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Status Of Facsimiles, Not In Scriptures On App

bjw

By bjw
in General Discussions

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bjw Rising Star

bjw

Posted
Posted

I just had a quick question. I've been busy and away from the boards for awhile so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I noticed when looking at the Scriptures in the Gospel Library app that the facsimiles are not included in the Pearl of Great Price. Is that only in the app edition of the Scriptures or has the church as a whole taken them out of the canon?

I know there is a new revision of the Scriptures being sold at the cdc but I haven't looked at them yet. Anyone know more? If they have been removed, has the church issued an official statement?

sheilauk Mentor

sheilauk

Posted
Posted (edited)

The facsimiles are still in the paper version. I don't think they have ever been in the online version. It may be too difficult to insert them online.

 

Edited: to be clear - by online version, i meant the library app on my tablet!

Edited by sheilauk
mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted

I can see the church moving away from the idea of a direct translation.  In order to do this, they will have to ditch the facsimiles.

No way.
DonBradley Experienced

DonBradley

Posted
Posted

I think the idea of the church suddenly removing a facsimiles hinges on a false perception of the Book of Abraham's origin and a misunderstanding of the processes of canonization/decanonization.

 

As the facsimiles and the mention of Facsimile 1 in Abraham 1 show, the papyri played a role (perhaps as a catalyst) in the production of the Book of Abraham. And Joseph gave prophetic interpretations of the facsimiles.

 

Also, when the Book of Abraham was canonized by the vote of the church, it was with the facsimiles as part of the book. Decanonization, like canonization, can only legitimately occur by the vote of the church. So, if the institutional church does remove the facsimiles, it should be only after the body of the church votes to decanonize them.

 

Don

2
bjw Rising Star

bjw

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Could it be the online version that has them but not the offline app? Mine is on a tablet, so maybe the version is different depending on the os. I hope they don't go the direction of taking them out, good to hear they're still in the print version.

Blah Enthusiast

Blah

Posted
Posted

I can remember trying to use the app to look at Book of Mormon Stories with my son during sacrament and the pictures wouldn't load because I wasn't on a wifi connection. Maybe that has something to do with it.

1
cinepro Grand Master

cinepro

Posted
Posted (edited)

I just checked, and the facsimiles are still in my paper-scriptures.  I bought them in 1995.

 

If the Church did remove them, absolutely nothing would change.  I can't recall them ever being referred to in a talk or lesson in my 40+ years going to Church.

Edited by cinepro
1
Brian 2.0 Veteran

Brian 2.0

Posted
Posted

I think the idea of the church suddenly removing a facsimiles hinges on a false perception of the Book of Abraham's origin and a misunderstanding of the processes of canonization/decanonization.

 

As the facsimiles and the mention of Facsimile 1 in Abraham 1 show, the papyri played a role (perhaps as a catalyst) in the production of the Book of Abraham. And Joseph gave prophetic interpretations of the facsimiles.

 

Also, when the Book of Abraham was canonized by the vote of the church, it was with the facsimiles as part of the book. Decanonization, like canonization, can only legitimately occur by the vote of the church. So, if the institutional church does remove the facsimiles, it should be only after the body of the church votes to decanonize them.

 

Don

 

Has anything been decanonized before?  Was this protocol followed?

mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted

I think the idea of the church suddenly removing a facsimiles hinges on a false perception of the Book of Abraham's origin and a misunderstanding of the processes of canonization/decanonization.

 

As the facsimiles and the mention of Facsimile 1 in Abraham 1 show, the papyri played a role (perhaps as a catalyst) in the production of the Book of Abraham. And Joseph gave prophetic interpretations of the facsimiles.

 

Also, when the Book of Abraham was canonized by the vote of the church, it was with the facsimiles as part of the book. Decanonization, like canonization, can only legitimately occur by the vote of the church. So, if the institutional church does remove the facsimiles, it should be only after the body of the church votes to decanonize them.

 

Don

It appears to me that the church is moving more in the direction of a catalyst theory, though perhaps on a bit modified from the theory we now have.

But for ANY catalyst theory to make sense, there needs to be a CATALYST!

No facsimiles, no catalyst. It's that simple as far as I am concerned. They must be retained as an example of how such a catalyst could have worked, if nothing else.

I have personally found the facsimiles valuable in understanding the symbolism of the signs and tokens, but of course we cannot go into that

bjw Rising Star

bjw

Posted
  • Author
Posted

If the church ever does accept a catalyst theory it will nullify the research of Hugh Nibley, which according to Stephen Morgan was condoned by Neil Maxwell, as well as many other publications from Deseret Book and church subsidiaries. While Nibley and other LDS scholars have theories that only make sense in an LDS paradigm, it seems the church would be seen to the secular world as "taking the easy way out" in my opinion.

If we view the facsimiles as a restoration of the original intention of the documents as temple materials, with a prophecy from Joseph Smith that the Lord would later reveal the meanings in the incomplete translations of facsimile 2, the recent findings from LDS scholars could even be seen as a fulfillment of these prophecies. Also, it would further the Mormon doctrine of all religions containing some remnant of the original lost truths.

Just my two cents on why I think they should remain in the canon. I think it's sad they can't be accessed from the app on some devices, and I think it would be cool if the Pearl of Great Price got its own year in the Gospel Doctrine class. I know reading some of the different authors, not just Nibley, have strengthened my faith concerning this topic, and the correlation committee might do well to integrate some of this research.

Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
Posted (edited)

All three facsimiles are present in the Gospel Library app on my iPod touch (iOS 8.3).

Since it seems fairly certain that this thread is based on a mistaken premise, I propose it be closed. It can't go anywhere from here except to branch out into peripheral subjects which would more efficiently discussed in their own separate threads.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
bjw Rising Star

bjw

Posted
  • Author
Posted

All three facsimiles are present in the Gospel Library app on my iPod touch (iOS 8.3).Since it seems fairly certain that this thread is based on a mistaken premise, I propose it be closed. It can't go anywhere from here except to branch out into peripheral subjects which would more efficiently discussed in their own separate threads.

Sorry, it was not my intention to deviate from the original question. I am using the gospel library app offline on my samsung galaxy 3 tab and I can assure you I have checked my boa several times and it is not showing the facsimiles, only the individual chapters. If there is something I am missing that may have caused them to not download I'd like to know, but I know it's not just because of images because my app has shown visuals in other sources. It may just be my operating system as I thought. I'll keep checking though. Again, sorry for going off-topic.
  • 1 month later...
stemelbow Grand Master

stemelbow

Posted
Posted

I just checked, and the facsimiles are still in my paper-scriptures.  I bought them in 1995.

 

If the Church did remove them, absolutely nothing would change.  I can't recall them ever being referred to in a talk or lesson in my 40+ years going to Church.

Same thoughts came from me, but I dont' have 40+ years to boast about it. Getting there though.

Most wouldn't notice as most haven't really noticed the facsimiles to begin with. The Church could easily get away with quietly stop including them in new scriptures.

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