B.s.a. Allows Gay Leaders, Church Responds

[jkwilliams]

Upset? Maybe not.

But if someone were fired -- or forced out of her job, which is really the same thing -- for something she did that was hostile to the Church or its members in her own time and on her own dime, and that in no way impacted upon her job performance -- I would not agree with that action.

And I certainly would not hypocritically, sanctimoniously and smugly pretend that she had merely "chosen to resign."

 

As I said above, I agree with you. 

[toon]

Well, what evidence do you have that there was a credible threat of a slew of enormously expensive lawsuits forcing a private organization to integrate? It doesn't quite add up in my mind. 

 

There's isn't. 

 

In my opinion, the "threat" comes down to the fact that we live in a litigious society, that the threshold for filing a lawsuit is low, and that while the likelihood of a successful challenge under current precedent is extremely low, you just can never know.

 

It's also my understanding that a legal opinion was issued by BSA's law firm and distributed to member organizations to the effect that there isn't cause to be concerned about a successful legal challenge to a member organizations continued discrimination.  Critics of the BSA decision to change its policy seem to counter with a "you never know" sky is falling approach.

[toon]

Given you ignored the quote from the BSA Chief Executive Officer defending his decision to integrate using that exact criteria.  Plus your statement here on the "backfire" thread:

 

 

I'm gong to go with.  You aren't going believe any evidence presented to you for the 4th time if you didn't see if before.

 

My work is done here.

 

How's this evidence>

 

If the Boy Scouts of America approve gay adult leaders, as they are expected to do late Monday (July 27), does that mean troops based at churches may end up in court if they ban gay Scoutmasters?

 

Scout officials predicted that would be “unlikely” in a document they released earlier this month to BSA members and leaders.

 

“We live in a litigious society, and frivolous lawsuits are threatened and filed every day,” reads the 14-page memo from the Boys Scouts’ law firm, Hughes Hubbard & Reed. “However, any lawsuit challenging the religious requirements in a Scouting unit chartered by a religious organization would be unlikely to succeed or even make much progress.”

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/are-lawsuits-ahead-for-church-based-boy-scout-troops/2015/07/27/b60a543e-3491-11e5-b835-61ddaa99c73e_story.html

 

Unlikely to succeed or "even make much progress," which means it gets disposed of relatively quickly

[jkwilliams]

How's this evidence>

 

If the Boy Scouts of America approve gay adult leaders, as they are expected to do late Monday (July 27), does that mean troops based at churches may end up in court if they ban gay Scoutmasters?

 

Scout officials predicted that would be “unlikely” in a document they released earlier this month to BSA members and leaders.

 

“We live in a litigious society, and frivolous lawsuits are threatened and filed every day,” reads the 14-page memo from the Boys Scouts’ law firm, Hughes Hubbard & Reed. “However, any lawsuit challenging the religious requirements in a Scouting unit chartered by a religious organization would be unlikely to succeed or even make much progress.”

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/are-lawsuits-ahead-for-church-based-boy-scout-troops/2015/07/27/b60a543e-3491-11e5-b835-61ddaa99c73e_story.html

 

Unlikely to succeed or "even make much progress," which means it gets disposed of relatively quickly

 

As it should be. 

[KevinG]

Relatively quickly at a cost of ? to an individual troop. And why is National worried about lawsuits for a policy that they say isn't anything for local units to worry about.

I think Gates punted and left the chartered organizations to deal with something National would not. This would explain the church being peeved at the BSA.

[MorningStar]

Yep, they could have countless lawsuits that are thrown out, but it still cost money and time.  Sometimes I wonder if this is really about wanting to be a part of Boy Scouts or just hatred towards an organization that is religious in nature. 

[carbon dioxide]

I am not big into the scouting program so I may be wrong but does not ward based scouting programs extend callings to all the adults that are in the troop?  How many gay adults would be called to fill a position in an LDS sponsored troop?

[Scott Lloyd]

If that's what you really think, then I can certainly understand your distress.

I'm only taking seriously the uncompromising, take-no-prisoners attitude of the gay activists and their legal counsel. Clearly, they don't intend to rest until there has been a total hi-jacking of BSA. Meanwhile, they'll make plenty of trouble for the religious sponsoring organizations in BSA.

[Scott Lloyd]

Relatively quickly at a cost of ? to an individual troop. And why is National worried about lawsuits for a policy that they say isn't anything for local units to worry about.

I think Gates punted and left the chartered organizations to deal with something National would not. This would explain the church being peeved at the BSA.

If Gates and the overpaid executives at National are leaving the chartering organizations to fend for themselves, the locals should band together, withdraw from BSA, and launch their own national youth program. Perhaps the Church of Jesus Christ could lead the way. Combined with Catholics and other likeminded organizations, it might make quite a substantial presence.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yep, they could have countless lawsuits that are thrown out, but it still cost money and time.  Sometimes I wonder if this is really about wanting to be a part of Boy Scouts or just hatred towards an organization that is religious in nature.

I think it's the latter. And I think they'll keep mounting vexatious lawsuits until they get what they want. They've as much as said so.

[rockpond]

Yep, they could have countless lawsuits that are thrown out, but it still cost money and time.  Sometimes I wonder if this is really about wanting to be a part of Boy Scouts or just hatred towards an organization that is religious in nature. 

 

There are gay scouts and leaders who want(ed) to be a part of the BSA (Brian Peffley, Garrett Bryant, Ryan Andresen, Jennifer Tyrrell, etc and those are just the ones that made headlines).

 

If there is hatred toward religious organizations it may be a result of us fighting against their rights.  I doubt that won us much good will.

[rockpond]

How's this evidence>

 

If the Boy Scouts of America approve gay adult leaders, as they are expected to do late Monday (July 27), does that mean troops based at churches may end up in court if they ban gay Scoutmasters?

 

Scout officials predicted that would be “unlikely” in a document they released earlier this month to BSA members and leaders.

 

“We live in a litigious society, and frivolous lawsuits are threatened and filed every day,” reads the 14-page memo from the Boys Scouts’ law firm, Hughes Hubbard & Reed. “However, any lawsuit challenging the religious requirements in a Scouting unit chartered by a religious organization would be unlikely to succeed or even make much progress.”

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/are-lawsuits-ahead-for-church-based-boy-scout-troops/2015/07/27/b60a543e-3491-11e5-b835-61ddaa99c73e_story.html

 

Unlikely to succeed or "even make much progress," which means it gets disposed of relatively quickly

 

Another reason why I feel it is unlikely that the Church will leave the BSA over this.

[rockpond]

If Gates and the overpaid executives at National are leaving the chartering organizations to fend for themselves, the locals should band together, withdraw from BSA, and launch their own national youth program. Perhaps the Church of Jesus Christ could lead the way. Combined with Catholics and other likeminded organizations, it might make quite a substantial presence.

 

Hey Scott... You've stated that you believe the Church will end its affiliation with the BSA over this new policy change.  Care to put a timeline to that prediction and start another countdown clock?

[sunstoned]

If Gates and the overpaid executives at National are leaving the chartering organizations to fend for themselves, the locals should band together, withdraw from BSA, and launch their own national youth program. Perhaps the Church of Jesus Christ could lead the way. Combined with Catholics and other likeminded organizations, it might make quite a substantial presence

I wonder what message this type of action would send out to the gay community, the world, and to members in general?  It sounds very homophobic to me.  Bishops call scout leaders, which means the church is in total control of scouting at the ward level.  The new BSA decision supports this.  With this in mind, it seems that your concern is that mormon boys might somehow have to see or interface with a gay scout leader from another (obvious genital) toop at a scout-o-rama or some other event.  Is this really the fear?

Edited July 30, 2015 by sunstoned

[The Nehor]

If Gates and the overpaid executives at National are leaving the chartering organizations to fend for themselves, the locals should band together, withdraw from BSA, and launch their own national youth program. Perhaps the Church of Jesus Christ could lead the way. Combined with Catholics and other likeminded organizations, it might make quite a substantial presence.

 

I think combining with others to make a program would be a mistake for LDS. Joint activities and things like that would be fine but do we really want to be tied at the hip again to organizations who may shift just like the BSA did right after we sever our connection with them (assuming we do).

[why me]

I wonder what message this type of action would send out to the gay community, the world, and to members in general?

Not much. The gay community activists have a plan in place and they are attempting to make that plan a reality. Should such plans or strategies be challenged or should their plans and strategies just be blindly accepted.

 

And the world is not really that concerned with such issues as USA scouts and gays and the stance of the lds church. The world is in turmoil both politically and economically and people have much more to worry about. Perhaps it is only in america where such issues take precedent over the killing of hundreds of thousands of christians and the dislocating of millions of people in the middle east and africa.

 

In fact, this whole mormon issue thing is in fact a little insulting when one considers the world and the tremendous issues that are affecting it. And this is why the greater community really does not care about what is happening with mormonism and the scouts.

 

But such is one issue activism, something that seems to plague american life and the gay activist community is very good at it.

Edited July 30, 2015 by why me

[KevinG]

I wonder what message this type of action would send out to the gay community, the world, and to members in general?  It sounds very homophobic to me.  Bishops call scout leaders, which means the church is in total control of scouting at the ward level.  The new BSA decision supports this.  With this in mind, it seems that your concern is that mormon boys might somehow have to see or interface with a gay scout leader from another (obvious genital) toop at a scout-o-rama or some other event.  Is this really the fear?

 

Nonsense. The BSA and LDS, Baptist, Catholic Church sponsored units want to be able to retain the definition of what "morally straight (clean) means in their own scout oath, and select leaders that are examples of it.  We would rather not change an organizational ethic consistent with their doctrines, that has worked well for 100 years to accommodate a handful of people who want it changed.  The largest resentment by far is not towards those individuals but to the politically motivated acts of the lobbyists and lawyers who have forced the issue on the Scouts with the clear aim of making us change or destroying the organization.  

 

The gay activists have said in very clear terms religious chartered scout units should not exist if they don't change their leadership selection policies.

 

My homophobe, racist, cisgender, heteronormative, priveledge button has been pushed so many times for a false alarm, I've now disconnected it. 

[california boy]

Not much. The gay community activists have a plan in place and they are attempting to make that plan a reality. Should such plans or strategies be challenged or should their plans and strategies just be blindly accepted.

 

And the world is not really that concerned with such issues as USA scouts and gays and the stance of the lds church. The world is in turmoil both politically and economically and people have much more to worry about. Perhaps it is only in america where such issues take precedent over the killing of hundreds of thousands of christians and the dislocating of millions of people in the middle east and africa.

 

In fact, this whole mormon issue thing is in fact a little insulting when one considers the world and the tremendous issues that are affecting it. And this is why the greater community really does not care about what is happening with mormonism and the scouts.

 

But such is one issue activism, something that seems to plague american life and the gay activist community is very good at it.

I agree with you on this. Corporate sponsorship and support for BSA as well as the gay community have LONG since left caring about scouting. BSA along with the Mormon church have been written off as being homophobic and not welcoming to the LGBT community. One only has to read this thread to affirm that even though the policy has changed, there is no change in attitudes in the Mormon church or BSA. For the vast majority of gays they simply don't care what BSA or the church does

This whole policy change did not come from pressure from gay activists. There has been no increased pressure on BSA by activists. This is only about money. BSA thought that by including gay boys in their troops corporations would start contributing again. They were wrong. Now this half hearted attempt to sit on the fence is being tried. BSA doesn't want to tic off its religious base but they want the corporate support back. What happens next remains to be seen. There are plenty of worthy groups that do not base any of their policies on discrimination. Why would corporate sponsors go back to BSA? It still carries too much baggage

What many of you just don't seem to get is that most corporations are simply not going to support discrimination. It is not some gay juganaunt that is driving this, it is people unwilling to tolerate discrimination. This is why the Mormon church lost the cultural war against blacks. It is why the. church will continue to loose the cultural war against gays. History repeats itself whether you want to admit it or. not.

[stemelbow]

I am not big into the scouting program so I may be wrong but does not ward based scouting programs extend callings to all the adults that are in the troop?  How many gay adults would be called to fill a position in an LDS sponsored troop?

Not sure that's the concern. As far as I can tell the concern seems to be that a gay man is going to pretend for years to be LDS in order to get called into scouts. When there that gay man will prey on the kids, or something.

I can see something like this happening, as I think I already said: A man is called into scouts. this man is active LDS, married and has kids. But he's gay. now it might be that the Bishop doesn't know or might know and doesn't see it as a big deal. While in Scouts this man decides to come clean, may even cause difficulty in his marriage (many such men keep it secret from even their wives as it is) to the point of separation and divorce. The man then, perhaps, get's released by the bishop because parents complain that he's gay. This man, while loving scouts, doesn't go quietly because, after all, every other part of his life is a mess and losing scouts might be a straw he can't bear braking. Then this all kind of blows up when those evil activists get wind of it.

That scenario seems to be the type of thing that will get many around here all upset.

[stemelbow]

I agree with you on this. Corporate sponsorship and support for BSA as well as the gay community have LONG since left caring about scouting. BSA along with the Mormon church have been written off as being homophobic and not welcoming to the LGBT community. One only has to read this thread to affirm that even though the policy has changed, there is no change in attitudes in the Mormon church or BSA. For the vast majority of gays they simply don't care what BSA or the church does

This whole policy change did not come from pressure from gay activists. There has been no increased pressure on BSA by activists. This is only about money. BSA thought that by including gay boys in their troops corporations would start contributing again. They were wrong. Now this half hearted attempt to sit on the fence is being tried. BSA doesn't want to tic off its religious base but they want the corporate support back. What happens next remains to be seen. There are plenty of worthy groups that do not base any of their policies on discrimination. Why would corporate sponsors go back to BSA? It still carries too much baggage

What many of you just don't seem to get is that most corporations are simply not going to support discrimination. It is not some gay juganaunt that is driving this, it is people unwilling to tolerate discrimination. This is why the Mormon church lost the cultural war against blacks. It is why the. church will continue to loose the cultural war against gays. History repeats itself whether you want to admit it or. not.

Excellent.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think combining with others to make a program would be a mistake for LDS. Joint activities and things like that would be fine but do we really want to be tied at the hip again to organizations who may shift just like the BSA did right after we sever our connection with them (assuming we do).

We need not be joined at the hip. It could be an association model as opposed to a charter model, with member groups loosely affiliated.

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree with you on this. Corporate sponsorship and support for BSA as well as the gay community have LONG since left caring about scouting. BSA along with the Mormon church have been written off as being homophobic and not welcoming to the LGBT community. One only has to read this thread to affirm that even though the policy has changed, there is no change in attitudes in the Mormon church or BSA. For the vast majority of gays they simply don't care what BSA or the church does

This whole policy change did not come from pressure from gay activists. There has been no increased pressure on BSA by activists. This is only about money. BSA thought that by including gay boys in their troops corporations would start contributing again. They were wrong. Now this half hearted attempt to sit on the fence is being tried. BSA doesn't want to tic off its religious base but they want the corporate support back. What happens next remains to be seen. There are plenty of worthy groups that do not base any of their policies on discrimination. Why would corporate sponsors go back to BSA? It still carries too much baggage

What many of you just don't seem to get is that most corporations are simply not going to support discrimination. It is not some gay juganaunt that is driving this, it is people unwilling to tolerate discrimination. This is why the Mormon church lost the cultural war against blacks. It is why the. church will continue to loose the cultural war against gays. History repeats itself whether you want to admit it or. not.

The "culture war against blacks" is yet another anti-Mormon fiction.

And the only cultural warfare against gays is the effort to defend against assaults on traditional moral values and religious freedoms.

[california boy]

The "culture war against blacks" is yet another anti-Mormon fiction.

And the only cultural warfare against gays is the effort to defend against assaults on traditional moral values and religious freedoms.

It is just how the gays that I talk to feel about this issue. I have read them several posts from this thread including some of yours. Their reaction is .... Nothing has changed in the cultural of the Mormon church or BSA towards gays.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Relatively quickly at a cost of ? to an individual troop. And why is National worried about lawsuits for a policy that they say isn't anything for local units to worry about.

I think Gates punted and left the chartered organizations to deal with something National would not. This would explain the church being peeved at the BSA.

National is exposed to law suits because individual chartering organizations who wish to be non-discriminatory towards gay leaders were forbidden from doing so. Additionally new employment laws in places like Utah (which the church helped draft) make non religious discrimination against gay employees illegal. Not a problem for a volunteer organization, but what about scout camps and scout offices?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

If Gates and the overpaid executives at National are leaving the chartering organizations to fend for themselves, the locals should band together, withdraw from BSA, and launch their own national youth program. Perhaps the Church of Jesus Christ could lead the way. Combined with Catholics and other likeminded organizations, it might make quite a substantial presence.

You realize this already happened in the Trail Life USA movement. Unfortunately / fortunately (depending on how you look at it), they decided to exclude non-christians like us.