Book Of Mormon---Fact Or Fiction

[jackson20]

Virtually everything you have written and copied. I would be specific but that would require effort which your lazy slapdash posting does not deserve when I could do something more productive like go to college to become a pimp, teach myself to play the banjo, or stare at a wall and attempt to develop X-ray vision.

Please go away you incredibly boring hack.

Just pick something specific and stop side stepping. I may be direct and a bit over zealous. I am also very new to  this.  I have a learning curve I will surmount. I may  not have gathered a finesse YET, as far as delivery. I have however learned a lot in the past few days.  One thing I have learned from comments about lds...they appear hateful.   That said a couple are the exception---Don Bradley being one. And the one and only real lds I know is a saint.

Again just pick something specific and get your kickers out of a knot. 

 

I am not about to engage further with such banter. If you don't like my approach, maybe take your advise to me "please go away''. That was mean spirited at the very least...is common in your faith?

[ERayR]

Taking one for the team again, Nehor?

 

You have to admit(at least from my POV) he has got it right.

[Calm]

Dude he did not TRY to translate them...He DID translate a portion...please get your facts and history in order. He did NOT abandon them...frankly he would have continued his  fraudulant translation if he hadn't died a month later. 

Missed this claim earlier:

 

The Kinderhooks plates showed up in JS's possession in April/May 1843, he was murdered in June 1844.

 

He died over a year later, not a month later.

Edited April 20, 2015 by calmoriah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

Jackson,

 

A couple things...

 

First, did you look at my KP translation explanation? It accounts for how JS could have believed he got that much text from a single character. Far from "inconceivable," it's perfectly explicable.

 

Second, you're still conflating being deceived by others with purposely deceiving others. If JS believed the Kinderhook plates were genuine and believed he had a translation tool, he could easily, if mistakenly, believe he was doing genuine translation from the KPs. In fact, there are lots of cases where sincere people have believed they translated something from records that turned out to be fake.

 

Lastly, if anything, the fact that Joseph Smith was fooled by the Kinderhook plates weighs in favor of his sincerity. If he had faked his own claim to find ancient metal plates, how likely would he be to fall for someone else's claim to have done the same? Isn't it the liars who are most on the look out for other people to be lying to them? 

 

Joseph Smith being deceived by others and Joseph Smith deceiving others are not positively correlated. And if anything, they are negatively correlated: a Joseph Smith who would trust others' claims to find metal plates is more likely to have been honest about finding plates himself.

 

Don

 

Don

Just a thought, the best way to prove JS was a false prophet is to have him translate something that has already been translated and see how he does.

 

I like the way you are thinking on this and I think you are correct.

 

I have an additional thought. It seems that Jackson20 thinks that prophets are more like fortune tellers. The fact that JS tried to translate it and the the early leaders thought the KHP were real is proof, in and of it's self, that they are false prophets and for no other reason.

 

I am not sure that is a very good argument.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Kinderhooks plates showed up in JS's possession in April/May 1843, he was murdered in June 1844.

 

He died over a year later, not a month later.

Speaking of facts.

[Avatar4321]

I can't help but notice that despite starting a thread about the book of Mormon, Jackson has no desire to discuss it.

[JLHPROF]

Just pick something specific and stop side stepping. I may be direct and a bit over zealous. I am also very new to  this.  I have a learning curve I will surmount. I may  not have gathered a finesse YET, as far as delivery. I have however learned a lot in the past few days.

 

We are always open for reasoned debate and discussion.  There are many on this board who actually share your view and we discussion quite politely even though we differ.  3DOP, Daniel Woods, Canadaigua, coolrok7, Valentinus, Saemo, and others all are non-Mormons and Christians and manage to discuss with the Mormons here just fine (even though we often have heated debates).

 

Or you can continue to take the same approach as our recently departed "Holy Catholic" and a long list of others who don't follow board guidelines by mocking other's beliefs, bombard the board with lengthy posts, and end up getting kicked off.  Seriously, there's a new arrival every couple of months and they usually last less than a month.  Because they aren't really here to discuss.

 

We are always happy to have reasonable discussions.

[The Nehor]

Just pick something specific and stop side stepping.

 

No, you have copied and pasted everything. If I debate a specific point with you you will type my response into Google and copy a rebuttal no matter how off-target. I refuse to debate with someone whose responses be unable to pass a Turing Test.

 

Just pick something specific and stop side stepping. I may be direct and a bit over zealous. I am also very new to  this.  I have a learning curve I will surmount. I may  not have gathered a finesse YET, as far as delivery. I have however learned a lot in the past few days.  One thing I have learned from comments about lds...they appear hateful.   That said a couple are the exception---Don Bradley being one. And the one and only real lds I know is a saint.

 

You need to learn a lot more before you can start a real discussion. You are going to get banned before you learn if you keep this up.

 

As to how mean we are....welp, allow me to walk you through a close approximation of your thought process in posting this thread with a lot more self-awareness than you did:

 

Okay, I think I can convince some Mormons they are wrong. I should beard the lion in his den. This message board looks good. Lots of Mormons there. I am so brave to brazenly charge in and challenge them. I am like Daniel defying the king. This is going to be awesome. Well, I suppose not. I mean there is no real physical danger and they will not know who I am but you know, close enough.

 

I just need to find something that proves Joseph Smith was a fraud. Let's see, I will be discussing this with people who love and revere him and many of them have probably spent a lot of time studying his life. Hmmmm...well, a Google search should solve this. Let's see.....polygamy.....nah, sounds complicated. So Joseph Smith translated something called the Book of Mormon. I suppose I could read the book or at least read about it but it is probably long. Pass.

 

Ah-ha! Kinderhook plates. This proves he could not translate. No need to read up on it. I can just copy this for the OP. I like the bit about how this destroys Joseph Smith. This will definitely leave these Mormons flabbergasted. I suppose I could be more respectful but why bother? I can dismiss their beliefs in a few seconds and undoubtedly they will all rush out of the cult.

 

Woah! They are disagreeing and throwing stuff back at me. I better type their response into Google and find a rebuttal.

 

Awwww.....now they are calling me out. All I did was walk in and insult their founder and their deeply held beliefs. Why are they so sensitive. Hehehehe, I got it. I will do a little passive-aggressive whinging about how mean and hateful they are and ask if that is what all Mormons are like. This will deeply shame them. I will talk about my nice Mormon friend and they will realize they are not living up to their beliefs and then in their shame they will leave me alone. I am an emotional Machiavelli. They will never see that I am actually trying to manipulate them. I coded my words so it just sounds like I am making an observation about Mormons. My pretended ignorance will fool them and they will shape up thinking I will then not think all Mormons are mean. I'm a genius! I am sure this tactic has never been used before in messageboard history and is not a hackneyed tool of pathetic losers throughout the web.

 

Wait, what if it was too subtle?

 

That was mean spirited at the very least...is common in your faith?

 

Hahahah, there we go. Perfect burn.

 

 

Again just pick something specific and get your kickers out of a knot. 

 

I am not about to engage further with such banter. If you don't like my approach, maybe take your advise to me "please go away''.

 

Also, it is knickers not kickers. A more specific barb would be to use garments instead.

 

No, I would rather drive you away then leave myself. Just a personal preference.

[Freedom]

 

Thanks Don for your response, appreciated. 

 

The first three presidents of the Mormon Church, JS. BY and JT all believed the KHP's were real. They were obviously all capable of being deceived....but the fact that JS proceeded to translate all the information from one tiny kinda similar character is inconceivable.   Whether JS was deceived or not seems irrelevant to me.  Fact is he was deceived, begs the question what else was he deceived about. 

 

I find it interesting  that in the official "History of the Church", B.H. Roberts, discounted the confession of the hoaxters, because they didn't admit the hoax until much later.   The implication is that Roberts defended the plates and JS's interpretation of them even when the hoaxters admitted the truth about them. Science as we now know proved Roberts should have listened to the hoaxsters. I will bet the hoaxsters described in detail how they fabricated the plates...which science also proves.

 

The fact that JS translated a portion of those p fake plates...show deception and dishonesty. 

 

You are presenting an impossible standard and a logical fallacy. By your standard, no prophet of God would ever be tricked in any way by anyone. Apparently you did not hear of a certain quorum who were tricked by a fellow named Judas. Yes, people tried to trick Joseph Smith, and he fell for it a few times. Joseph took people at their word and if their intent was malicious, he got taken in by them. I could ask this of you, if you have been tricked at some point in your life, is this proof that everything you now know is a lie? How do we know that all your religious beliefs are not a fraud because you have the potential to be tricked? Do you see how preposterous your position is? 

[Tacenda]

You are presenting an impossible standard and a logical fallacy. By your standard, no prophet of God would ever be tricked in any way by anyone. Apparently you did not hear of a certain quorum who were tricked by a fellow named Judas. Yes, peopole tried to trick Joseph Smith, and he fell for it a few times. Joseph took people at their word and if their intent was malicious, he got taken in by them. I could ask this of you, if you have been tricked at some point in your life, is this proof that everything you now know is a lie? How do we know that all your religious beliefs are not a fraud because you have the potential to be tricked? Do you see how preposterous your position is?

Add to that, Mark Hoffman tricking another prophet, GBH.

[The Nehor]

Add to that, Mark Hoffman tricking another prophet, GBH.

 

I am not convinced President Hinckley was tricked. He bought the artifacts and submitted them to authorities for testing. Even when he got back a guarded "authentic" from experts he made it clear that he was not certain either way about their authenticity.

[Freedom]

Add to that, Mark Hoffman tricking another prophet, GBH.

Add to that Mark Hoffman tricking renown scholars. Of course, the church's aggressive labour to acquire and investigate his documents proved to be his undoing.