Could Joseph Smith Really See Buried Treasure In The Seer Stone?

[cinepro]

Dan Vogel has documented (and visited) up to 18 sites where Joseph Smith claimed to have seen "buried treasure", and helped others to dig for it.  In his infamous 1826 trial, Joseph said:

 

 

That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore;

 

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/New_York_v._Joseph_Smith_%281826%29

 

 

 

 

In light of the recent illuminations on the seer stone, I would ask any believing LDS the following question:

 

Do you believe that Joseph Smith could actually look into the seer stone and see actual "coin deposits" and gold mines* located in the American Northeast?

 

 

 

 

*Other than Moroni's Gold Plates

 

 

[SmileyMcGee]

Given the relative poverty and lack of riches held by the Smiths during Joseph's venture into scrying, I am compelled to believe that he likely had no real ability to see or find riches. Which raises another question: why in the world would you trust the treasure finding abilities of a person who has no treasure???? It's like attending one of those real estate seminars hosted by people who can't afford to not live with their parents.

Edited August 13, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[Danzo]

Dan Vogel has documented (and visited) up to 18 sites where Joseph Smith claimed to have seen "buried treasure", and helped others to dig for it.  In his infamous 1826 trial, Joseph said:

 

 

 

 

In light of the recent illuminations on the seer stone, I would ask any believing LDS the following question:

 

Do you believe that Joseph Smith could actually look into the seer stone and see actual "coin deposits" and gold mines* located in the American Northeast?

 

 

 

 

*Other than Moroni's Gold Plates

 

Is this an actual transcript of the trial?

[CA Steve]

At the time he was using it for treasure seeking was it even a seer stone?

[Danzo]

I found this commentary on http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2002-fair-conference/2002-the-1826-trial-of-joseph-smith

 

Nice discussion on this supposed record of the trial.

 

of note

 

"We know that the supposed “court record” obtained by Miss Pearsall can’t be a court record at all.

1. Misdemeanor trials were not recorded, only felony trials
2. No witness signatures–they were required in an official record
3. It appears to be a pretrial hearing
4. Pretrial hearings cannot deliver guilty verdicts"

Edited August 12, 2015 by Danzo

[JulieM]

At the time he was using it for treasure seeking was it even a seer stone?

At the time he was using it for treasure seeking was it even a seer stone?

Was it a Urim and Thummim like it was called later?

[cinepro]

Is this an actual transcript of the trial?

 

It seems fairly well established that on at least more than one occasion, Joseph Smith looked into his seer stone and claimed to see the location of treasure of some sort. 

 

http://undergroundnotes.com/graphics7/Dialogue_V27N03_211.pdf

 

So I'm just curious how other LDS evaluate these claims.  Do they really think Joseph was seeing actual buried treasure? Which, it would logically follow, is still there to this day!

[Robert F. Smith]

Is this an actual transcript of the trial?

No.  The original transcript has been lost, although we do have the original bill of costs.

[Robert F. Smith]

It seems fairly well established that on at least more than one occasion, Joseph Smith looked into his seer stone and claimed to see the location of treasure of some sort. 

 

http://undergroundnotes.com/graphics7/Dialogue_V27N03_211.pdf

 

So I'm just curious how other LDS evaluate these claims.  Do they really think Joseph was seeing actual buried treasure? Which, it would logically follow, is still there to this day!

As pointed out by SmileyMcGee, if Joseph had been a successful treasure hunter, how come he didn't promptly get rich?  How come his parents lost their nice home for want of funds to pay their mortgage?

 

Still, it appears likely that he did treasure hunting for pay, as did a number of other men and women in his day -- and on down to fairly recent times, as we can see celebrated in Erskine Caldwell's God's Little Acre (book and movie).

[Nevo]

Is this an actual transcript of the trial?

 

Yes, it is.

 

Edit: Okay, let me qualify that. It's an actual court record of the trial that was made during the trial for Justice Neely.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Nevo

[Brian 2.0]

Dan Vogel has documented (and visited) up to 18 sites where Joseph Smith claimed to have seen "buried treasure", and helped others to dig for it.  In his infamous 1826 trial, Joseph said:

 

 

 

 

In light of the recent illuminations on the seer stone, I would ask any believing LDS the following question:

 

Do you believe that Joseph Smith could actually look into the seer stone and see actual "coin deposits" and gold mines* located in the American Northeast?

 

 

 

 

*Other than Moroni's Gold Plates

 

I was about to answer this, but then I see you qualified for question for "believing LDS"  

 

I'll still answer:  No

 

But I would think you'd find some Yes answers if they came to say it here since in the other thread there were plenty there would said "why would he have a reputation if he couldn't actually find stuff?"

Edited August 13, 2015 by Brian 2.0

[JulieM]

I think this has been asked several times but I haven't seen anyone answer this question:

When did the seer stone become a Urim and Thummim? It was called this as one of the instruments used for Joseph to translate the Book of Mormon. Was it a Urim and Thummim when Joseph used it to find buried treasure?

Edited August 13, 2015 by JulieM

[bluebell]

I think this has been asked several times but I haven't seen anyone answer this question:

When did the seer stone become a Urim and Thummim? It was called this as one of the instruments used for Joseph to translate the Book of Mormon. Was it a Urim and Thummim when Joseph used it to find buried treasure?

 

Is this what you are looking for?

 

"These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters. In ancient times, Israelite priests used the Urim and Thummim to assist in receiving divine communications. Although commentators differ on the nature of the instrument, several ancient sources state that the instrument involved stones that lit up or were divinely illumin[at]ed. Latter-day Saints later understood the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer exclusively to the interpreters. Joseph Smith and others, however, seem to have understood the term more as a descriptive category of instruments for obtaining divine revelations and less as the name of a specific instrument."

[Nevo]

I think this has been asked several times but I haven't seen anyone answer this question:

When did the seer stone become a Urim and Thummim? It was called this as one of the instruments used for Joseph to translate the Book of Mormon. Was it a Urim and Thummim when Joseph used it to find buried treasure?

 

The seer stone was not called a Urim and Thummim before 1833 (even the Urim and Thummim wasn't called that before 1833).

 

In January 1833, the Latter-day Saint newspaper The Evening and the Morning Star, edited by William W. Phelps, equated “spectacles” and “interpreters” with the term “Urim and Thummim”: the Book of Mormon “was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles— (known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim).” (“The Book of Mormon,” The Evening and the Morning Star, January 1833, [2].) By 1835 Joseph Smith most often used the term “Urim and Thummim” when speaking of translation and rarely, if ever, used the terms “interpreters” or “spectacles.”

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng#17

 

Joseph Smith seems to have been referring to the seer stone as a Urim and Thummim by the end of 1841: "[W]hen Joseph Smith showed a seer stone to Wilford Woodruff in late 1841, Woodruff recorded in his journal: 'I had the privilege of seeing for the first time in my day the URIM & THUMMIM.' (Wilford Woodruff journal, Dec. 27, 1841, Church History Library, Salt Lake City.) See also Doctrine and Covenants 130:10" (https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng#21).

[mapman]

The only time he ever found anything was after he overcame any desire to get rich. So no, I don't think he could see buried treasure with the seer stone.

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes, it is.

 

Edit: Okay, let me qualify that. It's an actual court record of the trial that was made during the trial for Justice Neely.

We do not have the actual court record. It has been lost.  All we have is someone's version of it which cannot be verified.  All we have is the original bill of costs recovered by the late Rev. Wesley P. Walters, anti-Mormon par excellence.

[Robert F. Smith]

The seer stone was not called a Urim and Thummim before 1833 (even the Urim and Thummim wasn't called that before 1833).

 

 

Joseph Smith seems to have been referring to the seer stone as a Urim and Thummim by the end of 1841: "[W]hen Joseph Smith showed a seer stone to Wilford Woodruff in late 1841, Woodruff recorded in his journal: 'I had the privilege of seeing for the first time in my day the URIM & THUMMIM.' (Wilford Woodruff journal, Dec. 27, 1841, Church History Library, Salt Lake City.) See also Doctrine and Covenants 130:10" (https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng#21).

In an interview with J. L. Traughber, Jr., October 13, 1879, David Whitmer provided the following clarification:

 

With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state that he does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim and Thummim; but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone, called a “Seer Stone,” which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his face, so as to exclude the external light.  Then, a spiritual light would shine forth, and parchment would appear before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said.  Saints’ Herald, 26 (Nov 15, 1879), 341.

 

Of course, many people confused the two items.  They were not, after all, biblical scholars, and did not in fact know much about the biblical Urim & Thummim.  Heber C. Kimball reported that Brigham Young had possession of the Urim & Thummim, and Wilford Woodruff claimed that Joseph had shown him the Urim & Thummim at a meeting with the Twelve on December 27, 1841, in Nauvoo.  Yet Brigham himself reports of that same meeting:

 

I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph’s.  He . . . explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. . . . he showed us his seer stone.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Do you believe that Joseph Smith could actually look into the seer stone and see actual "coin deposits" and gold mines* located in the American Northeast?

 

 

 

 

*Other than Moroni's Gold Plates

Nope!

[ALarson]

Do you believe that Joseph Smith could actually look into the seer stone and see actual "coin deposits" and gold mines* located in the American Northeast?

No.

 

Are there any statements or records that Joseph ever located any treasure during the years he was treasure seeking?

Edited August 13, 2015 by ALarson

[mnn727]

Do you believe that Joseph Smith could actually look into the seer stone and see actual "coin deposits" and gold mines* located in the American Northeast?

 

No, magic does not work.

 

When I lived in Orlando and worked on I Drive (tourist area) I saw a sign for a Psychic convention at a hotel there and I wondered to myself, Why would real psychics need a sign?

 

Why would a very poor family use a 'magic stone' to find treasure for others?

 

Too bad God has to use fallible humans, but unfortunately that's the only kind he has to work with.

Edited August 13, 2015 by mnn727

[stemelbow]

No.

I think it's possible all this treasure seeking blew up afterward. Even considering Dan's paper you link. That's not to say Dan doesn't have any valid points or arguments, only that it's possible Joseph didn't seek out buried treasure by looking at the stone. It's also possible he did. It's possible he went along with Josiah Stowell for instance, even reluctantly, as one source puts it, to help with the labor and the people in the group looked to him for some sort of validation for the activity, which he might never actually gave but they kept thinking since he is with them working they have some hope. The stories just kind of went from there.

As it is the bill from Neeley is about all we have that is concrete on this and it doesn't say much. The stories from Purple and pearsall contradict as they were told 50+ years later anyway. No doubt there's tons of hearsay-ish type of stuff mentioned in the historic record, starting in about 1830, but that was after, when people were trying to invalidate Joseph's prophetic claims. It all becomes a little convenient.

Sure, there very well could be something to the stories that came out. And it's also possible there is nothing to them, as it seems, Joseph Smith himself tried to suggest.

[CA Steve]

 

Why would a very poor family use a 'magic stone' to find treasure for others?

 

 

It has been a while since I read about the treasure hunting but I believe he was not just looking to find treasure for others, that when they decided to hunt for treasure they formed a group with shares awarded to each person should they find any. Stowell was just the financier, if you will, to keep the project going. In fact, IIRC, one of the reasons Joseph was pursued by men seeking to take away the gold plates was that these men were part of such a group and they thought they deserved a share of the "treasure" (gold plates) Joseph said he found.

[jkwilliams]

It has been a while since I read about the treasure hunting but I believe he was not just looking to find treasure for others, that when they decided to hunt for treasure they formed a group with shares awarded to each person should they find any. Stowell was just the financier, if you will, to keep the project going. In fact, IIRC, one of the reasons Joseph was pursued by men seeking to take away the gold plates was that these men were part of such a group and they thought they deserved a share of the "treasure" (gold plates) Joseph said he found.

 

That is correct. Here's the agreement in writing:

 

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/appendix-1-agreement-of-josiah-stowell-and-others-1-november-1825?p=

 

Those who financed the endeavor received the greatest share, and then Joseph and his father received a smaller share. The ordinary diggers received an even smaller share.

[CA Steve]

That is correct. Here's the agreement in writing:

 

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/appendix-1-agreement-of-josiah-stowell-and-others-1-november-1825?p=

 

Those who financed the endeavor received the greatest share, and then Joseph and his father received a smaller share. The ordinary diggers received an even smaller share.

The passage on the newspaper introducing the "Articles of Agreement" is fascinating.

 

 

After the company was organized a second communication was received by Joseph Jr., from the "other world," advising the treasure seekers to suspend operations, as it was necessary for one of the company to die before the treasure could be secured,

   Harper the peddler, who was murdered soon after, near the place where the Catholic cemetery in this borough is now located, was one of the original members of the company, and his death was regarded by the remainder of the band as a Providential occurrence, which the "powers" had brought about for their especial benefit. The death of Harper having removed the only obstacle in the way of success, the surviving members re-commenced operations and signed an "agreement," giving the widow Harper the half of one-third of all the treasures secured. The following is the agreement, written by the old humbug, Joseph Smith, himself.

 

Articles of Agreement.

We, the undersigned, do firmly agree,  & by these presents bind ourselves, to ful fill and abide by the hereafter specified  articles:

First—That if anything of value should be  obtained at a certain place in Pennsyl vania near a Wm. Hale’s,1 supposed to be  a valuable mine of either Gold or Silver  and also to contain coined money and  bars or ingots of Gold or Silver, and at  which several hands have been at work  during a considerable part of the past  summer,2 we do agree to have it divided in  the following manner, viz.: Josiah Sto well, Calvin Stowell3 and Wm. Hale to  take two-thirds, and Charles Newton,4  Wm. I. Wiley,5 and the Widow Harper6 to  take the other third. And we further  agree that Joseph Smith, Sen. and Joseph  Smith Jr. shall be considered as having  two shares, two elevenths of all the prop erty that may be obtained, the shares to  be taken equally from each third.

Second—And we further agree, that in  consideration of the expense and labor to  which the following named persons have  been at (John F. Shephard,7 Elihu  Stowell8 and John Grant9) to consider  them as equal sharers in the mine after  all the coined money and bars or ingots  are obtained by the undersigned,  their shares to be taken out from each  share; and we further agree to remuner ate all the three above named persons in  a handsome manner for all their time,  expense and labor which they have been  or may be at, until the mine is opened,  if anything should be obtained; other wise they are to lose their time, expense  and labor.

Third—And we further agree that all  the expense which has or may accrue  until the mine is opened, shall be equally  borne by the proprietors of each third  and that after the mine is opened the ex pense shall be equally borne by each of  the sharers.

Township of Harmony, Pa., Nov. 1, 1825.

In presence of

Isaac Hale,10 (Chas. A. Newton, David Hale,11 (Jos. Smith, Sen., P. Newton.12 (Isaiah [Josiah] Stowell,   (Calvin Stowell,   (Jos. Smith, Jr.,   (Wm. I. Wiley.

[p. [4]]

[jkwilliams]

The passage on the newspaper introducing the "Articles of Agreement" is fascinating.

 

It's interesting that the JSP commentary says that the Tribune account is anachronistic in saying that Joseph had received two revelations regarding the treasure hunt:

 

There are no known JS revelations until several years later, for example, and those revelations occurred in a religious rather than treasure-seeking context. 

 

 

But the article doesn't mention revelations but rather "communication from the other world," which would be expected of someone using a peep stone or other folk-magic method. The stuff about the widow Harper is likely anachronistic, as the commentary mentions.