ERayR Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 No, you´re right. I haven´t been around "die hard genealogy buffs" who link up graves to names. ---but if someone uses ground penetrating radar they only note skeleton and gravestone without trying to link one to the other. I just don´t see how dowsing adds anything to the picture. Admittedly, I see dowsing as being akin to gazing into a crystal ball.But why is identifying the right body for the right grave important? All it does is verify a grave at that spot. Cemetery records provide the names for each plot.
ERayR Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 I read some family members' gravestones when my dad was buried next to his parents this last December. I have to admit there was some emotion stirred in me when I thought of this ground under my feet as being the final mortal residence of people I had only read about before. It is not really much of a connection but I think it can be a significant one for some people if it even moved me a bit. A memorial with just their name on it with who knows where the body is wouldn't give me the same feeling, I assume it is the same for others. It would be the difference for people in seeing a father's name on the Vietnam memorial wall and visiting where he was buried. Both significant, but different. Having a specific physical location to refer to I think adds to a sense of connection in a very insecure situation. In Asia people go and talk to and celebrate with the remains of their loved ones as well as having ancestor shrines. It seems significant there that they know the remains of what were the physical vehicle for that person is in front of them. I know I feel something when I visit my wife's and my granddaughter's graves and we had a birthday celebration there on my granddaughters birthday. I don't know if we will do it again. We shall see. 2
Gervin Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Here's something from Grant Palmer. One of the “legends of hidden treasure” that would have drawn the Smith family to Cumorah hill was the treasure adventures of Captain William (a.k.a. Robert) Kidd, the pirate. Pomeroy Tucker, who was essentially the same age as Smith, said Joseph “had learned to read works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the ‘dime novels’ of the present day. The stories of Stephen Buroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest claims for his expanding mental perceptions.”[iv] Another Palmyra native, Philetus Spear, said that Joseph Smith as a boy “had for a library a copy of the ‘Arabian Nights,’ stories of Captain Kidd, and a few novels.”[v] According to James H. Kennedy, Joseph Sr. while living in Vermont had “at times engaged in hunting for Captain Kidd’s buried treasure,” and that young Joseph’s own reading about the pirate had “made a deep impression on him.”[vi] Palmyra resident Ann Eaton added that Kidd was “his hero.”[vii] Joseph may have read Washington Irving’s short story on the adventurous life of Kidd The Pirate, whichwas published in Philadelphia in 1824 and in New York in 1825. More likely, Joseph and his family had read several of the many exaggerated ‘dime novel’ knock-offs about Kidd and other pirates which were based on the 1724 and 1728 popular two-volume, A General History of Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious Pyrates, by Daniel Defoe.[viii]Do people generally agree or disagree with Palmer's conclusion that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni/Meroni," is connected with the ilhas [islands] de Comoro"/"Camora," the Moroni/Meroni settlements, and these pirate adventures'"?
CA Steve Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Well, of course, Steve, but that all begs the question. After all, it isn't that the scholars are "unable to define a difference between" magic and religion (as you put it), but rather that magic and religion cannot be differentiated -- even though careless parties think that they are very easily differentiated. That is the nub of the problem, and it is something which historians and scholars of religion have long had to come to grips with: Why is it that virtually all religions are indistinguishable from magic? There are indeed a lot of ordinary folks who believe that magic & religion are very different, until they carefully evaluate their premises and the actual function of religion in real life. Then it slowly but surely becomes apparent that any religious cult (official or otherwise) is indistinguishable from magic, including the formulaic prayers and liturgies, the ultimate objectives, authority, the supernatural, etc. As they say in Rebecca Frankl and Philip Stein, Anthropology of Religion, Magic, and Witchcraft (Boston: Allyn & Bacon, 2005), 161, “Magic gives us control and divination gives us knowledge—two of the major functions of religion. Magic deals with supernatural forces and thus is a religious phenomenon.” It seems, then that "careless parties" would probably include both modern day believers and those in JS time who attempt to distance themselves from aspects of the religious/magical practices they viewed as purely magical.Regardless of the lack of scholarly distinction, the question is what did the very non scholarly believers in JS time view as magic and what did they view as religious.So even if you are correct, that there is no scholarly distinction, the question that interest me, is the effort to make such a distinction and why, by both those in JS time and nowadays. I suspect such a distinction is/was made by many, based on what makes(ed) them uncomfortable, and what is acceptable by society at large. Edited August 16, 2015 by CA Steve
Jeanne Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) I know I feel something when I visit my wife's and my granddaughter's graves and we had a birthday celebration there on my granddaughters birthday. I don't know if we will do it again. We shall see.That must have been a mix of joy and loss. But I think that was a nice thing to do..Good for you and your family members. I hope it helped to join such courage and love together. Edited August 16, 2015 by Jeanne
ERayR Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) That must have been a mix of joy and loss. But I think that was a nice thing to do..Good for you and your family members. I hope it helped to join such courage and love together. It was. We were joined by a couple of my granddaughters very close friends. Much sadness for our shared loss and much joy for our having known her. She had such an impact for a quiet 16 year old. Much as her quiet grandmother had on those who knew her. Edited August 17, 2015 by ERayR
Russell C McGregor Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Dan Vogel has documented (and visited) up to 18 sites where Joseph Smith claimed to have seen "buried treasure", and helped others to dig for it. In his infamous 1826 trial, Joseph said: In light of the recent illuminations on the seer stone, I would ask any believing LDS the following question: Do you believe that Joseph Smith could actually look into the seer stone and see actual "coin deposits" and gold mines* located in the American Northeast? *Other than Moroni's Gold Plates Prior to that, the more important question is: do I trust the source? Answer: I don't. Meaning, I am unaware of a trustworthy source that records Joseph actually claiming to "look into the seer stone and see actual 'coin deposits' and gold mines."So, what was the question again?
Robert F. Smith Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Do people generally agree or disagree with Palmer's conclusion that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni/Meroni," is connected with the ilhas [islands] de Comoro"/"Camora," the Moroni/Meroni settlements, and these pirate adventures'"?People in general have never heard of the issue, and most Mormons have never heard of the question. However, among scholars who have taken a close look, there is no evidence that Joseph Smith had immediate access to books or maps of the area. However, if he did, there is this to consider: The name for the Comoros Islands comes from Arabic Juzur al-Qumur “Islands of the Moon” (Arabic al-Qumuri > qamar, qamara “moon”); Moroni, the capital city, comes from Muruni “In the Heart of the Fire,” referring to nearby volcano Mount Karthala. Could Joseph Smith have known of them? FAIRMORMON pretty much puts that puppy to bed online at http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/Comoros_Islands_and_Moroni . 2
Robert F. Smith Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 It seems, then that "careless parties" would probably include both modern day believers and those in JS time who attempt to distance themselves from aspects of the religious/magical practices they viewed as purely magical.Regardless of the lack of scholarly distinction, the question is what did the very non scholarly believers in JS time view as magic and what did they view as religious.So even if you are correct, that there is no scholarly distinction, the question that interest me, is the effort to make such a distinction and why, by both those in JS time and nowadays. I suspect such a distinction is/was made by many, based on what makes(ed) them uncomfortable, and what is acceptable by society at large.Yes, I can go along with all that. The lack of perspective by the hoi-polloi will always be a problem for them.
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