Nevo Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 I think it's possible all this treasure seeking blew up afterward. . . . Sure, there very well could be something to the stories that came out. And it's also possible there is nothing to them, as it seems, Joseph Smith himself tried to suggest. I disagree. It isn't equally "possible" that Joseph Smith never looked for buried treasure with his stone. To me, this is akin to saying: "There very well could be something to the stories that men landed on the moon in the 1970s. And it's also possible there is nothing to them." I don't know of any serious historian at this point that thinks it's possible that there is nothing to the reports that Joseph used his seer stone to look for treasure. 3
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 I disagree. It isn't equally "possible" that Joseph Smith never looked for buried treasure with his stone. To me, this is akin to saying: "There very well could be something to the stories that men landed on the moon in the 1970s. And it's also possible there is nothing to them." I don't know of any serious historian at this point that thinks it's possible that there is nothing to the reports that Joseph used his seer stone to look for treasure. Agreed. This thread is interesting because I've often wondered what people think about Joseph's treasure-seeking employment. It seems to me you could come out of this a few ways: 1. He could find buried treasure using the stone and later used it to translate the Book of Mormon.2. He couldn't find treasure using the stone but later used it to translate the Book of Mormon.3. He could find treasure using the stone but didn't use it to translate the Book of Mormon.4. He couldn't use the stone to find treasure or translate the Book of Mormon. My guess is that most believing Mormons would agree with 1 or 2. 1 seems a little problematic because a) the treasure seeking was not associated with a gift of the spirit and b) it was done for profit. 2 is problematic simply because it makes little sense to use a process that didn't work to then receive revealed scripture.
ALarson Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) Wasn't Joseph Smith, Sr. involved in treasure seeking even before Joseph Smith, Jr. was? There are some witnesses who write about this and that also state Joseph Smith Sr. was a Rodsmen (along with Oliver Cowdery's Father). So I tend to believe that Joseph grew up believing in these sorts of things and it was just natural for him to participate in treasure hunting. Edited August 13, 2015 by ALarson
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 I disagree. It isn't equally "possible" that Joseph Smith never looked for buried treasure with his stone. To me, this is akin to saying: "There very well could be something to the stories that men landed on the moon in the 1970s. And it's also possible there is nothing to them." I don't know of any serious historian at this point that thinks it's possible that there is nothing to the reports that Joseph used his seer stone to look for treasure. Sure...very possible. I didn't say equally possible. I would say reviewing the evidence, papers and claims leaves me unsatisfied. Unsatisfied doesn't even mean I think Joseph did not look for buried treasure. Convenience works quite well in this. I get the feeling most people don't see it as a hill worth fighting over. Who cares whether Joseph looked for buried treasure after all? It's interesting that so many said he did, some time later, I suppose.
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Wasn't Joseph Smith, Sr. involved in treasure seeking even before Joseph Smith, Jr. was? There are some witnesses who write about this and that also state Joseph Smith Sr. was a Rodsmen (along with Oliver Cowdery's Father). So I tend to believe that Joseph grew up believing in these sorts of things and it was just natural for him to participate in treasure hunting. That's how I see it. But the question is still interesting: do we think he could or could not see hidden treasures in the stone? I don't think he could.
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Sure...very possible. I didn't say equally possible. I would say reviewing the evidence, papers and claims leaves me unsatisfied. Unsatisfied doesn't even mean I think Joseph did not look for buried treasure. Convenience works quite well in this.I get the feeling most people don't see it as a hill worth fighting over. Who cares whether Joseph looked for buried treasure after all? It's interesting that so many said he did, some time later, I suppose. As Nevo said, no one seriously disputes that he engaged in looking for buried treasure using the stone. It's not just people saying so later, either.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Agreed. This thread is interesting because I've often wondered what people think about Joseph's treasure-seeking employment. It seems to me you could come out of this a few ways: 1. He could find buried treasure using the stone and later used it to translate the Book of Mormon. 2. He couldn't find treasure using the stone but later used it to translate the Book of Mormon. 3. He could find treasure using the stone but didn't use it to translate the Book of Mormon. 4. He couldn't use the stone to find treasure or translate the Book of Mormon. My guess is that most believing Mormons would agree with 1 or 2. 1 seems a little problematic because a) the treasure seeking was not associated with a gift of the spirit and b) it was done for profit. 2 is problematic simply because it makes little sense to use a process that didn't work to then receive revealed scripture. Sure I'm wondering if anyone dare say he could find treasure. It doesn't seem like anyone's going there, yet. 1
ALarson Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 That's how I see it. But the question is still interesting: do we think he could or could not see hidden treasures in the stone? I don't think he could. I agree. The evidence seems to support this (unless someone has found even one statement that Joseph was ever successful at finding treasure from using his seer stone).
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Sure I'm wondering if anyone dare say he could find treasure. It doesn't seem like anyone's going there, yet. I know at least 2 or 3 people who believe he could find treasure using the stone.
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 I agree. The evidence seems to support this (unless someone has found even one statement that Joseph was ever successful at finding treasure from using his seer stone). Martin Harris said he found a pin on a barn floor. Does that count? 1
ALarson Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 I know at least 2 or 3 people who believe he could find treasure using the stone. What evidence to they have to support this?
ALarson Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Martin Harris said he found a pin on a barn floor. Does that count?
Guest Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Dan Vogel has documented (and visited) up to 18 sites where Joseph Smith claimed to have seen "buried treasure", and helped others to dig for it. In his infamous 1826 trial, Joseph said: In light of the recent illuminations on the seer stone, I would ask any believing LDS the following question: Do you believe that Joseph Smith could actually look into the seer stone and see actual "coin deposits" and gold mines* located in the American Northeast? *Other than Moroni's Gold PlatesHis almost constant state of poverty would suggest otherwise.
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 What evidence to they have to support this? You'd have to ask them. Brant Gardner seems to believe that Joseph had this gift of "second sight." http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2009-fair-conference/2009-joseph-the-seer-or-why-did-he-translate-with-a-rock-in-his-hat
Calm Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Number 2 could work if he was able to see other things, such as lost items...Martin's pin for example or the lost horse reported found. Plus Josiah Stowell said he had located/found? several items in his testimony but they are not identified...but that would make it more reasonable why he hired Joseph to find treasure for him.If he could find lost items, given the treasure seeking interest, it seems likely he would either be encouraged or think for himself maybe he could find something more profitable, but like God may aid us in a charitable or tender mercy way while not giving us our requests to in the lottery, have the one you are sure would be your perfect soulmate notice your existence, get the perfect job, become famous overnight, maybe God gave Joseph a gift to help others ease their burdens, but not fulfill more selfish or even greedy desires.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 As Nevo said, no one seriously disputes that he engaged in looking for buried treasure using the stone. It's not just people saying so later, either. That's pretty much what we have--the saying so later. It does make it rather convenient, for sure. Hey, and I'm fine if the consensus is Joseph looked for treasure. I'd be fine if it were true. Just saying the arguments made for it all rely on later sources making it all pretty convenient.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 I know at least 2 or 3 people who believe he could find treasure using the stone. Who are they? And why do they believe it?
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Number 2 could work if he was able to see other things, such as lost items...Martin's pin for example or the lost horse reported found. Plus Josiah Stowell said he had located/found? several items in his testimony but they are not identified...but that would make it more reasonable why he hired Joseph to find treasure for him.If he could find lost items, given the treasure seeking interest, it seems likely he would either be encouraged or think for himself maybe he could find something more profitable, but like God may aid us in a charitable or tender mercy way while not giving us our requests to in the lottery, have the one you are sure would be your perfect soulmate notice your existence, get the perfect job, become famous overnight, maybe God gave Joseph a gift to help others ease their burdens, but not fulfill more selfish or even greedy desires. So, just to clarify, you believe he could/did find lost items?
Calm Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) Sure...very possible. I didn't say equally possible. I would say reviewing the evidence, papers and claims leaves me unsatisfied. Unsatisfied doesn't even mean I think Joseph did not look for buried treasure. Convenience works quite well in this.I get the feeling most people don't see it as a hill worth fighting over. Who cares whether Joseph looked for buried treasure after all? It's interesting that so many said he did, some time later, I suppose.Balamm sp? Is talked about as a prophet who exercised his gift of seeing for personal reward. It seems likely that if seership actually does exist, that there would be a huge temptation to use it for personal gain and that many seers failed at times in succumbing to temptation. However, when one repents of one's misuse of one's gifts, the Lord will often provide better ways to use these gifts in service of him even if it doesn't match our original plans. Edited August 13, 2015 by calmoriah
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Balamm sp? Is talked about as a prophet who exercised his gift of seeing for personal reward. It seems likely that if seership actually does exist, that there would be a huge temptation to use it for personal gain and that many seers failed at times in succumbing to temptation, but like many misuse of gifts, if repented the Lord will often provide better ways to use such in service of him even if it doesn't match our original plans. I can agree. Almost all stories of his treasure seeking were from when Joseph was a teenager, which would suggest if he ever really was into it, he gave it up at some point.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Let me revise my answer. It's not that I believe Joseph did see lost treasures, as I have no reason to think he did, but I suppose anything is possible. So if the question is could he have? I say yes. Do I believe he could have seen lost things? Sure. Do I believe he did? no. It doesn't seem like he went on thinking he could or did. odd, too, if Joseph did see lost treasures and felt like he could, why not continue it when he and the saints were pressed for cash?
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 So, just to clarify, you believe he could/did find lost items? What I think is interesting. We all find lost items. Some people get up in sacrament talking about how they prayed when they lost their keys or phone so something and it suddenly turned up. I thought we were specifying whether Joseph pre-1827 used the stone to find lost treasures in particular?
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Let me revise my answer. It's not that I believe Joseph did see lost treasures, as I have no reason to think he did, but I suppose anything is possible. So if the question is could he have? I say yes. Do I believe he could have seen lost things? Sure. Do I believe he did? no. It doesn't seem like he went on thinking he could or did.odd, too, if Joseph did see lost treasures and felt like he could, why not continue it when he and the saints were pressed for cash? Reminds me of when you see an ad for an opportunity to make "$10K a month," but it's written in soap on the rear window of a 15-year-old Toyota.
jkwilliams Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 What I think is interesting. We all find lost items. Some people get up in sacrament talking about how they prayed when they lost their keys or phone so something and it suddenly turned up. I thought we were specifying whether Joseph pre-1827 used the stone to find lost treasures in particular? Yes, that's what I meant: calmoriah seems to accept that he could find treasures using the stone.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Reminds me of when you see an ad for an opportunity to make "$10K a month," but it's written in soap on the rear window of a 15-year-old Toyota. My thought too--but I thought of the signs stapled to posts on the side of the road handwritten.
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