Are The Essays Backfiring?

[Jeanne]

I said "I don't know".  People, including good friends and relatives still don't know a lot about them and I figure some will learn from their seminary kids for the first time about a lot of things.  It will put some on  fence and to wanting more answers in classrooms than they might be getting.  So...it depends on the the wards/bishops etc as to how things are handled.  for those that are more aware  of the recent past, they will want to know why BYU professors were disfellowshipped or exed for stating those things that are in the essays....I hope it does good..and I am even a non-member.  I simply want my family to know more than they did before.  I could send copies of those essays to my father...but if they come from me , it is a lie.  The younger families will have a tough time...the younger generation will have a choice.  Some for the first time in mormon history.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Jeanne

[why me]

About half the people who email me the cause of their faith crisis in the last year attribute the essays as part of the reason

This is no surprise. Many people do lack critical thinking skills. The ability to reflect critically through a questioning process is not something that many people possess. Most are surfing on the surface. People need to learn how to think and connect the dots and develop their logical interpretations and not depend on other people's facts. And they need to see the forest for the trees. The book of mormon exists. How did it come to pass and who wrote it is the foundational question of the church.

 

Unfortunately, quite a few members are forgetting this foundational question. Whether the church wished to pubicize its history during the last 40 years should not destroy faith if faith were strong.

Edited June 14, 2015 by why me

[why me]

  So...it depends on the the wards/bishops etc as to how things are handled.  for those that are more aware  of the recent past, they will want to know why BYU professors were disfellowshipped or exed for stating those things that are in the essays...

 

I don't think that they were exed for that. No one was exed for claiming that joseph was a polygamist. Or that there were more than one interpretation of the first vision. All this was in the ensign at one time or another. I  think that the excommunication process was more focused on what they wanted to do with that knowledge or against certain social policies that the church supported.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_freedom_at_Brigham_Young_University

Edited June 14, 2015 by why me

[CV75]

The essays do reflect that "something was amiss".  That's the problem.

But you originally said, “the basic problem is that these essays paint of picture of prophets who have said/done things inconsistent with the restored gospel as we currently identify it.” You were trying to convey that the problem is change, and since it is a problem, the Church was led astray, right?

 

I learned and believed early on in my conversion that the prophet will not ever lead us astray. Yet the essays have not created any degree of cognitive dissonance for me.  While there is correct light (“accurate information from many different sources and publications”) behind them, they are also subject to reflecting back the lesser light with which they are viewed, or only that which passes the filters with which they are viewed.

 

Now you are instead saying that the problem is that the essays “reflect” that something was amiss (your observation has changed!). Since what they reflect depends on the light (preconceptions, perspectives, etc.) with which they are viewed, that remains the underlying “problem.”

[The Nehor]

About half the people who email me the cause of their faith crisis in the last year attribute the essays as part of the reason

 

I am pretty sure that that is the mother of all sampling biases.

[halconero]

Backfiring or not, BYU professor J.B. Haws mentioned at the recent Mormon History Association conference that the essays will be required reading for all institute students starting this fall.

 

Already happening. My institute class right now covered the multiple versions of the First Vision one week, polygamy the next, and blacks and the priesthood after that (taught by a black man).

 

The same in my old institute in Toronto.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This is no surprise. Many people do lack critical thinking skills. The ability to reflect critically through a questioning process is not something that many people possess. Most are surfing on the surface. People need to learn how to think and connect the dots and develop their logical interpretations and not depend on other people's facts. And they need to see the forest for the trees. The book of mormon exists. How did it come to pass and who wrote it is the foundational question of the church.

 

Unfortunately, quite a few members are forgetting this foundational question. Whether the church wished to pubicize its history during the last 40 years should not destroy faith if faith were strong.

That is one of the issues, many are starting to realize that the Book of Mormon being true does not make a church organization that uses it perpetually true and without significant error. You will find that this latest round of purging involves many who adamantly believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that Joseph Smith Jr, was a prophet of God.

[why me]

You will find that this latest round of purging involves many who adamantly believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that Joseph Smith Jr, was a prophet of God.

 

I wouldnt call it a purge. I think that the people who were exed most likely deserved it. Unfortantely, we do not have the SPs reasoning for the excommunications because they need to be silent. I think that those who have been exed were so because of apostacy etc.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I wouldnt call it a purge. I think that the people who were exed most likely deserved it. Unfortantely, we do not have the SPs reasoning for the excommunications because they need to be silent. I think that those who have been exed were so because of apostacy etc.

I am not going to get into that with you. I just wanted to point out that knowing the Book of Mormon to be the word of God does not equal believing that a church organization to solely true or that it hasn't entered into doctrinal error.

[Rain]

Backfiring or not, BYU professor J.B. Haws mentioned at the recent Mormon History Association conference that the essays will be required reading for all institute students starting this fall.

 

What does this mean? That they will only have one class taught for everyone?  Or that the things will be taught in the place of what was originally taught - for example with a celestial marriage class - the first few weeks won't be on Celestial marriage?  Or that the essays class will be required for graduation?

[Coreyb]

About half the people who email me the cause of their faith crisis in the last year attribute the essays as part of the reason

Interesting. Out of curiosity, about how many such emails have you received in the past year?

[mormonnewb]

I am pretty sure that that is the mother of all sampling biases.

To assess whether they are backfiring, I think we have to determine the audience to which they are addressed. My guess is that they were NOT written for those who have unshakable belief that the Church is the true Poppins. Nor were they written for, say, the Tanners. No critic of the Church is going to be persuaded by an essay, regardless of how many footnotes it contains. In that vein, DBMormon's sampling group might be just the group that the Church was trying to reach with these essays.

So DBMormon, what percentage of those affected by these essays would you guess eventually find some equilibrium that allows them to remain in the Church?

[mormonnewb]

I think that it is interesting that the lds church should be in the history business. I know of no other church that is in the history business. If I go to the vatican website, I will not be able to read catholic history. Nor to any protestant churches website either. History is left up to scholars and academics. However, exmormons have somehow convinced mormons that the mormon church should be in the history business. I attended catechism as a boy. I learned nothing of history. And this is still the case. I have not seen the vatican come out with a 1000 page history book. But I have seen countless scholars write about catholic and protestant history. So, what was amiss was neutral scholarship about lds history.

I have found this about black in the priesthood from a neutral scholar:

https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sightings/wrong-side-white-w-paul-reeve

I think that this is a wonderful explanation about it. And it gives a wonderful historical context. This is what has been amiss. Scholars who are neutral writing lds history.

No other church also espouses the Mary Poppins view of church leadership. Even the Catholics pope infallibility is limited to doctrinal pronouncements regarding faith and morals. That is far less of a promise than our "the prophet will never lead the church astray."

That's why when Catholics read in school that their church has suffered from corruption and engaged in vicious persecutions, it doesn't result in mass faith crises. They were never taught that their church leaders were practically perfect in every way.

In short, our members are more brittle because we've "baked" them that way and all of the "neutral" scholarship in the world won't make them any more flexible so long as they are taught that our leaders are, for all practical purposes, infallible.

[Thinking]

However, exmormons have somehow convinced mormons that the mormon church should be in the history business.

 

The LDS Church has been in the history business since it was organized on April 6, 1830. I'm glad to know that it was the exmormons (who couldn't have existed yet) that convinced Joseph Smith to begin keeping a history of the Church.

[Teancum]

Backfiring? Hardly.

Problem is people are using them as gospel truth instead of turning to the scriptures.

So teancum do you consider yourself among the wheat or the tares?

 

 

Oh  well Mr avatar my post was a bit tongue in cheeky and mirrored a bit in opposite the post I responded to.

 

To answer your question..... I do not believe in the wheat and tare concept. I do not believe there is one truth system at least today, though I am searching for one if it exists. 

 

The wheat and tare idea assume whoever assume they are the wheat has the truth and that there is some sort of sifting.  I used to buy that idea whole heartedly.  I do not any more though I am open to it if my truth seeking leads me back to that.  

 

Though I think it an awful way to view the world. 

[Teancum]

Deleted post

Edited June 14, 2015 by Teancum

[Kenngo1969]

You k ow, I find it interesting ...

"Pat, is there an 'n'?"

 

Sorry.  Couldn't resist!

[Kenngo1969]

... Sure the faithful keep their covenants.  Bully for you and them.   Do you want a prize?  Is it a good thing to believe something when the evidence may indicate that what the so called faithful believe may not be worth investing in to the extent the church demands?   ...

 

I don't think God is like Santa Claus, giving me "presents" when I'm "good" and giving me "lumps of coal" when I'm "bad": "He maketh His sun to shine on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."  To the extent that I keep my covenants, I hope it will make me into the kind of person God wants me to be, but I don't do it because I "want" anything from Him: I do it because I believe He loves me and knows and wants what is best for me, and I do it because it fills my soul.  (And even though I don't do it because I "want" anything from Him, I find that when I do it, He blesses me with abundant good fruit anyway.)  And "the church" doesn't "demand" anything of me.  It lacks that power.  What I give to the church, I give because I believe that's what God wants of me.

 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/power-of-covenant-keeping/

 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/of-doubt-faith-questions-and-choices/

[The Nehor]

To assess whether they are backfiring, I think we have to determine the audience to which they are addressed. My guess is that they were NOT written for those who have unshakable belief that the Church is the true Poppins. Nor were they written for, say, the Tanners. No critic of the Church is going to be persuaded by an essay, regardless of how many footnotes it contains. In that vein, DBMormon's sampling group might be just the group that the Church was trying to reach with these essays.

 

So the church was trying to reach people who look for answers on obscure blogs? That seems like an oddly specific audience.

[CV75]

To assess whether they are backfiring, I think we have to determine the audience to which they are addressed.

"The purpose of these essays has been to gather accurate information from many different sources and publications and place it in the Gospel Topics section of LDS.org, where the material can more easily be accessed and studied by Church members and other interested parties." https://www.lds.org/topics?lang=eng

[Sanpitch]

I'm having computer problems today, this was supposed to be directed to Why Me from an earlier post, stating that most people have a lack of critical thinking skills.

 

 

It's always intriguing to find someone who has critical thinking skills and has determined all the correct answers.  But how does someone who thinks they have critical thinking skills and they come up with different answers to the questions know they are on the wrong track .  Is there a process for determining whether they are correct or not.  How do you prove you're always correct and someone else has a false determination.  Many people know they have all the right answers, that is the problem, which ones are right and which ones are wrong?

Edited June 15, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't think they are backfiring.  

 

The issues they bring up for some are just growing pains as people learn to process the (new to them) information.  Once the inoculation period is over and the herd immunity kicks in, the essays won't be seen as any more problematic than any other historical happening that seems strange when it's new but then just becomes a normal part of the faith tradition.

"herd immunity"?  Interesting phrase.  Just how does that work sociologically, bluebell?

 

Nothing kills intrigue and suspicion like familiarity.

The way I heard it was "familiarity breeds contempt."

Edited June 15, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[bluebell]

The way I heard it was "familiarity breeds contempt."

 

With people, but not really with concepts though.

[Teancum]

I don't think God is like Santa Claus, giving me "presents" when I'm "good" and giving me "lumps of coal" when I'm "bad": "He maketh His sun to shine on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."  To the extent that I keep my covenants, I hope it will make me into the kind of person God wants me to be, but I don't do it because I "want" anything from Him: I do it because I believe He loves me and knows and wants what is best for me, and I do it because it fills my soul.  (And even though I don't do it because I "want" anything from Him, I find that when I do it, He blesses me with abundant good fruit anyway.)  And "the church" doesn't "demand" anything of me.  It lacks that power.  What I give to the church, I give because I believe that's what God wants of me.

 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/power-of-covenant-keeping/

 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/of-doubt-faith-questions-and-choices/

Hi Kenngo

Do me a favor and delete my comments. I posted them then about ten minutes later thought better of it and deleted my post. You caught some of it, But it is a post I would have rather not posted thus I deleted it.

Thanks ahead of time.

[Teancum]

Thank you for so faithfully toeing the apostate party line.You are, of course, wrong. The faithful don't stay "in the terms they choose." They keep their covenants, which are the Lord's terms.Just so you know.

Ah the vindictive apostate slur again. Does it make you feel good to hurl that at those who you despise? But hey I will own it. By your hard line world view and how you see things I understand, I used to be a lot like you. I am glad I no longer am.

Am I wrong? Perhaps. I often am. Are you?

But your baseless accusation that I am is just that. Baseless. Some substance to your claim would be nice but I don't expect it. Substance is not your style.

As noted in another post, my comments to Mikegriffith's post were a tongue in cheek response to his post.

Just so you know,

Edited June 15, 2015 by Teancum