Progressing Or Regressing

[JLHPROF]

We have an increase in those members of the Church who would identify as "progressive" or some similar.

 

Progressives believe we are moving forward.  In some cases they claim that ordaining women, accepting SSM, less literal interpretation of scripture, all these things are moving us forward, progressing our understanding.

 

More traditionalists, ranging from the fundamentalist sects through to the more conservative groups within the Church are resistant to change, especially without clear revelation from God approving any change.

 

It's very similar to the way politics are viewed, and is definitely a spectrum.

 

My question/discussion topic is this:

When I read scripture and prophecy to me it seems there are three possibilities for the course we are on towards the return of our Savior.

1. The gospel was restored and we will wonder off course in our changes until a setting in order for the Savior's return.

2. The gospel continues to be restored and we will progress in our righteousness and understanding until the Savior returns.

3. The Church will progress in righteousness and truth while the world becomes more wicked - a widening separation.

 

I see evidences for all three.  Where you you feel we are heading?  Are we progressing?  Moving in the wrong direction?  Or are the wicked and the righteous becoming more separate (wheat & tares)?  Are the so-called "progressive" trends progression, regression, or separation?

Edited May 9, 2015 by JLHPROF

[HappyJackWagon]

I don't see much evidence for assuming we have a perfect understanding or practice of God's will. Unless we have had perfection at some point there must be a continual progression or restoration like Pres. Uchtdorf talked about.

That leaves us with 2 real options. We're progressing- getting better at trying to understand God's will and direction or we're regressing- getting worse than what was already imperfect. Both could be true simultaneously.

Ultimately I can only judge whether I am personally progressing or regressing. I think that is the more important question, not whether or not an imperfect institution is. The institution is simply the vehicle in which the individual can travel the path to God. If it's leading us to be more caring, charitable, compassionate, serving people then it's good. But regardless, the ultimate test is of the individual, not the institution.

[The Nehor]

I consider myself an LDS progressive though I do not define the term as others might.

 

I think we are progressing. The generation before mine in the Church was, speaking generally and not specifically, weaker then mine. I look at the generation following and the missionaries out now and I would say that, speaking generally and not specifically, they are stronger then my generation. I do not think there is much need for reformation or progress on the macro level of the Church. Instead as members purify their lives and wax strong in the Spirit that progress will be made. Some will, of course, fall away and that is tragic but not unexpected.

[ALarson]

Ultimately I can only judge whether I am personally progressing or regressing. I think that is the more important question, not whether or not an imperfect institution is. The institution is simply the vehicle in which the individual can travel the path to God. If it's leading us to be more caring, charitable, compassionate, serving people then it's good. But regardless, the ultimate test is of the individual, not the institution.

This expresses where I'm at too.  I feel I am progressing more towards living a Christlike life.  At least that is my goal and I try hard not to judge or condemn others.

 

But JLHPROF, I know your opinion of my type of progression (as you just expressed over on the other thread):

JLHPROF, on 09 May 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

 

...*ripening in wickedness*....cough

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2015 by ALarson

[Duncan]

I consider myself an LDS progressive though I do not define the term as others might.

 

I think we are progressing. The generation before mine in the Church was, speaking generally and not specifically, weaker then mine. I look at the generation following and the missionaries out now and I would say that, speaking generally and not specifically, they are stronger then my generation. I do not think there is much need for reformation or progress on the macro level of the Church. Instead as members purify their lives and wax strong in the Spirit that progress will be made. Some will, of course, fall away and that is tragic but not unexpected.

 

 

those are my thoughts as well. I just want the truth, for reasons I won't go into here I don't want to believe anything that isn't true and I want the truth of the matter. 

[Avatar4321]

Progressing to where?

[rodheadlee]

I see evidence of all three. I don't believe the Prophet and Apostles are going off the rails but many members are wallowing in darkness. I also see spiritual giants in my own ward. The Lord's House will of course be cleansed before His return. It can only be so.

[Brian 2.0]

We have an increase in those members of the Church who would identify as "progressive" or some similar.

Progressives believe we are moving forward. In some cases they claim that ordaining women, accepting SSM, less literal interpretation of scripture, all these things are moving us forward, progressing our understanding.

More traditionalists, ranging from the fundamentalist sects through to the more conservative groups within the Church are resistant to change, especially without clear revelation from God approving any change.

It's very similar to the way politics are viewed, and is definitely a spectrum.

My question/discussion topic is this:

When I read scripture and prophecy to me it seems there are three possibilities for the course we are on towards the return of our Savior.

1. The gospel was restored and we will wonder off course in our changes until a setting in order for the Savior's return.

2. The gospel continues to be restored and we will progress in our righteousness and understanding until the Savior returns.

3. The Church will progress in righteousness and truth while the world becomes more wicked - a widening separation.

I see evidences for all three. Where you you feel we are heading? Are we progressing? Moving in the wrong direction? Or are the wicked and the righteous becoming more separate (wheat & tares)? Are the so-called "progressive" trends progression, regression, or separation?

For the sake of discussion are you talking about the church and its doctrines and policies separate from the membership?

You could get to a point where you have a really "true" church with pure doctrines that is really small with low activity and devotion from its members... Would one consider that "progressing"?

[JLHPROF]

For the sake of discussion are you talking about the church and its doctrines and policies separate from the membership?

You could get to a point where you have a really "true" church with pure doctrines that is really small with low activity and devotion from its members... Would one consider that "progressing"?

 

The general membership...

[mfbukowski]

We have an increase in those members of the Church who would identify as "progressive" or some similar.

Progressives believe we are moving forward. In some cases they claim that ordaining women, accepting SSM, less literal interpretation of scripture, all these things are moving us forward, progressing our understanding.

More traditionalists, ranging from the fundamentalist sects through to the more conservative groups within the Church are resistant to change, especially without clear revelation from God approving any change.

It's very similar to the way politics are viewed, and is definitely a spectrum.

My question/discussion topic is this:

When I read scripture and prophecy to me it seems there are three possibilities for the course we are on towards the return of our Savior.

1. The gospel was restored and we will wonder off course in our changes until a setting in order for the Savior's return.

2. The gospel continues to be restored and we will progress in our righteousness and understanding until the Savior returns.

3. The Church will progress in righteousness and truth while the world becomes more wicked - a widening separation.

I see evidences for all three. Where you you feel we are heading? Are we progressing? Moving in the wrong direction? Or are the wicked and the righteous becoming more separate (wheat & tares)? Are the so-called "progressive" trends progression, regression, or separation?

2.

But it's not game over yet. We might actually fulfill our assignment of being the stone cut without hands, but we will have to learn a lot to pull it off.

You realize of course that if 3 happens we will have failed, right?

Edited May 11, 2015 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

2.

But it's not game over yet. We might actually fulfill our assignment of being the stone cut without hands, but we will have to learn a lot to pull it off.

You realize of course that if 3 happens we will have failed, right?

 

I don't see how a realization of #3 would be a failure.

[rockpond]

We have an increase in those members of the Church who would identify as "progressive" or some similar.

 

Progressives believe we are moving forward.  In some cases they claim that ordaining women, accepting SSM, less literal interpretation of scripture, all these things are moving us forward, progressing our understanding.

 

More traditionalists, ranging from the fundamentalist sects through to the more conservative groups within the Church are resistant to change, especially without clear revelation from God approving any change.

 

It's very similar to the way politics are viewed, and is definitely a spectrum.

 

My question/discussion topic is this:

When I read scripture and prophecy to me it seems there are three possibilities for the course we are on towards the return of our Savior.

1. The gospel was restored and we will wonder off course in our changes until a setting in order for the Savior's return.

2. The gospel continues to be restored and we will progress in our righteousness and understanding until the Savior returns.

3. The Church will progress in righteousness and truth while the world becomes more wicked - a widening separation.

 

I see evidences for all three.  Where you you feel we are heading?  Are we progressing?  Moving in the wrong direction?  Or are the wicked and the righteous becoming more separate (wheat & tares)?  Are the so-called "progressive" trends progression, regression, or separation?

 

Isn't it supposed to be all three?

[Brian 2.0]

I don't see how a realization of #3 would be a failure.

 

This brings up an interesting point.  What are the prophesies regarding the state of the church going forward and leading up to the 2nd coming?  Sometimes I hear the the stone cut out of the mountain and filling up the whole earth stuff.  Other times people say the world will get more and more wicked and the faithful in the church will be a small sliver.

 

What do the scriptures say about the growth and state of the church moving forward?

[bluebell]

This brings up an interesting point.  What are the prophesies regarding the state of the church going forward and leading up to the 2nd coming?  Sometimes I hear the the stone cut out of the mountain and filling up the whole earth stuff.  Other times people say the world will get more and more wicked and the faithful in the church will be a small sliver.

 

 

 

 

I don't see the two prophesies as being contradictory.  Just because the gospel fills the earth does not mean that those who accept it and embrace it will fill the earth.  

 

One thing the scriptures seem very clear on is that there are two paths for people to choose-the one that leads to eternal life is narrow and few find it.  I don't think the prophesy of the stone is meant to negate that.

[Brian 2.0]

I don't see the two prophesies as being contradictory.  Just because the gospel fills the earth does not mean that those who accept it and embrace it will fill the earth.  

 

One thing the scriptures seem very clear on is that there are two paths for people to choose-the one that leads to eternal life is narrow and few find it.  I don't think the prophesy of the stone is meant to negate that.

 

From Joseph Smith:

Brethren, I have been very much edified and instructed in your testimonies here tonight, but I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. . . . It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will [grow until it will] fill North and South America—it will fill the world.

 

 

Has this occurred?  Have we "filled" North and South America yet?

[Mystery Meat]

From Joseph Smith:

 

Has this occurred?  Have we "filled" North and South America yet?

 

I would say yes. That does not mean there is not room for more growth.

[Mystery Meat]

I am having a hard time distinguishing between option 2 and 3, but if I had to choose I would say 3.

[bluebell]

From Joseph Smith:

 

Has this occurred?  Have we "filled" North and South America yet?

 

Is there anywhere in those continents where the gospel is not available?  There are probably a few places still but i think it's definitely more filled than not.

[ERayR]

Progressing to where?

 

To where the devil stealthily leadeth their souls down to hell?

[ERayR]

This brings up an interesting point.  What are the prophesies regarding the state of the church going forward and leading up to the 2nd coming?  Sometimes I hear the the stone cut out of the mountain and filling up the whole earth stuff.  Other times people say the world will get more and more wicked and the faithful in the church will be a small sliver.

 

What do the scriptures say about the growth and state of the church moving forward?

 

Does the parable of the ten virgins suggest anything?

[Brian 2.0]

Is there anywhere in those continents where the gospel is not available?  There are probably a few places still but i think it's definitely more filled than not.

 

I guess it depends on how you are defining "filled".  When Joseph says that they can't even comprehend it, that though there are just a small handful now it will "fill"  the world... I have a hard time believing that "filled" means anything like 0.2% of the population.

 

I'm not sure "filled" simply means "available" in his quote.

[Mystery Meat]

I guess it depends on how you are defining "filled".  When Joseph says that they can't even comprehend it, that though there are just a small handful now it will "fill"  the world... I have a hard time believing that "filled" means anything like 0.2% of the population.

 

I'm not sure "filled" simply means "available" in his quote.

 

In the legal world, there is a mode of contract interpretation that courts will use to settle disputes. If two clauses in the K seem to contradict each other than they will find an interpretation that allows for both clauses to be consistent with each other.

 

I think we MUST do the same if we don't want to wrest the scriptures. Joseph Smith did prophesy that it would fill North and South America (not to mention the world); on the other hand, the BOM teaches that the Church's dominion would be small. Some might say they contradict. I don't think they do. I think there are interpretations (which would be correct) that allow for both to be true.

Edited May 11, 2015 by lvjd66

[Jeanne]

I think in an LDS world, it would depend on how much work God would want to do beyond the veil and during the milleniam (sp) To fill the earth could mean many things..as in when the world is cleansed.   If not..I believe it would be a misinterpretation of some universal truth we could not comprehend.

[Brian 2.0]

In the legal world, there is a mode of contract interpretation that courts will use to settle disputes. If two clauses in the K seem to contradict each other than they will find an interpretation that allows for both clauses to be consistent with each other.

I think we MUST do the same if we don't want to wrest the scriptures. Joseph Smith did prophesy that it would fill North and South America (not to mention the world); on the other hand, the BOM teaches that the Church's dominion would be small. Some might say they contradict. I don't think they do. I think there are interpretations (which would be correct) that allow for both to be true.

Good point. Valid viewpoint.

I guess I'm just more open to the idea that there is inconsistency and contradiction in the scriptural and revelation record.

[mfbukowski]

From Joseph Smith:

Has this occurred? Have we "filled" North and South America yet?

Every knee shall bow.

If we are His church, we have a few billion knees left. We could do much more

99% of the world has never even heard of Mormons

Edited May 16, 2015 by mfbukowski