thesometimesaint Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 You're beating a dead horse. The LDS have looked long and hard at your supposed "new thought" and found it very wanting. Now tell us your religion so we can tell you what's wrong with it.
bluebell Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 I don't care how numerous any topic has been discussed...and that would be any topic.....sometimes a new thought by someone, a new idea can come forth....yet all knowing Garden Girl knows it all...wow then shows a jackass being BEATEN with a stick....NICE It's just a horse being beaten with a stick and is commonly used on any topic that has been 'beaten to death' or with any poster who is 'beating a dead horse' by continuing with a topic that has been discussed multiple times (as the popular saying goes). It's not an insult so much as a way to express exasperation. 1
Freedom Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Please answer my questions rather than engaging in derogatory comments. 3
Freedom Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 yet all knowing Garden Girl knows it all...How old are you, 12? How do you suppose that mocking and insulting others will at all give credibility to your position. Do you have any genuine scholarship to support your position? 4
Kenngo1969 Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 My brain is so toast ... who was it, name is on the tip of my tounge ... went in active for a spell, came back to the church a few fews back and in the last two years or so did a paper on this?Don Bradley, maybe?
Kenngo1969 Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 ... Joseph never states himself that he translated any of these plates, and he spent very little time and energy on them. In this issue, i don't believe that can be ignored.Not to mention that the only accounts we have of Joseph allegedly attempting to translate are second-hand, at best.
Popular Post Calm Posted April 19, 2015 Popular Post Posted April 19, 2015 I don't care how numerous any topic has been discussed...and that would be any topic.....sometimes a new thought by someone, a new idea can come forth....yet all knowing Garden Girl knows it all...wow then shows a jackass being BEATEN with a stick....NICEThere are certain posters where if you responded to with a sarcastic dismissal, you would probably get an understanding pass at going personal.GG is not one of those posters. This response only makes you look like someone looking for an argument, not a discussion. 7
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted April 19, 2015 Popular Post Posted April 19, 2015 How old are you, 12? How do you suppose that mocking and insulting others will at all give credibility to your position. Do you have any genuine scholarship to support your position? There are certain posters where if you responded to with a sarcastic dismissal, you would probably get an understanding pass at going personal.GG is not one of those posters. This response only makes you look like someone looking for an argument, not a discussion. I am all for reasoned, open discussion, but he likes an in your face, down your throat, everything at once approach. It screams "young zealot out to prove the foolish Mormons wrong using tired old anti arguments".He actually seems pretty knowledgeable of these arguments for which I give him full credit, but he has no interest in the responses and doesn't realize or care that we've already heard them all and they won't change any of our minds or testimonies of Joseph. I can't speak for anyone else here, but as for me, he could show me a live action video of Joseph conspiring with other leaders to deceive the saints with all these "frauds" he brings up, and it still wouldn't change my mind. What Joseph restored is the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't care about his imaginary character flaws, its origins, that it contradicts traditional Biblical interpretations, that people object to some of his teachings, or anything else. The fruit is good and the word is true. Nothing else matters. 5
jackson20 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 Documentary evidence shows that Smith believed these were genuinely found in an archaeological dig and there is no written record he ever thought they were forgeries. The LDS response to the diary statements is that the quotes were not written by Smith himself, but rather found in the journal of William Clayton. The details surrounding the diary entry are ambiguous enough that it may be accurate to state Clayton was the one who made the entry. Nevertheless, Clayton was admittedly a confidant of Joseph Smith and a well respected Mormon. And, here's the curious part: For about 140 years, these statements were officially attributed to Smith by the LDS church. This is like a witness whose story changes in court on the stand. Which story should we believe; the first one or the second? The church was willing to attribute the diary quote to Smith as long as the plates were assumed to be genuine. Then, when the plates were proven to be fraudulent, the story changed.
carbon dioxide Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Jack: You honor, I would like to submit evidence from William Clayton that Joseph Smith made a translation of the Kinderhook plates. Bill: Objection your honor. Hearsay. Judge Hector Rodriguez-Gomez; Sustained. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 My brain is so toast ... who was it, name is on the tip of my tounge ... went in active for a spell, came back to the church a few fews back and in the last two years or so did a paper on this?Don Bradley, http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf. 1
Garden Girl Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 You're beating a dead horse. The LDS have looked long and hard at your supposed "new thought" and found it very wanting. Now tell us your religion so we can tell you what's wrong with it. GG
jackson20 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 Jack: You honor, I would like to submit evidence from William Clayton that Joseph Smith made a translation of the Kinderhook plates. Bill: Objection your honor. Hearsay. Judge Hector Rodriguez-Gomez; Sustained. Judge Hector Rodriguez-Gomez: changed my mind, I now lean towards Don Bradley's thoughts on the matter. See video
JLHPROF Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Judge Hector Rodriguez-Gomez: changed my mind, I now lean towards Don Bradley's thoughts on the matter. See video I am sincerely curious. What is your purpose, goal, or hoped for result in posting on this board?
Robert F. Smith Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 ah the old single apostle/fallible option ... apologetics are so crazy sometimes ... maybe things would turn out just fine if "the Church" was enabled by the members to be just as fallible as its GA's are allowed to be. And heaven forbit the GA's would lead the way, crack that pride and admit error (let alone consider an apology). Well, enough from me on this oneThe false doctrine of infallibility is so strong for some people within Mormonism that it can easily lead to apostasy when they imagine that some leader has failed to measure up. On the one hand this false notion can lead people to laud and compliment ordinary leaders as though they were gods incarnate, and to write faith-promoting accounts of their lives -- entirely ignoring real faults. On the other, it produces unrealistic expectations which no one can meet, thus disappointing the yokel who has such high expectations. Either way, you lose confidence and apostatize. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Documentary evidence shows that Smith believed these were genuinely found in an archaeological dig and there is no written record he ever thought they were forgeries. The LDS response to the diary statements is that the quotes were not written by Smith himself, but rather found in the journal of William Clayton. The details surrounding the diary entry are ambiguous enough that it may be accurate to state Clayton was the one who made the entry. Nevertheless, Clayton was admittedly a confidant of Joseph Smith and a well respected Mormon. And, here's the curious part: For about 140 years, these statements were officially attributed to Smith by the LDS church. This is like a witness whose story changes in court on the stand. Which story should we believe; the first one or the second? The church was willing to attribute the diary quote to Smith as long as the plates were assumed to be genuine. Then, when the plates were proven to be fraudulent, the story changed.Cut and paste from what site? 1
jackson20 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 I am sincerely curious. What is your purpose, goal, or hoped for result in posting on this board?good question. curiosity in how people's minds work....just being honest.....it's been an eye opener...... interesting observing who stretches their thoughts and is not locked down with fear or complacency or habit.mostly just a Truth seekercertainly I am aware that I get over zealous at times....
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted April 19, 2015 Popular Post Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) good question. curiosity in how people's minds work....just being honest.....it's been an eye opener...... interesting observing who stretches their thoughts and is not locked down with fear or complacency or habit.mostly just a Truth seekercertainly I am aware that I get over zealous at times.... I'm not sure I believe you, but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.Just be aware that the list of traditional Christians who have come here trying to "prove Mormonism a fraud", especially using Biblical quotes and old anti-mormon claims is VERY long. And none have been successful that I am aware of, most leave or end up being banned for preaching. But if you are interested in knowing WHY we believe in Mormonism even with some more questionable historical events, how our minds work as you put it, then perhaps you should ask instead of trying to convince us our religion is one big fraud. Edited April 19, 2015 by JLHPROF 7
jackson20 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 Cut and paste from what site? Information About God - What are the Kinderhook Plates?informationaboutgod.com/articles/misc_religion/kinderhook.php
jackson20 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Posted April 19, 2015 Jack: You honor, I would like to submit evidence from William Clayton that Joseph Smith made a translation of the Kinderhook plates. Bill: Objection your honor. Hearsay. Judge Hector Rodriguez-Gomez; Sustained. Carbon D....here is an absolutely fantastic podcast to listen to. It answers a lot of question you have asked me. I hope we can all take the time to listen to this carefully with listening open ears. Episode 189: The Kinderhook Plates for Dummies - Mormon ...mormonexpression.com/2012/.../189-the-kinderhook-plates-for-dummie....
CCRW Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 The false doctrine of infallibility is so strong for some people within Mormonism that it can easily lead to apostasy when they imagine that some leader has failed to measure up. On the one hand this false notion can lead people to laud and compliment ordinary leaders as though they were gods incarnate, and to write faith-promoting accounts of their lives -- entirely ignoring real faults. On the other, it produces unrealistic expectations which no one can meet, thus disappointing the yokel who has such high expectations. Either way, you lose confidence and apostatize. I know I did (put many on pedestals). Then of course the pendulum swinging to the other extreme, hung up on old leaders, finding fault in what appeared as softening and changing doctrines. The hard fall, tossed to and fro I suppose.I do appreciate the patience shown to me here. It was good for me to step away from the other as I feel a chance of putting a lot of junk behind, maybe the pendulum can stick closer to center.
CCRW Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) Hey jackson, thanks for the pm ... don't fear opening up publically, no one here will actually bite ya. I did not turn against you. I was never either with you or against you. I'm just an old dumb guy ... but their are some brillent people here. They have been around the block a time or two. They are individuals, with families, jobs, trials and tribulations ... just like you. Many of us have been on these boards for many years. Respect is good, very intellegent discussion is possible. Join in. Edited April 19, 2015 by CCRW
Popular Post Glenn101 Posted April 19, 2015 Popular Post Posted April 19, 2015 Other than the entry in Clayton's journal, can anyone present us with an actual translation or purported translation of any portion of the plates??? Or maybe one should read and heed the words of Wilbur Fugate, who said in a letter dated April 8, 1878, said “We understood Jo Smith said [the plates] would make a book of 1200 pages but he would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian society at Philadelphia, France, and England.” Link Fugate was one of three who had devised the scheme hoping to expose Joseph as a fraud. He seemed to be disappointed that Joseph actually wanted the plates to be tested for authenticity. But that does not make good news for some. Glenn 5
Calm Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 good question. curiosity in how people's minds work....just being honest.....it's been an eye opener...... interesting observing who stretches their thoughts and is not locked down with fear or complacency or habit.mostly just a Truth seekercertainly I am aware that I get over zealous at times....Anyone who judges others' openness to ideas based on participation in a few threads over a few days is much more likely to end up with falsehoods than Truth. 3
Sevenbak Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Other than the entry in Clayton's journal, can anyone present us with an actual translation or purported translation of any portion of the plates??? Or maybe one should read and heed the words of Wilbur Fugate, who said in a letter dated April 8, 1878, said “We understood Jo Smith said [the plates] would make a book of 1200 pages but he would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian society at Philadelphia, France, and England.” Link Fugate was one of three who had devised the scheme hoping to expose Joseph as a fraud. He seemed to be disappointed that Joseph actually wanted the plates to be tested for authenticity. But that does not make good news for some. GlennLet's assume for a moment that Joseph knew a thing or two about the history of this country, and the mounds and remains they were found in with. Did he have knowledge of who the Jaredites were? Possibly. There is some evidence that he said they were descendants of Ham, or at least some were. Did he actually translate the plates? There is no factual basis for that. Did he know how much massive information came from the 24 gold plates that comprised the sealed portion and Book of Ether? I think he likely had some idea. Was he estimating about 1200 pages based on the 6 K. plates if he assumed they were of a similar language to the Jaredite plates? Likely. At any rate, that fact that he wanted them authenticated seems pretty strait forward that he wasn't going to weary the Lord before doing his due own diligence. That is, after all, how revelation works, regardless of what the anti's coming here would have us believe how a prophet should prophecy. At the very least, the words of the Lord spoken to him in D&C 10, after the 116 pages were stolen, likely stayed with him his whole life. That was a trying time for him and he learned a thing or two about wicked men wanting to deceive. No translation was ever recorded of the K. plates, and nothing but a premilinary appraisal at best is given, even by other sources. 2
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