're saying caffeine helps with Alzheimer's...

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-11-05-caffeine-alzheimers_x.htm

 

"Caffeine is the most widely used psychoactive drug in the world," says Arendash, a researcher at the Byrd Alzheimer Institute in Tampa. "We think it might protect against Alzheimer's."

"might protect" is not for sure.  Mainly seniors have significant problems with sleep and adding caffeine into the mix might actually cause more harm than the potential aid.  And if one was taking it strictly for the caffeine it is easy enough to still avoid coffee.  And excess amounts of sugar or artificial sweetener.  No Doze works very well and can be a precise measured amount.

[Doctor Steuss]

"might protect" is not for sure.  Mainly seniors have significant problems with sleep and adding caffeine into the mix might actually cause more harm than the potential aid.  And if one was taking it strictly for the caffeine it is easy enough to still avoid coffee.  And excess amounts of sugar or artificial sweetener.  No Doze works very well and can be a precise measured amount.

I'm too lazy to go searching, but from what I recall, the studies that have shown protective attributes/abilities have been dosed in the gram+/day range (which is where you start to see negative effects in other areas of the body).  So, it's kind of a give-take.  You protect the noggin, but at the cost of it's chauffeur.

[Scott Lloyd]

Beverages that are not derived from tea leaves are not, in fact, tea. Mint tea, rose hip tea and other kinds of herbal teas are not tea at all. Applying the word "tea" to them is a misnomer.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

Beverages that are not derived from tea leaves are not, in fact tea. Mint tea, rose hip tea and other kinds of herbal teas are not tea at all. Applying the word "tea" to them is a misnomer.

 

I wasn't talking about those. White, green, and black tea are all made from the same plant.

[Scott Lloyd]

I wasn't talking about those. White, green, and black tea are all made from the same plant.

I understand that.

 

I was making the point that one cannot rationalize drinking any form of tea that comes from the tea plant on the basis that various forms of so-called "herbal tea" are allowed, since the "herbal teas" are not tea at all.

 

The students you speak of in your OP are wrong in my view, and a priesthood leader would be justified in withholding a temple recommend from them due to their disobedience pertaining to the Word of Wisdom.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

I'm too lazy to go searching, but from what I recall, the studies that have shown protective attributes/abilities have been dosed in the gram+/day range (which is where you start to see negative effects in other areas of the body).  So, it's kind of a give-take.  You protect the noggin, but at the cost of it's chauffeur.

I would never choose my health routine by the latest report in the news.  They overstate the claims of the studies way too often for one thing.  They don't usually discuss potential interactions and the studies generally focus on only one aspect of health while disregarding others...one needs to balance as you say the give and take, especially given that individuals' sensitivities to drugs (and any herb or plant used medicinally would be a drug) vary so much.

[Stargazer]

Darn, I just typed a long answer to this, and then hit the wrong key and it vanished. 

 

But Scott is absolutely right about herbal "tea".  The fact of the matter is that the word "tea" properly refers to only ONE plant, Camellia sinensis. 

 

The confusion comes about because the word "tea" is too often used in the United States to refer to a method of preparation, namely steeping herbs in hot water.  This method has a name, "infusion".  The most common method of preparation of tea is to make an infusion of the dried leaves.  Other herbs, such as peppermint, are NOT teas when infused in hot water.  It is THAT PARTICULAR PLANT, not the method of consumption or preparation that is the issue with the WoW.

 

If it were not so, then LDS in Great Britain could not eat their evening meal -- for the simple reason that the evening meal is very frequenty referred to as "tea".  This is because drinking tea was a rather universal event in the evening after the workday, and tea was and still is invariably served.  It became extremely common for people to call the evening meal "tea", or "teatime", even if no tea was served!  I ran into this when living briefly there back in the early 70's.  I was visiting with an LDS family one afternoon early in our sojourn in England, and they asked me if I wanted to "stay for tea".  I was shocked!  I refused of course, without saying why, but later found to my chagrin that they weren't drinking tea, they were having the evening meal, and called it TEA.

 

I get really impatient with Pharisees who won't drink peppermint tea because of the word "tea", but who are perfectly content to eat peppermint candy.  Talk about straining at gnats.

[KevinG]

 

I get really impatient with Pharisees who won't drink peppermint tea because of the word "tea", but who are perfectly content to eat peppermint candy.  Talk about straining at gnats.

 

It is extremely entertaining to be lectured by non-believers that I'm not Pharisaical enough because I don't interpret LDS doctrines in the way that non-LDS critiquing the church interpret them.  Its why I come to these boards.  

[jkwilliams]

It is extremely entertaining to be lectured by non-believers that I'm not Pharisaical enough because I don't interpret LDS doctrines in the way that non-LDS critiquing the church interpret them.  Its why I come to these boards.  

 

Who is lecturing you?

[KevinG]

Who is lecturing you?

 

Today it's Skeptical on beliefs about race.

 

Other days it's other posters telling me I don't really know what my doctrines are, or what my leaders teach.

 

Despite my sarcasm, there really is frequent strawman abuse among critics of the Mormons.

[Stargazer]

It is extremely entertaining to be lectured by non-believers that I'm not Pharisaical enough because I don't interpret LDS doctrines in the way that non-LDS critiquing the church interpret them.  Its why I come to these boards.  

 

It seems apparent that you think I'm lecturing you, since you quoted a part of my post. 

 

Do you think I'm a non-believer?  Do you take offense at the way I characterized LDS who go off on odd doctrinal tangents because of misunderstandings over the meanings of words?  I assure you that I am a TBM.  And I've run into non-members who have told me some pretty incredible things about what we believe because some member of their acquaintance did not understand his or her own doctrine or belief, and then promulgated it as if it were true.

[Rain]

Parsing the Word of Wisdom for ingredients is missing the point...

It is to be adapted to ourselves. That takes personal revelation and butting out of other people's business.

For years my wife drank Coke (still does) and I avoided caffeinated drinks. We both got Temple recommends. I always wondered why she felt differently than I about sodas with caffiene but it was not my business to dictate to my wife how to interpret her revelations. Then I got a job with a long commute, and rationalized that a Dr. Pepper in the afternoon to stay alert wasn't such a bad thing, after my wife drinks Coke with no problems. That is when the stress of the job, combined with afternoon caffeine and sugar intake revealed a heart valve issue that was hidden. My doctor's advice was get off the Dr. Pepper.

This was a huge lesson in how we need to take the revelations that God provides and liken them unto ourselves. The fact that the Lord didn't warn my wife against Coke, but warned me against Dr. Pepper was completely consistent with what each of us needed. This means:

- Don't rationalize away promptings when we read scriptures

- Don't make the opposite mistake and preach personal direction over the pulpit as general doctrine (preaching vegetarianism as the WoW, etc.)

- Apply the Gospel to self first and then once perfected start applying it to others. In other words other than being a Bishop or parent, we should probably not be messing with others revelations. Counsel and teach certainly, but respect agency and love unselfishly even with those who we do not understand.

Agreed.

Definition of tea from dictionary.com:

1.the dried and prepared leaves of a shrub, Camelliasinensis, from which a somewhat bitter, aromatic beverage is prepared by infusion in hot water.

2.the shrub itself, extensively cultivated in China,Japan, India, etc., and having fragrant white flowers.

3.the beverage so prepared, served hot or iced.

4.any kind of leaves, flowers, etc., so used, or any plant yielding them.

5. any of various infusions prepared from the leaves,flowers, etc., of other plants, and used as beverages or medicines.

6.beef bouillon.

7.British. any meal, whether a light snack or oneconsisting of several courses, eaten in the lateafternoon or in the evening; any meal other thandinner, eaten after the middle of the afternoon.[\quote]

Definition of infusion from dictionary.com

1. the act or process of infusing.

2. something that is infused.

3.a liquid extract, as tea, prepared by steeping orsoaking.

4.Pharmacology.the steeping or soaking of a crude drug inwater.the liquid so prepared.

5. Medicine/Medical.the introduction of a saline or other solution into a vein.the solution used.[\quote]

Word of wisdom as described by Preach My Gospel, but leaving out grains etc:

It teaches very specifically that we are to avoid harmful substances, including alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee. We must also avoid harmful drugs in any form. To be baptized and confirmed, those you teach must give up these substances. People who obey the Word of Wisdom are more receptive to spiritual truths.

Your mission president will answer questions about whether other specific substances in your culture are included in the Word of Wisdom.

[\quote]

The whole tea/infusion idea makes me laugh sometimes. The dictionary shows that black tea is an infusion And a tea and herbal tea is a tea and an infusion.

Given that everything I have seen so far officially says "tea" and doesn't specify farther I figure I can only teach that the the word of wisdom says "tea". I shouldn't be saying that purple tea is ok to drink and compost tea is not. I should teach what is officially said (tea) and then like keving says, let everyone have their own inspiration.

If my college child were to come home saying orange tea is ok I would state what the church says officially and then ask them if they had prayed and received their own inspiration on the topic or if they were just going by what everyone else said.

I apologize about the quotes. I am still only able to access this site by data on my phone. Some day maybe I will figure out the error.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Rain