The Gun Fight At The Carthage Jail

[theplains]

I came across this passage while reading volume 6 of History of the Church.

 

"There is one principle which is eternal: It is the duty of all men to protect their 

lives and the lives of their household, whenever necessity requires, and no power 

has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive ...

 

When the jail in Carthage was assailed, and the mob was pouring murderous volleys 

into the room occupied by himself and friends, the Prophet turned from the prostrate 

form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire 

of his assailants, bringing his man down every time, and compelling even John Hay, who 

but reluctantly accords the Prophet any quality of virtue, to confess that he made a 

handsome fight in the jail".

 

I can imagine the need for self defence to preserve your family, but do you suppose 

this is the path the early New Testament apostles would have followed  if they were 

imprisoned with swords and then attacked by an angry mob?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Scott Lloyd]

 

I came across this passage while reading volume 6 of History of the Church.

 

"There is one principle which is eternal: It is the duty of all men to protect their 

lives and the lives of their household, whenever necessity requires, and no power 

has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive ...

 

When the jail in Carthage was assailed, and the mob was pouring murderous volleys 

into the room occupied by himself and friends, the Prophet turned from the prostrate 

form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire 

of his assailants, bringing his man down every time, and compelling even John Hay, who 

but reluctantly accords the Prophet any quality of virtue, to confess that he made a 

handsome fight in the jail".

 

I can imagine the need for self defence to preserve your family, but do you suppose 

this is the path the early New Testament apostles would have followed  if they were 

imprisoned with swords and then attacked by an angry mob?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

I don't see why not.

 

And by the way, your characterizing it as a "gunfight" is offensive and misleading.

 

Just so you know.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

So if tomorrow a band of lawless vigilantes broke into a prison to assassinate someone indicted but not convicted held on charges of property destruction and that person had a gun and shot back you would characterize that as a "gun battle" and not an "assassination" or "assault" or "murder"? Because if so you are an idiot. Just saying.

[Freedom]

 

I came across this passage while reading volume 6 of History of the Church.

 

"There is one principle which is eternal: It is the duty of all men to protect their 

lives and the lives of their household, whenever necessity requires, and no power 

has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive ...

 

When the jail in Carthage was assailed, and the mob was pouring murderous volleys 

into the room occupied by himself and friends, the Prophet turned from the prostrate 

form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire 

of his assailants, bringing his man down every time, and compelling even John Hay, who 

but reluctantly accords the Prophet any quality of virtue, to confess that he made a 

handsome fight in the jail".

 

I can imagine the need for self defence to preserve your family, but do you suppose 

this is the path the early New Testament apostles would have followed  if they were 

imprisoned with swords and then attacked by an angry mob?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

I seem to remember a certain apostle cutting off an ear when he wasn't even being personally threatened. The fact that you bring up this argument suggests that no disciple of Christ should ever defend themselves under any circumstances. Why would you hold such a position? 

[theplains]

I seem to remember a certain apostle cutting off an ear when he wasn't even being personally threatened. The fact that you bring up this argument suggests that no disciple of Christ should ever defend themselves under any circumstances. Why would you hold such a position? 

 

Jesus was against that cutting off of the ear.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Freedom]

Jesus was against that cutting off of the ear.

 

Regards,

Jim

Are you moving the goal posts? Your question was concerning the apostles not Jesus. 

 

Besides, the Jesus I worship took some pretty aggressive action in a temple, or so the story goes. And this same Jesus had the Old Testament prophets engage in some rather violent interactions with neighboring peoples. But you didn't answer my question. 

[teddyaware]

 

I came across this passage while reading volume 6 of History of the Church.

 

"There is one principle which is eternal: It is the duty of all men to protect their 

lives and the lives of their household, whenever necessity requires, and no power 

has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive ...

 

When the jail in Carthage was assailed, and the mob was pouring murderous volleys 

into the room occupied by himself and friends, the Prophet turned from the prostrate 

form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire 

of his assailants, bringing his man down every time, and compelling even John Hay, who 

but reluctantly accords the Prophet any quality of virtue, to confess that he made a 

handsome fight in the jail".

 

I can imagine the need for self defence to preserve your family, but do you suppose 

this is the path the early New Testament apostles would have followed  if they were 

imprisoned with swords and then attacked by an angry mob?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

Joseph Smith had his wife and several young children at home. If under those circumstances the prophet didn't fight like a man for his life so that he might live for his loved ones, I would most definitely think less of him. There is no shame in fighting for one's life against an armed murderous mob. 

[Flyonthewall]

I don't know... a 3 shot pistol does not a "gunfight" make...

[Scott Lloyd]

Joseph Smith had his wife and several young children at home. If under those circumstances the prophet didn't fight like a man for his life so that he might live for his loved ones, I would most definitely think less of him. There is no shame in fighting for one's life against an armed murderous mob. 

Plus, he was defending two other men in the room with him who weren't there as accused but simply as caring friends.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't know... a 3 shot pistol does not a "gunfight" make...

Yeah.

 

I've said it before but will repeat it. Characterizing what happened at Carthage as a "gunfight" is despicable.

[theplains]

Are you moving the goal posts? Your question was concerning the apostles not Jesus.

 

I would say it was wrong what Peter did.  I think he was trying to kill him but actually missed

and only got his ear.  As for the apostles, we don't see anything recorded in the canon that

they replied with violence to their harsh treatment after Pentecost.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Scott Lloyd]

I would say it was wrong what Peter did.  I think he was trying to kill him but actually missed

and only got his ear.  As for the apostles, we don't see anything recorded in the canon that

they replied with violence to their harsh treatment after Pentecost.

 

Thanks,

Jim

Was anyone attempting to murder them at the time?

[theplains]

Was anyone attempting to murder them at the time?

 

No. But rash Peter was thinking he would save the day.  Him and the others became changed

men after Pentecost. 

 

Jim

[Freedom]

I would say it was wrong what Peter did.  I think he was trying to kill him but actually missed

and only got his ear.  As for the apostles, we don't see anything recorded in the canon that

they replied with violence to their harsh treatment after Pentecost.

 

Thanks,

Jim

In other words your own answer to your question is 'yes' but you still have not answered mine. 

[JLHPROF]

Jesus was against that cutting off of the ear.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

Jesus took a whip to people and chased them out of the temple and recommended his apostles buy themselves some swords.  True, nobody got shot, but still...

And plenty of people are going to lose their lives when Christ returns and burns the wicked....not to mention all the natural disasters leading up to it.

 

David killed Goliath and God made him King of Israel.

God commanded the Israelites to destroy entire nations.

Elijah had 450 priests killed.

 

 

So are we really going with the "prophet using a gun is bad" idea cause it doesn't have any validity.

[Scott Lloyd]

No. But rash Peter was thinking he would save the day.  Him and the others became changed

men after Pentecost. 

 

Jim

Your answer wasn't responsive.

 

Was anyone attempting to kill the apostles at Pentecost?

 

If not, then your comparison of their experience to Joseph attempting to defend himself and others doesn't apply.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Sleeper Cell]

 

I can imagine the need for self defence to preserve your family, but do you suppose 

this is the path the early New Testament apostles would have followed  if they were 

imprisoned with swords and then attacked by an angry mob?

 

 

Do you suppose the NT apostles would approve of your casting aspersions on a murder victim simply because he attempted to defend his life?  

 

Perhaps had the good Christian folk of Carthage spent as much time trying to prevent Joseph Smith’s murder as you and others like you spend trying to find fault with his conduct as he was being murdered, even the Mormons wouldn’t be calling him a martyr.  

[Sevenbak]

I imagine Joseph didn't have to look too much further than Captain Moroni for the justification to try to protect himself his friends, his family, and the church.

[Freedom]

theplains,

Please answer this questions:

A person comes into  your house with a gun threatening to kill you. Do you open your arms and help him get a better shot or do you do all you can do to defend yourself? 

Assuming you say you would defend yourself, would this choice change if it turns out that the man with the gun also hated your religion?

[Rivers]

Plus, he was defending two other men in the room with him who weren't there as accused but simply as caring friends.

Plus he just watched his older brother get killed.

[CCRW]

Plus, he was defending two other men in the room with him who weren't there as accused but simply as caring friends.

I was always amazed at Taylor's survival.  He must have been a pretty incredible man

[JLHPROF]

I was always amazed at Taylor's survival.  He must have been a pretty incredible man

 

If you read the accounts of his days on the underground, he gets even more impressive.  He thumbed his nose at the government, told all the doubters where they could go.  He married his last wife at age 78, when she was 26 while in hiding.

If you believe any of the fundamentalist accounts out there he was even tougher than that.

[Kemara]

Your premise seems to have changed slightly from your original post and now seems to hang on an attitudinal change in the NT Apostles due to their Pentecost experience. As such can you please explain why the Pentecost experience would have shaped and/or changed the Apostles attitude towards defending themselves, their family and their friends from a mob of murdering cut throats and why it would have to have differed from Joseph.

[Garden Girl]

The "gun fight" at the Carthage Jail??!!  Surely even you, Jim, can't be that disingenuous...

A small "pepperbox" pistol was smuggled in to Joseph... From what I understand (related previously on this board) John Taylor described the scene... the mob was firing their rifles through the door into the room as Joseph and the others tried to hold the door shut... Joseph reached around the door and fired blindly into the mob, hitting two or three of the mob (only 3 of the six chambers fired)... none of those in the mob hit died of their wounds at that time... one died later but I'm not sure it was a result of having been shot... the mob of course overpowered the men in the room and entered the room with rifles blasting...  

Anyway, to describe this as a gun fight is not only ridiculous but purposely misleading...

 

GG

Edited April 21, 2015 by Garden Girl

[sjdawg]

I am a former LDS member (technically inactive I suppose but I don't consider myself LDS).   I have plenty of areas of disagreement with the LDS church history, LDS teachings, etc.   Joseph Smith having and using a gun in Carthage against a mob hellbent on killing him has never caused me a moments concern.   It seems reasonable to try and protect yourself and those around you.   A complete non-issue for me.