Kate Kelly Now Encouraging Others To Leave The Lds Church

[Calm]

  But I've not heard that Mormons do not *follow* Christ -- in the sense of keeping the commandments.  Only that Mormons believe in a "different Jesus".

I had an Orthodox priest come into our church bookstore by mistake, he was shocked to see the pictures of Christ on the wall.  He knew who we were so he must have gotten the idea we did not worship Christ from someone.

[Calm]

But I've not heard that Mormons do not *follow* Christ

 

 

Also I am surprised you haven't come across someone like this before:

 

 

Mormons have a different Jesus 

The term "Christian" means follower of Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus was God with skin on, come to die in our place for our sins, and make us acceptable in God's sight. Jesus was the "messiah" The promised and expected deliverer. He would have to fulfill every prophecy made about the Messiah, and Christians believe that He did.....

The Mormons do not "follow" Christ the Messiah, they "follow" Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the ever changing prophecy of their appointed prophets.

Weather you believe in Jesus or not, the difference is obvious as to why Christians (followers of Christ the Messiah) don't consider Mormons "Christians".

 

 

http://askville.amazon.com/evangelicals-mormons-christian/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=7552017

 

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120405010115AAU0vXr

 

was best answer (though 2 likes and 7 dislikes makes me wonder if they only count likes, we will see since I gave another answer a "like"...hmm, apparently the asker rates it):

 

Mormons follow Joseph Smith and his teaching. They do not follow Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith changed the Bible to meet his own desires. He was a charlatan.

 

Edited July 19, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

Also I am surprised you haven't come across someone like this before:

 

 

http://askville.amazon.com/evangelicals-mormons-christian/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=7552017

 

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120405010115AAU0vXr

 

was best answer (though 2 likes and 7 dislikes makes me wonder if they only count likes, we will see since I gave another answer a "like"...hmm, apparently the asker rates it):

I was surprised that there would be a CFR on this when examples are abundant and pervasive.

 

But the above should be sufficient to answer the CFR without further input from me.

 

My thanks to calmoriah.

 

And thus ends this thread derailment.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

Let's get past smac97gate.  He has explained his interest in current news stories and threats to the Church (of which he considers Kate Kelly to be one).  I accept his answer.  Furthermore, in hindsight, I realize that it was not my place to question his motives in the first place.  His personal motivations for starting however many threads about Ms. Kelly are just that -- personal.  I would apologize for overstepping my bounds, but we've recently been instructed that apologies are not Biblical, so I'll just leave it as "there may have been times when mormonnewb has made mistakes or has not acted in keeping with proper standards of decorum."

 

The problem is when kate becomes a local news story in the heart of mormonism. A news story that she planted by making her statement. Then, it becomes perfectly okay to have a thread about her and about what she said in that news piece. And certainly kate said a lot, even encouraging members to attend a mass resignations. Of course, since this is  mormon board, I do think that it is only logical that there is a thread about it. But I do understand why you may be against it or even question it. But it is good to apologize for being called out and overstepping the bounds.

 

Now, addressing the actual ideas expressed in the OP.  What advice should Kate Kelly give to a woman who is considering leaving the Church?  Should the answer always be to stay?

 

I certainly wouldn't advise her to attend a mass resignation rally, unless of course I wish to harm the church. I would give the standard advice of carefully reflecting about such a decision and weigh the blessings that she had has a member. And the spiritual guidance that she has had as a member. And to think about the spiritual experiences that she has had as a human being within the lds church.

Edited July 19, 2015 by why me

[why me]

Interesting thought experiment. Now, do the same thing with blacks instead of women.

 

Here we go with the blacks and the priesthood take. I was wondering when you were going to change the thread and make it a black issue. I think that it has been pointed out to you the difference between the issues on past threads. But you couldn't resist. It can be a little concerning that you tend to make it about race again. But lets keep this thread about kate and her news statement. Lets try not to change the topic again. It can get a little tiresome.

Edited July 19, 2015 by why me

[sethpayne]

I had an Orthodox priest come into our church bookstore by mistake, he was shocked to see the pictures of Christ on the wall.  He knew who we were so he must have gotten the idea we did not worship Christ from someone.

 

Interesting.  I wonder how many people believe that out of ignorance compared to those -- who know better and are just playing word games -- insist on Mormons not being Christian.

[sethpayne]

Also I am surprised you haven't come across someone like this before:

 

 

http://askville.amazon.com/evangelicals-mormons-christian/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=7552017

 

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120405010115AAU0vXr

 

was best answer (though 2 likes and 7 dislikes makes me wonder if they only count likes, we will see since I gave another answer a "like"...hmm, apparently the asker rates it):

 

Thanks cal.  I honestly haven't come across this type of critic who is so brazenly dishonest.  Or perhaps not since my mission days.  

Edited July 19, 2015 by sethpayne

[sethpayne]

 

 

But the above should be sufficient to answer the CFR without further input from me.

 

 

I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this, Scott.  Also, board rules require you to provide the reference.  Cal's efforts notwithstanding.  

Edited July 19, 2015 by sethpayne

[BlueDreams]

I don't think that would make you an apostate. And it would seem like counseling someone to feel free to walk away from the Church if they are unable to find peace with their role in it falls in the same category. Now, sure she isn't couching her advice in the same language of guilt and shame that a good Mormon would employ, but hey, not everyone is perfect.

 

No, she attributes denigrative descriptors for those who aren't in her camp or oppose it...it's not exactly guilt and shame; more like accuse and shame, but pretend you didn't do either because you're progressive and are looking out for humanity and all that jazz. (speaking a a relatively progressive, looking out for humanity, sorta person) 

 

I can get a little as to why you defend Kate. I wonder if she's like this person I know who many people dislike (for legitimate reasons), but because of personal experience, I have a soft spot for (also for legitimate reasons). It's about the perspective we have to work with the person. If I met Kate, I hope that I would like her....it takes a lot for me not to like someone. But I get the feeling that the only way that would happen is if she never talked about religion and we could talk about, I don't know, african fabrics and art or something.

 

But personally, from her public persona (which is all I'll probably get), I don't like her. I was pretty neutral at one point about her. I was fairly open to OW as an interesting gathering of opinions and defended it a little (back in the day). Kate helped certain topics to be talked about more widespread....topics that I personally enjoy. But my perspective of her soured over time. Not from this board. Not from Smac or any other person. But due to herself in the outlets I'd read from her as well as some of her actions.

 

So I'm usually the sort that if I don't have anything nice to say, I don't say much at all....but honestly Newb, I think it's fairly straight forward why some people have pretty negative opinions of her....and it's not an unconscious gender issue. Simply she can be rather insulting and divisive (whether she means to or not) to those especially who have opinions that don't gel with hers.... her opinions have helped people call it quits on the church (again, whether she means to or not) or at times cemented a view of women (and men) in the church for those outside of mormonism that is demonized, generalized, and simply isn't true.     

 

That's all I have to say for now. Beyond morbid curiosity about the evolution of a public persona, apostasy, and generalized curiosity about human thought I don't have much say about her. I think her opinion is just about as divisive and insulting as usual....but isn't that far from the common montage of "if you're not happy than leave" that's given for just about every problem ranging from marriage to jobs to church....you know, but with more gender repressed borg-like undertones.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited July 19, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Scott Lloyd]

I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this, Scott.  Also, board rules require you to provide the reference.  Cal's efforts notwithstanding.

I incorporate cal's response as my own by reference. As I understand them nothing in the board rules forbid me to do this. And prolonging this derails the thread.

[Tacenda]

I think if Kate is going to speak up for such a significant change like women being able to practice the PH she might as well have the integrity of having a testimony of the organization as in, it is Christ's true church or the restored church. She did a 180 and I don't know how it can change like that.

If she was willing to take so many people and get them onboard with what OW represents, she ought to have enough of a testimony to match the LDS leaders themselves. I know this is out of character for me somewhat but it just doesn't sit well. If she truly believes it's God's church, you'd think she would go through the process to become re-baptised.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

As much fun as it is, with our finite, myopic, mortal perspectives, to pontificate on the welfare of the eternal souls of our fellow mortals , I'm inclined to agree, to that extent, with those on the thread who have defended Ms. Kelly: such a venture is of limited utility precisely because of that myopia.  As the scripture says, "The keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel, and He employeth no servant there."  I'm sometimes tempted to ask, "What part of He employeth no servant there do you not understand?" "No servant" means "no servant": Not you, not me, not anybody other than Christ.  My eternal standing is between God and me, and no one else.  Your eternal standing is between God and you, and no one else.  Kate Kelly's eternal standing is between God and her, and no one else.  

 

While I believe our choices, our thoughts, our words, and our deeds will have a great influence on our standing before God when we are judged of Him, I don't presume to know what might keep someone out of God's presence in the life to come because only He can see into that person's heart.  I imagine a hearing in which Christ might ask us, "Does anyone have any evidence to present that might bear on this person's eternal reward?"  And we all might clamor to step forward and to say things like, "Oooh, boy!  You should read some of the things he wrote on MD&DB!" ... That's a scary thought!  (As if the Lord of the Universe somehow isn't omniscient! )  And maybe Christ will stroke His chin thoughtfully and say, "Yes, he did do all of those things," e.g., "He did write some things on MD&DB that might cause someone to question his faithfulness."  But then He might add, "I wonder, do you know anything about the burdens he was carrying?  I do, because I helped him carry them.  Let me tell you about some of them ..."

 

Now, having said all of this, does that mean that I think Kate Kelly's words and actions are off-limits from critique and criticism?  No, because one doesn't speak to as many media outlets as she has, or blog as much as she has (assuming she has; honestly, I don't know how active of a blogger she is), or write as much as she has, or appear on as many podcasts as she has, without hoping to influence anyone else (unless she's incredibly naive or not as intelligent as she clearly seems).  All of Kate Kelly's public commentary and its potential effect on third parties, especially on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members, are fair game for commentary, critique, and criticism.  More than a few people on the Board have family members and friends whose steadiness in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been negatively impacted by Kate Kelly and others like her.

 

To the extent that the words and actions of the Kate Kellys of the world have had a negative impact on the Church of Jesus Christ and on its members, I don't think that anyone need stand meek and all but mute in the face of that negative impact without mounting a defense.  But as for, e.g., the John Williamses and the Teancums and the HappyJackWagons and the MormonNewbs (and even the Kate Kellys) of the world, I'll leave the question of the fate of their eternal souls where it belongs. He's got that covered; He doesn't need my help.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

I incorporate cal's response as my own by reference. As I understand them nothing in the board rules forbid me to do this. And prolonging this derails the thread.

I'm a citation?  

[williamsmith]

I didn't know I was "devalued" for not being able to have children in my body....?

 

So, not sure how women are "devalued" by the Church simply because they don't hold the "official" Priesthood, even though they do about everything else, as leaders even, and they get the Eternal Priesthood in the Temple.

 

These views of liberals that women are somehow "less" than others simply because others do something they don't or can't, always facinates me.

To me, it's her that's "devaluing" something or others.

[Calm]

I think if Kate is going to speak up for such a significant change like women being able to practice the PH she might as well have the integrity of having a testimony of the organization as in, it is Christ's true church or the restored church. She did a 180 and I don't know how it can change like that.

If she was willing to take so many people and get them onboard with what OW represents, she ought to have enough of a testimony to match the LDS leaders themselves. I know this is out of character for me somewhat but it just doesn't sit well. If she truly believes it's God's church, you'd think she would go through the process to become re-baptised.

There are plenty of exmormons, never mormons and unbelievers on OW; did you get the idea it was a group of those with testimonies it was God's church somehow?

[mormonnewb]

Never mind.

Edited July 19, 2015 by mormonnewb

[Damien the Leper]

I incorporate cal's response as my own by reference. As I understand them nothing in the board rules forbid me to do this. And prolonging this derails the thread.

IOW, I got nuthin'.

[Damien the Leper]

You're free to make any definitions you want, but I won't be bound by them.

 

That said, I take no position on what other people call their own churches.

Therefore, you are unable to say The Church of Jesus Christ is not the Church of Jesus Christ. Very simple. Just like the LDS church is not The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Claim trivial authority all you want but it is highly meaningless.

[mormonnewb]

Never mind.

Edited July 19, 2015 by mormonnewb

[mikegriffith1]

Sooner or later, apostates always show their true colors.

 

I predict that as the gay rights movement moves to its next goal of forcing churches to hire gays in church-run businesses and to ordain gays to the priesthood, you will see more liberal Mormons attack and leave the Church.

Edited July 19, 2015 by mikegriffith1

[Analytics]

Now, addressing the actual ideas expressed in the OP. What advice should Kate Kelly give to a woman who is considering leaving the Church? Should the answer always be to stay?

Regardless of how unhappy the church makes you, and regardless of how confident you are that it's a man-made institution that just isn't worthy of the dedication it demands of you, there is still one and only one answer to your question: pay, pray, obey, and stay. And shut up about your viewpoint unless it conforms to the script.

[Scott Lloyd]

IOW, I got nuthin'.

To illustrate the spreading of the common falsehood that Mormonism is not a Christian faith? That's absurd. I could pile example upon example all day if I wanted to derail the thread -- which I don't. The CFR has been answered. That is sufficient to the moment.

 

But if you really desire further examples, I should think you could Google the search string "Are Mormons Christian?" and find instances aplenty.

 

On principle, I won't drive traffic to anti-Mormon websites by linking to them, but I can suggest a couple of books:

 

Offenders for a Word: How Anti-Mormons Play Word Games to Attack the Latter-day Saints by Peterson and Ricks

 

and

 

Are Mormons Christians? by Stephen E. Robinson

Edited July 19, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Therefore, you are unable to say The Church of Jesus Christ is not the Church of Jesus Christ. Very simple. Just like the LDS church is not The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Claim trivial authority all you want but it is highly meaningless.

I've read this several times now and still can't make sense of it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Regardless of how unhappy the church makes you, and regardless of how confident you are that it's a man-made institution that just isn't worthy of the dedication it demands of you, there is still one and only one answer to your question: pay, pray, obey, and stay. And shut up about your viewpoint unless it conforms to the script.

What a clever rhyme. Did you just come up with it?

[Analytics]

What a clever rhyme. Did you just come up with it?

Thanks, lol. About 20 years ago now, Steve Benson made "pray, pay, and obey" famous. thjs thread inspired my adaptation.