Could Joseph Smith Really See Buried Treasure In The Seer Stone?

[jkwilliams]

But Stowell could have hired him because of his claimed specialness of seeing gold plates, but paid him for his labor. He was paid, as it seems, as if he were one of the hired people to do the actual labor. nothing special was given him.

Except all the testimony, friendly or otherwise, has Joseph looking at the stone to find Stowell's treasure (unsuccessfully, of course). You can dismiss the accounts as cute campfire stories, but that's what we've got.

[stemelbow]

Except all the testimony, friendly or otherwise, has Joseph looking at the stone to find Stowell's treasure (unsuccessfully, of course). You can dismiss the accounts as cute campfire stories, but that's what we've got.

Joseph was asked if he got paid for money digging, not for looking at a stone. Stowell does not say he paid Joseph for looking at a stone. He did say Joseph looked at a stone and saw his house and such, but did not say he looked at a stone to find treasure.

[ALarson]

Stemelbow, are you disputing that Joseph used the seer stone for treasure seeking or just that he got paid for doing this?

 

It even states in the church essay that he used his seer stone to search for buried treasure (and in the footnote it discusses how he was paid for it)

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”¹⁸ As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.¹⁹

 

Footnote:

 

Joseph did not hide his well-known early involvement in treasure seeking. In 1838, he published responses to questions frequently asked of him. “Was not Jo Smith a money digger,” one question read. “Yes,” Joseph answered, “but it was never a very profitable job to him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.” (Selections from Elders’ Journal, July 1838, 

 

Edited August 13, 2015 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

Stemelbow, are you disputing that Joseph used the seer stone for treasure seeking or just that he got paid for doing this?

 

It even states in the church essay that he used his seer stone to search for buried treasure:

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

I may be wrong, but I think his position is that he did the treasure seeking pro bono, and only charged for manual labor.

[ALarson]

I may be wrong, but I think his position is that he did the treasure seeking pro bono, and only charged for manual labor.

Not according to the footnotes in the essay.  Look at my edited post above.

[jkwilliams]

Not according to the footnotes in the essay.  Look at my edited post above.

I know. I completely agree with you and the church, apparently. I'm just trying to figure out stem's position.

[ALarson]

I know. I completely agree with you and the church, apparently. I'm just trying to figure out stem's position.

Yes, it's puzzling as to why he's hung up on whether or not Joseph was paid for his treasure seeking.

[jkwilliams]

Yes, it's puzzling as to why he's hung up on whether or not Joseph was paid for his treasure seeking.

Probably for the same reason that's troubling to others. Saying you can look in a stone and find treasure is "cute," like a Ouija board or a Magic 8 ball. Charging money can get you prosecuted for fraud.

[ALarson]

Probably for the same reason that's troubling to others. Saying you can look in a stone and find treasure is "cute," like a Ouija board or a Magic 8 ball. Charging money can get you prosecuted for fraud.

Yes, but even the church admits that Joseph was paid for his treasure seeking.

 

Oh well...

Edited August 13, 2015 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

Yes, but even the church admits that Joseph was paid for his treasure seeking.

 

Oh well...

Hence, the people who are upset about the seer stone. But they shouldn't be because (take your pick) if they didn't know about it, it's their fault; it's no weirder than the Urim and Thummim; people with a strong testimony aren't bothered by it; it's just an excuse to disbelieve so you can go out and have a beer.

[cinepro]

So, just to clarify, you believe he could/did find lost items?

 

That's what I don't understand.  Do Church members (who have given the matter any thought) think Joseph was actually seeing real buried treasures in the seer stone, and if so, by what power?  And what does it mean if he was charging people to use this power?

 

And if he wasn't, what does that mean? 

 

One of the biggest eye-rollers in religious history is the fact that L. Ron Hubbard wrote pulp science fiction novels for years before having Scientology and Dianetics revealed to him, at which point he ceased being a science fiction novelist and became a revealer of great truths (many of which sound like something you would read in pulp science fiction novels.)  Some might say that the scifi writing was L. Ron's "preparatory period"; obviously he needed good writing skills to be able to have Dianetics revealed to him.  But others see something a little less...supernatural.

 

That's the biggest problem with Joseph Smith and the seer stone.  After we get past the issue of whether or not he was actually seeing treasure, we have to reframe the origin stories of the Church away from Joseph Smith being a simple, uneducated Christian farm-boy who was visited by an angel out of the blue on September 23, 1823. 

 

Sure, this is a path that has been well trod in the past few decades, but the recent publications of the seer stone pictures certainly make it an interesting journey again (this time in full color), and there may be many more people on the path this time.

[jkwilliams]

That's what I don't understand.  Do Church members (who have given the matter any thought) think Joseph was actually seeing real buried treasures in the seer stone, and if so, by what power?  And what does it mean if he was charging people to use this power?

 

And if he wasn't, what does that mean? 

 

One of the biggest eye-rollers in religious history is the fact that L. Ron Hubbard wrote pulp science fiction novels for years before having Scientology and Dianetics revealed to him, at which point he ceased being a science fiction novelist and became a revealer of great truths (many of which sound like something you would read in pulp science fiction novels.)  Some might say that the scifi writing was L. Ron's "preparatory period"; obviously he needed good writing skills to be able to have Dianetics revealed to him.  But others see something a little less...supernatural.

 

That's the biggest problem with Joseph Smith and the seer stone.  After we get past the issue of whether or not he was actually seeing treasure, we have to reframe the origin stories of the Church away from Joseph Smith being a simple, uneducated Christian farm-boy who was visited by an angel out of the blue on September 23, 1823. 

 

Sure, this is a path that has been well trod in the past few decades, but the recent publications of the seer stone pictures certainly make it an interesting journey again (this time in full color), and there may be many more people on the path this time.

 

It's interesting to me because however you look at it, it presents different issues. If there's some continuum between folk magic and revelation, how does that work, and is it legitimate to charge money for it? Beats me.

[Calm]

So, just to clarify, you believe he could/did find lost items?

 

I wrote a long post that got lost when my iPad died and have exhausted my emotional investment into answering the question so this will be less detailed.

 

Bottomline, I do not know.  Psychologically speaking for me given the behaviour of everyone involved even peripheral characters such as Anthon or rather how the main characters interacted with such, the more parsimonious answer is yes....within the whole context of early church history and my own experience with the instruction of the Spirit and how I've seen it work in others' lives (it seems a small step from being inspired on where to find something and having a vision on where to find something to me).  Not saying that all such claimed experiences are likely to be real, if there is profit involved I would not be the least surprised if the vast majority or even all of those cases are scams.  If they are done out of love or care for another or a desire to serve God (or what one understands the divine to be), I am open to the possibility of the experience.

 

I can't remember who reported it, but Joseph could not translate/transmit the text when he was angry.  If that emotion can interfere with his gift (assuming the possibility it was real), I assume that greed, pride and other less than admirable feelings that would likely pop up around the topic of treasure seeking would interfere with it as well.  Perhaps even lead to false visions just as at times I believe our pride or unrighteous desires lead us to believe we have been inspired by the Spirit to do something that benefits our natural man when it hasn't and in fact, may be trying to convince us to do something else entirely.

 

Given the lack of positive empirical data on such things I withhold judgment until I have more info.  If it was something that was not so affected by someone's personal state as I believe, I would see the lack of positive results as making the likelihood very low, but there are too many variables that cannot be control for imo to be able to scientifically experiment effectively at this time (maybe if we can in the future identify and measure levels of emotional behaviour such as greed, etc such experiments can become reliable).

 

I am not 100% certain that the Spirit even exists, it is simply the best explanation in my view for what I know has occurred in my life.  Randomness, even if one takes into account the astronomical times people must be seeking for spiritual instruction or gifts, just doesn't seem a reasonable answer in enough cases of my life that at this point, I believe.

[jkwilliams]

I wrote a long post that got lost when my iPad died and have exhausted my emotional investment into answering the question so this will be less detailed.

 

Bottomline, I do not know.  Psychologically speaking for me given the behaviour of everyone involved even peripheral characters such as Anthon or rather how the main characters interacted with such, the more parsimonious answer is yes....within the whole context of early church history and my own experience with the instruction of the Spirit and how I've seen it work in others' lives (it seems a small step from being inspired on where to find something and having a vision on where to find something to me).  Not saying that all such claimed experiences are likely to be real, if there is profit involved I would not be the least surprised if the vast majority or even all of those cases are scams.  If they are done out of love or care for another or a desire to serve God (or what one understands the divine to be), I am open to the possibility of the experience.

 

I can't remember who reported it, but Joseph could not translate/transmit the text when he was angry.  If that emotion can interfere with his gift (assuming the possibility it was real), I assume that greed, pride and other less than admirable feelings that would likely pop up around the topic of treasure seeking would interfere with it as well.  Perhaps even lead to false visions just as at times I believe our pride or unrighteous desires lead us to believe we have been inspired by the Spirit to do something that benefits our natural man when it hasn't and in fact, may be trying to convince us to do something else entirely.

 

Given the lack of positive empirical data on such things I withhold judgment until I have more info.  If it was something that was not so affected by someone's personal state as I believe, I would see the lack of positive results as making the likelihood very low, but there are too many variables that cannot be control for imo to be able to scientifically experiment effectively at this time (maybe if we can in the future identify and measure levels of emotional behaviour such as greed, etc such experiments can become reliable).

 

I am not 100% certain that the Spirit even exists, it is simply the best explanation in my view for what I know has occurred in my life.  Randomness, even if one takes into account the astronomical times people must be seeking for spiritual instruction or gifts, just doesn't seem a reasonable answer in enough cases of my life that at this point, I believe.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I don't think we're meant to have 100% certainty about anything in this life, especially not things spiritual. I can't think of anything I am 100% certain of except that I love my family. But then you really can't quantify that, and when I am dealing with something one of my kids has done, I can't always say I'm feeling the love.

[Calm]

Yes, that's what I meant: calmoriah seems to accept that he could find treasures using the stone. 

Nope, I see that as falling into the personal gain side of seership too much.  I don't think the Spirit would have supported such actions.

 

I see it as unlikely that Balaam (or other seers) got effective visions when he was doing it for cash, his reputation and why he was sought out by others would have been based on when he was acting righteously or at least not sinfully.

[jkwilliams]

Nope, I see that as falling into the personal gain side of seership too much.  I don't think the Spirit would have supported such actions.

 

I see it as unlikely that Balaam (or other seers) got effective visions when he was doing it for cash, his reputation and why he was sought out by others would have been based on when he was acting righteously or at least not sinfully.

 

Thanks for clarifying further.

[Calm]

 That one was composed so poorly it looks like I wrote it.

One finger typing on the iPad does not lend itself to being articulate.  Too hard to proof read and correct.  Hopefully now it makes more sense.

Edited August 13, 2015 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

Hey JkWilliams and ALarson,

I'm not sure the soruce of your confusion. Oh it is I who has confused? Great.

So it's hard to talk in general terms on this because it feels like what we have to really rely on is really only the account with Stowell. I realize everyone is taking the stowell account adding to it the perception that Joseph was a guy who sought people to pay him to find buried treasure, generally, by looking at his stone. but that doesn't seem to be the case, it seems to me.

In Stowell's case we have him paying Joseph for months of labor, apparently 14 dollars a month. The tasks for that money included, it seems, digging and other activities around the farm/house/estate/stables or whatever it was. We also know Stowell was convinced that Joseph had miraculous powers to see things, having heard about him, perhaps through the gold bible story. Stowell reported the Joseph could see his house and his place of residence by looking through the stone. He was convinced that Joseph would be able to see the treasure, but never, as the records indicate, suggests that Joseph did look at the stone as see the treasure, where to find it. Now, it obvious the whole venture ended, Joseph himself claiming he is the one who argued against continuing. But as it were, Joseph stuck around, because he was getting paid to do work.

I say it's quite possible that Joseph used the stone at other times to find buried treasure. But the accounts we have are often late, second hand, hostile, or otherwise. That doesn't mean some of Joseph's associates did not indicate Joseph was a money digger. Obviously he was, at least for a few months.

I would suggest, in the sum, that it's possible Joseph, as a teenager, was a fraudster trying to get people to give him money by pretending to see buried treasure. afterall, the claims about the 1826 case, have it that Joseph was doing this for three years prior. But, I'm not convinced that's the case. Claims become problematic when alluded to 50 years later. The one fairly concrete example doesn't suggest as much. It has Stowell hiring JOseph among others, while Stowell thinking Joseph could do something magical in finding treasure. It could be Stowell brought him thinking he was going to find it, while Joseph went to work and get paid. It could be Joseph worked and worked, not looking at his stone at all, but Stowell thinking if he did, they'd find it.

[stemelbow]

One finger typing on the iPad does not lend itself to being articulate.  Too hard to proof read and correct.  Hopefully now it makes more sense.

You are fine. I was teasing. I get it. And I sometimes compose terrible sentences with a full keyboard at my disposal.

[jkwilliams]

Hey JkWilliams and ALarson,

I'm not sure the soruce of your confusion. Oh it is I who has confused? Great.

So it's hard to talk in general terms on this because it feels like what we have to really rely on is really only the account with Stowell. I realize everyone is taking the stowell account adding to it the perception that Joseph was a guy who sought people to pay him to find buried treasure, generally, by looking at his stone. but that doesn't seem to be the case, it seems to me.

In Stowell's case we have him paying Joseph for months of labor, apparently 14 dollars a month. The tasks for that money included, it seems, digging and other activities around the farm/house/estate/stables or whatever it was. We also know Stowell was convinced that Joseph had miraculous powers to see things, having heard about him, perhaps through the gold bible story. Stowell reported the Joseph could see his house and his place of residence by looking through the stone. He was convinced that Joseph would be able to see the treasure, but never, as the records indicate, suggests that Joseph did look at the stone as see the treasure, where to find it. Now, it obvious the whole venture ended, Joseph himself claiming he is the one who argued against continuing. But as it were, Joseph stuck around, because he was getting paid to do work.

I say it's quite possible that Joseph used the stone at other times to find buried treasure. But the accounts we have are often late, second hand, hostile, or otherwise. That doesn't mean some of Joseph's associates did not indicate Joseph was a money digger. Obviously he was, at least for a few months.

I would suggest, in the sum, that it's possible Joseph, as a teenager, was a fraudster trying to get people to give him money by pretending to see buried treasure. afterall, the claims about the 1826 case, have it that Joseph was doing this for three years prior. But, I'm not convinced that's the case. Claims become problematic when alluded to 50 years later. The one fairly concrete example doesn't suggest as much. It has Stowell hiring JOseph among others, while Stowell thinking Joseph could do something magical in finding treasure. It could be Stowell brought him thinking he was going to find it, while Joseph went to work and get paid. It could be Joseph worked and worked, not looking at his stone at all, but Stowell thinking if he did, they'd find it.

 

As others have pointed out, you're on your own with this. Even the church acknowledges that the multiple accounts from friends, family, and enemies point to the same thing. For me, it makes sense especially when you consider that the Smiths were in dire financial straits at the time. I get it that you don't accept the accounts, but I'm not sure why.

[stemelbow]

That's what I don't understand.  Do Church members (who have given the matter any thought) think Joseph was actually seeing real buried treasures in the seer stone, and if so, by what power?  And what does it mean if he was charging people to use this power?

 

And if he wasn't, what does that mean? 

 

One of the biggest eye-rollers in religious history is the fact that L. Ron Hubbard wrote pulp science fiction novels for years before having Scientology and Dianetics revealed to him, at which point he ceased being a science fiction novelist and became a revealer of great truths (many of which sound like something you would read in pulp science fiction novels.)  Some might say that the scifi writing was L. Ron's "preparatory period"; obviously he needed good writing skills to be able to have Dianetics revealed to him.  But others see something a little less...supernatural.

 

That's the biggest problem with Joseph Smith and the seer stone.  After we get past the issue of whether or not he was actually seeing treasure, we have to reframe the origin stories of the Church away from Joseph Smith being a simple, uneducated Christian farm-boy who was visited by an angel out of the blue on September 23, 1823. 

 

Sure, this is a path that has been well trod in the past few decades, but the recent publications of the seer stone pictures certainly make it an interesting journey again (this time in full color), and there may be many more people on the path this time.

The believer wants Joseph Smith's environment to play a role in how his environment schooled him so he could do the godly work. the unbeliever wants his environment to explain how/why he accomplished what he did. Flip a coin, man, because these two options are just two sides.

[Gray]

My answer would be, no, of course not. Any more than I can find gold at the end of a rainbow. 

[HappyJackWagon]

Nope, I see that as falling into the personal gain side of seership too much.  I don't think the Spirit would have supported such actions.

 

So what does that mean? What was Joseph doing? Did he THINK he was being guided by a supernatural power or seeing things with a supernatural ability, or was he faking it?

[stemelbow]

As others have pointed out, you're on your own with this. Even the church acknowledges that the multiple accounts from friends, family, and enemies point to the same thing. For me, it makes sense especially when you consider that the Smiths were in dire financial straits at the time. I get it that you don't accept the accounts, but I'm not sure why.

Hey bub, I just started to explain why concerning the Stowell account. If it doesn't make sense, then let me know. I realize people have just bought into it hook line and sinker. It's easy to do when the momentum of the explanation took on a life of it's own after, say, about the time Quinn wrote "the Magical World View" book. I'm fine with that. I like being on my own. It's kinda awesome and freeing. I'm not under the illusion that I'm going to convince anyone otherwise. Additionally it's an extremely easy concession for the Church or any member to make when you consider these allegations were from when he was a kid and it was a bit of a "thing" for them to get involved in back then, in his area.

It is true, apparently, that Joseph found a stone that he thought helped him see things unseen by the natural eye. Sure he found it when he was 16. Great. he took it from someone. Yiptey. He used it from 1822, as Dan alleges, until sometimes as late as 1827, to try and find treasure. Not sure he made anything out of doing it, other than when Stowell paid him, though. And, as explained the stowell payment seemed as much for labor as anything.

or...

He found a stone when he was 16. many in the area thought such stones can help find treasures. he looked a few times, and didn't see anything. Stowell heard his story of finding gold plates, somehow. Heard about his stone. thought he could make money off of Joseph's ability and sought him out to try. but nothing really came of it.

The last paragraph seems to be about what Joseph's perspective was on the whole thing. the first seems to be what people want to think because it's easy to imagine.

[stemelbow]

So ALarson and Jkwilliams. is my perspective a little more clear now?