SmileyMcGee Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 I can imagine any human whose life is being threatened to act as JS did, even early apostles, assuming they weren't idiots.
mfbukowski Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 I seem to remember a certain apostle cutting off an ear when he wasn't even being personally threatened. The fact that you bring up this argument suggests that no disciple of Christ should ever defend themselves under any circumstances. Why would you hold such a position?Thank you for not just buying in to his ridiculous presumptions.Clearly we have no evidence for what they may or may not have done, and it is irrelevant anyway.We are dealing with two vastly different cultures, times, technologies and situations.I suppose if the Romans attacked the apostles, they would have just sat there and died, and the gospel would never have been preached? Ridiculous. 2
mfbukowski Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Deleted Edited April 21, 2015 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 theplains,Please answer this questions:A person comes into your house with a gun threatening to kill you. Do you open your arms and help him get a better shot or do you do all you can do to defend yourself? Assuming you say you would defend yourself, would this choice change if it turns out that the man with the gun also hated your religion?Maybe he should move to Syria and see if he passes the test. 2
Thinking Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 The pistol is a non-starter.The simple fact is Joseph Smith was murdered. It was wrong and if the LDS Church calls him a martyr, that's fine. However, being a martyr does not automatically justify the cause for which he was martyred. I understand why some people object to that label because of the events leading up to his death. I also don't have a problem with the pistol. If I knew a mob wanted to kill me and I had an opportunity to defend myself with a weapon, I would.
carbon dioxide Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 If I was in a jail and my loved ones are with me and a mob comes to kill me, you bet I would fight back. Give me a 50 caliber machine gun.
Sevenbak Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Alma and Amulek come to mind. They weren't able to fight back in jail, but the Lord leveled the place and killed all the Nehor types and everyone else. (my apologies to The Nehor, and any lawyers in the house...)
ALarson Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) The pistol is a non-starter. The simple fact is Joseph Smith was murdered. It was wrong and if the LDS Church calls him a martyr, that's fine. However, being a martyr does not automatically justify the cause for which he was martyred. I understand why some people object to that label because of the events leading up to his death. I also don't have a problem with the pistol. If I knew a mob wanted to kill me and I had an opportunity to defend myself with a weapon, I would.This is how I feel about this too. I do remember being surprised (not shocked) when I first learned that Joseph Smith had a gun and fired back at the mob, just because this had never been a part of the story that I'd heard growing up in the church. But, I immediately thought, "Good for Joseph!". I don't understand anyone criticizing him for fighting for his life and the lives of those he loved with everything and anything he could use. He had a gun and he used it. Who wouldn't have if they were in his position? Edited April 21, 2015 by ALarson
stemelbow Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 I came across this passage while reading volume 6 of History of the Church. "There is one principle which is eternal: It is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive ... When the jail in Carthage was assailed, and the mob was pouring murderous volleys into the room occupied by himself and friends, the Prophet turned from the prostrate form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire of his assailants, bringing his man down every time, and compelling even John Hay, who but reluctantly accords the Prophet any quality of virtue, to confess that he made a handsome fight in the jail". I can imagine the need for self defence to preserve your family, but do you suppose this is the path the early New Testament apostles would have followed if they were imprisoned with swords and then attacked by an angry mob? Thanks, Jim Are we to assume all of them would react the same? As if Joseph, Peter, John, Paul, James etc are all the same person?
Storm Rider Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 I came across this passage while reading volume 6 of History of the Church. "There is one principle which is eternal: It is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive ... When the jail in Carthage was assailed, and the mob was pouring murderous volleys into the room occupied by himself and friends, the Prophet turned from the prostrate form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire of his assailants, bringing his man down every time, and compelling even John Hay, who but reluctantly accords the Prophet any quality of virtue, to confess that he made a handsome fight in the jail". I can imagine the need for self defence to preserve your family, but do you suppose this is the path the early New Testament apostles would have followed if they were imprisoned with swords and then attacked by an angry mob? Thanks,Jim Yes; I think of Peter who took a sword and cut off the ear of a guard. Next question.
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 If I knew my life could be ended at any moment, I'd be packing.
thesometimesaint Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) If I knew my life could be ended at any moment, I'd be packing. Having packed for more than a few years. There are just two things you worry about. Having to use it, and not using it when you have to. . Edited April 22, 2015 by thesometimesaint
sunstoned Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 The gun JS used has been on display in the museum across the street from Temple square. I also remember reading about the events of Carthage in seminary, and these accounts included joseph firing back in self defense. I find nothing dishonorable about this at all. Everyone has a right to defend one's self. I am surprised, given the circumstances that others in the room with JS had not armed themselves.
williamsmith Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 Jesus was against that cutting off of the ear. Regards,Jim That's because Christ was supposed to go, and it wasn't meant for the Apostles to die yet. But you will note however, that if Christ had been against violence, the Apostles wouldn't have been carrying Swords in the first place.Clearly Christ was perfectly fine with self defense and the defense of others when need be. 1
why me Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) I came across this passage while reading volume 6 of History of the Church. "There is one principle which is eternal: It is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive ... When the jail in Carthage was assailed, and the mob was pouring murderous volleys into the room occupied by himself and friends, the Prophet turned from the prostrate form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire of his assailants, bringing his man down every time, and compelling even John Hay, who but reluctantly accords the Prophet any quality of virtue, to confess that he made a handsome fight in the jail". I can imagine the need for self defence to preserve your family, but do you suppose this is the path the early New Testament apostles would have followed if they were imprisoned with swords and then attacked by an angry mob? Thanks,Jim Joseph showed his humanity in his defense of his friends and of his lifeless brother. No one can predict just how they would react when they watch their brother gunned down and their friends also shot at. Joseph, who experienced persecution before, did what he had to do and certainly the men who were there with him were grateful to him. We know very little of New Testament apostles but we do know that Peter cut off an ear of a centurion. I am sure that the apostles believed in fighting back if they felt the need to do so. We need to get away from hollywood and their interpretation of who the apostles were. And even though jesus was against cutting off the ear, Peter's humanity came through with an emotion to protect those he loved. Edited April 22, 2015 by why me 1
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