Book Of Mormon---Fact Or Fiction

[CCRW]

Actually, his highlighted text in the OP states that the Church switched position 10 years ago, even though it was a single apostle and not the Church.  That's false on many levels, but if we want to get calendarically correct, last time I checked, 1981 was still 1981.    Welcome to 2015.

 

ah the old single apostle/fallible option ... apologetics are so crazy sometimes ... maybe things would turn out just fine if "the Church" was enabled by the members to be just as fallible as its GA's are allowed to be.  And heaven forbit the GA's would lead the way, crack that pride and admit error (let alone consider an apology).  Well, enough from me on this one

[CCRW]

 

Hey CCRW,  here is some incredible info on the kinderhook plates imo. Some fascinating insights.

 

Debunking FairMormon - Letter to a CES Director ...

cesletter.com/debunking-fairmormon/kinderhook-plates.html

•  

 

 

 

Jackson, please answer my first questions to you.  Everyone here knows about the CES letter, possibly before you ever did.

[Freedom]

 

Hey CCRW,  here is some incredible info on the kinderhook plates imo. Some fascinating insights.

 

Debunking FairMormon - Letter to a CES Director ...

cesletter.com/debunking-fairmormon/kinderhook-plates.html

•  

 

 

Fascinating insights or poorly contrives straw man arguments. 

[Sevenbak]

ah the old single apostle/fallible option ... apologetics are so crazy sometimes ... maybe things would turn out just fine if "the Church" was enabled by the members to be just as fallible as its GA's are allowed to be.  And heaven forbit the GA's would lead the way, crack that pride and admit error (let alone consider an apology).  Well, enough from me on this one

You might want to learn a bit more about official teachings and doctrines of the church, before you continue.  

 

You can research the Law of Witnesses for starters.   Just sayin'...

[jackson20]

J

And I say now say that in spite of all that might be arrayed against the Prophet Joseph Smith, there is still no way to explain how he did what he did in bringing forth the Book of Mormon without including the miraculous power of God in the equation. As they say, "the proof is in the pudding," And I solemnly testify that one day all the world will come to realize the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is one of the greatest miracles in all of sacred history. And one day all will the world will realize God really does choose the weak things of the world to confound the haughty and worldly-wise.

 

Yes there is ---it's called plagiarism in the BOM.....don't worry Bobbie we will explore that later. As they say " the proof is in the puddin' "

 

Well Bobbie I solemnly testify that JS was fraudulent with his kinderhook plate fiasco. Although no testimony is necessary when so much proof is in the puddin' Your church held firm to it's belief in the kinder hook plates until 1981.  NOT one prophet during that 140 years period had the Descernment to know  otherwise.

Kind of makes one wonder what else they didn't descern.

[Freedom]

Yes there is ---it's called plagiarism in the BOM.....don't worry Bobbie we will explore that later. As they say " the proof is in the puddin' "

 

Well Bobbie I solemnly testify that JS was fraudulent with his kinderhook plate fiasco. Although no testimony is necessary when so much proof is in the puddin' Your church held firm to it's belief in the kinder hook plates until 1981.  NOT one prophet during that 140 years period had the Descernment to know  otherwise.

Kind of makes one wonder what else they didn't descern.

And why would they need to discern anything? What does some fake plates that Joseph tried to translate have to do with their role as a prophet? Why is it more important that they be inspired to verify historical events than to be inspired to find a cure for cancer or mental illness? What about solving murders or preventing natural disasters? You have a strange sense of what God thinks is important. If God does not deem it necessary to cure the common cure, I don't think he is too concerned about Josephs attempt to translate something. 

[jackson20]

More than enough evidence for the church of what? What reference do you have that the church recognizes these plates as evidence Joseph Smith was a fraud? You seem to lack some fundamental reasoning skills. Joseph got the plates, he tried to translate the plates, the plates were later discovered to be fake. So what? If you were given a book in English that was authored by Micheal Jackson which you subsequently try to translate into french, does proof that the book was not written by Michael Jackson prove that you are a fraud? No, it only proves that you tried to translate a book that was erroneously attributed to Michael Jackson. You, as was Joseph Smith, would be innocent of any wrong doing. 

 

More than enough evidence for the church of what? What reference do you have that the church recognizes these plates as evidence Joseph Smith was a fraud? You seem to lack some fundamental reasoning skills. Joseph got the plates, he tried to translate the plates, the plates were later discovered to be fake. So what? If you were given a book in English that was authored by Micheal Jackson which you subsequently try to translate into french, does proof that the book was not written by Michael Jackson prove that you are a fraud? No, it only proves that you tried to translate a book that was erroneously attributed to Michael Jackson. You, as was Joseph Smith, would be innocent of any wrong doing. 

 

You can't be serious!

I think a dose of common sense is order.

Yes the plates were discovered to be fake 140 years later.....the church ADMITS this....and you say so what?   So it's ok that NONE of your prophets could DESCERN the authenticity of these plates. Are you unaware of the claims JS made.....As far as JS trying to translate them....go learn your history before making such statements. 

[Freedom]

You can't be serious!

I think a dose of common sense is order.

Yes the plates were discovered to be fake 140 years later.....the church ADMITS this....and you say so what?   So it's ok that NONE of your prophets could DESCERN the authenticity of these plates. Are you unaware of the claims JS made.....As far as JS trying to translate them....go learn your history before making such statements. 

Wow, you are an arrogant little man aren't you. Please tell me why they would have to discern this? What do these plates have to do with their role as a prophet? Did these plates hold any bearing on the restored gospel? Why would discerning the veracity of these plates be more important than curing cancer? 

 

I assure you, I know more about my church history then you can ever imagine. Judging from your methodology, I suspect I have spent more time studying church history then you have spent engaging in any type of academic study. 

[CCRW]

From Don’s paper:

 

“A Problem comes here, when one of the men who dug up the plates, Wilber Fugate, writes a letter to James T. Cobb, step-son of Brigham Young, who had become alienated from the church, in 1879. He says, “I received your letter in regard to those plates, and will say answer they are a humbug, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitten, and myself. “

 

Seems the gig should have be up in 1879??

[jackson20]

Wow, you are an arrogant little man aren't you. Please tell me why they would have to discern this? What do these plates have to do with their role as a prophet? Did these plates hold any bearing on the restored gospel? Why would discerning the veracity of these plates be more important than curing cancer? 

 

I assure you, I know more about my church history then you can ever imagine. Judging from your methodology, I suspect I have spent more time studying church history then you have spent engaging in any type of academic study. 

Plain and simple they attest to the credibility and character and abilities of JS. Fact is he translated a portion of the plates that were set up as a hoax....and that isn't significant.

Oh I don't know why Descernment would be so important for a prophet of God....hmmmm let's just take a guess------ Perhaps so the Church members aren't mislead or deceived.

[CCRW]

Hey jackson, are you planning on sticking around for awhile or simply poking the hornets nest and then running?

[Freedom]

Plain and simple they attest to the credibility and character and abilities of JS. Fact is he translated a portion of the plates that were set up as a hoax....and that isn't significant.

Oh I don't know why Descernment would be so important for a prophet of God....hmmmm let's just take a guess------ Perhaps so the Church members aren't mislead or deceived.

How is his credibility and character in question? He got the plates and he tried to translated them, then he abandoned them. 

In what way were the church members ever deceived by these plates? They hold no part of our theological heritage. Please answer my other questions. 

[mfbukowski]

Totally agree. Totally confused premises.

Facts are not facts,and fiction is not lies.

Obviously neither is the bible factual in all respects.

I would bring up all my usual arguments, but this is waste of time.

Unless you at least understand the position that "there are no facts, only interpretations", there is nothing here to discuss.

You may disagree with that view, fine, but to not even know that such a idea exists makes even the fundamentals of the debate too time consuming to even take on.

I would suggest that the op google that phrase to at least understand that there are many theories of what truth is.

[Sevenbak]

Wow, you are an arrogant little man aren't you. Please tell me why they would have to discern this? What do these plates have to do with their role as a prophet? Did these plates hold any bearing on the restored gospel? Why would discerning the veracity of these plates be more important than curing cancer? 

 

I assure you, I know more about my church history then you can ever imagine. Judging from your methodology, I suspect I have spent more time studying church history then you have spent engaging in any type of academic study. 

 

Speaking of arrogance...

 

 

“He called me by name and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me,"  “[He told me] God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.”

 

 

This phrase has always fascinated me, what Moroni said to Joseph on that first night he had the visions.  What a statement.  Can you imagine such a unknown, uneducated, backwoods farm boy having the audacity to claim that everyone across the globe would judge him and know who he was.

At least his prophetic utterance is showing up here in this thread.  Of course, it does in many as they come here hawking their used and worn out wares.

[carbon dioxide]

I thought I had heard Don (super nice guy) had come up with some fairly revolutionary information on this.  In reading his paper just now, I'm a bit disapointed.

 

The ouch was jackson stating the church believed them authentic for many years ... he was called on it, and it appears he was correct.

I was not necessarily calling him on it.  I just was not aware of it. 

[jackson20]

Hey jackson, are you planning on sticking around for awhile or simply poking the hornets nest and then running?

LOL I have to think you are are a nice person CCRW....awesome comment about poking the hornets nest and then running.   Not sure why you would think that. I am off for holidays in a week though lol. Not sure what FREEDOM will do without me to insult. 

[mfbukowski]

This guy needs to read some biblical scholarship. No exodus,few if any of the books can be shown to have been written by the alleged authors, the possibilty that Jesus never existed, that all the Protestant religions were founded by many with immoral pasts, you want facts?

Them's the facts.

[carbon dioxide]

Yes there is ---it's called plagiarism in the BOM.....don't worry Bobbie we will explore that later. As they say " the proof is in the puddin' "

 

Well Bobbie I solemnly testify that JS was fraudulent with his kinderhook plate fiasco. Although no testimony is necessary when so much proof is in the puddin' Your church held firm to it's belief in the kinder hook plates until 1981.  NOT one prophet during that 140 years period had the Descernment to know  otherwise.

Kind of makes one wonder what else they didn't descern.

I would not go that far. 

 

1.  Where is the translation of the plates.  All we have is a claim that Joseph translated the plates. 

 

2. The Church for the most part has ignored the plates during that time.  There was no need for any prophet to address an issue that simply was not important. 

 

3.  My understanding is that Wilbur Fugate did not come out and claim these plates were a fraud until 1878.   So he sat on this information for about 35 years?  Why would he sit on something for so long if he had the proof Joseph Smith was a fraud?  My spidey sense is that he had no proof so he waited until most if not all the people who would have known were dead.  It is hard for dead people to address a false accusation. 

[jackson20]

How is his credibility and character in question? He got the plates and he tried to translated them, then he abandoned them. 

In what way were the church members ever deceived by these plates? They hold no part of our theological heritage. Please answer my other questions. 

Dude he did not TRY to translate them...He DID translate a portion...please get your facts and history in order. He did NOT abandon them...frankly he would have continued his  fraudulant translation if he hadn't died a month later. 

[thesometimesaint]

 

First off I want to make clear that my intention is not to bash LDS. If at times I come across as over-zealous---my apologies ahead of time. I am NOT anti-LDS.  I am anti-deception and a truth seeker. My Truth comes from revelation in the Bible---. 

 

Here is just a snippet of a comment I received the other day.... from someone on this site,  from someone I actually find interesting and have a degree of admiration.

Here is the comment:

 

" Because you're unprepared to receive it, you're gagging and choking on the strong spiritual meat of the gospel in fulfillment of Paul's warning that if the mysteries of the gospel are served to the unprepared they will, as it were, spit them out of their mouths and tell all who will hear that the deeper things of God are evil." 

 

Yes, I am left gagging and choking  when I do historical research using LDS own historical recordings.  And Yes I am not willing to gloss over such findings as if they are irrelevant.

 

Below are facts that I can not just brush aside and pretend they have not importance in revealing the character of JS. 

 

"Here is a simple example of how Joseph Smith was a fraud. You can read this in the official Mormon History, but few Mormons ever bother to read it. Some farmers in Kinderhook devised a hoax in 1843 and made up some copper plates which they claimed contained ancient writings. They planted them in an Indian burial mound and later dug them up again. When Smith saw the plates, he immediately "translated" part of them, which (he claimed in his diary) identified the writings as from "a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh...". Here is the exact quote from the Documentary History of the Church:

"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters."

"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth. "

For many years, the church claimed that these plates were authentic ancient writings, in spite of the fact that the farmers later admitted the hoax - evidently the fact that Smith had translated part of them made it too embarrassing to accept the hoax. After resorting to more and more "implausible" and "desperate" arguments, the church flip-flopped about 10 years ago, now ADMITS that the plates are PHONY. The 1981 August Ensign has the statement where the church admits that the plates were a hoax. Of course, this leaves them with the embarrassing quote from Smith's diary.... In spite of the fact that this quote is confirmed by contemporary newspaper reports, they conclude that THIS has to be a false report (indeed, many supposed entries in Smith's diary are generally regarded as fraudulent -- something that church historians don't like to emphasize).

The essential problem here is not the Kinderhook plates themselves, of course. The problem is that since Smith is revealed as credulous or deceitful in cases where he CAN be checked, the Book of Mormon translation, where he cannot be checked, is rendered highly suspicious."

Is JS credible or deceptive?

 

 

 

Such love and understanding from you.    Now let me tell you what is wrong with your religion.

[CCRW]

LOL I have to think you are are a nice person CCRW....awesome comment about poking the hornets nest and then running.   Not sure why you would think that. I am off for holidays in a week though lol. Not sure what FREEDOM will do without me to insult. 

 

I would think that because I've asked you to share some information that would help me know where you are coming from.  It appears you are only interested in causing contention.  Dude, you are guest here mello out.

[carbon dioxide]

Dude he did not TRY to translate them...He DID translate a portion...please get your facts and history in order. He did NOT abandon them...frankly he would have continued his  fraudulant translation if he hadn't died a month later. 

Where is the translation.  William Clayton says this but is this not hearsay?  Perhaps Joseph gave an initial translation based on looking at them casually but as he looked into it he discovered there was nothing to translate.  If you believe Joseph was just a fraud and making things up as he went along, surely he could have busted out a bogus translation in a few hours.  So where is it?

 

(Keep in mind that no LDS person claims Joseph Smith was a great translator because he earned a phD and knew ancient languages like the back of his hand.  He translated the BOM by divine means as LDS would describe.  So he may have THOUGHT the characters meant this or that but does not mean that was the same process as with the Book of Mormon.  Perhaps you have some evidence that this "translated portion" came by divine means and not just his initial impression.) 

Edited April 19, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Garden Girl]

 

First off I want to make clear that my intention is not to bash LDS. If at times I come across as over-zealous---my apologies ahead of time. I am NOT anti-LDS.  I am anti-deception and a truth seeker. My Truth comes from revelation in the Bible---. 

 

 

 

I love the way a fairly new, critical poster comes on the board and the first sentence out of his/her mouth is that it is not their intention to bash LDS or tear down the Church, etc etc... I always say, okay, here it comes.  And so many think they have new information that we have not already been aware of and/or discussed numerous times right here on the Board...  In this case, Jackson follows right along... So... 

To Kennego's  ... I will add my

 

However, lest I be thought to be flip in this matter, let me make it clear that there have indeed been numerous discussions on the Kinderhook plates with numerous posters weighing in on the topic.... we are well aware of the information Jackson presents... most of us have studied it, come to our own conclusions, and have moved on...

 

GG

[jackson20]

I love the way a fairly new, critical poster comes on the board and the first sentence out of his/her mouth is that it is not their intention to bash LDS or tear down the Church, etc etc... I always say, okay, here it comes.  And so many think they have new information that we have not already been aware of and/or discussed numerous times right here on the Board...  In this case, Jackson follows right along... So... 

To Kennego's  ... I will add my

 

However, lest I be thought to be flip in this matter, let me make it clear that there have indeed been numerous discussions on the Kinderhook plates with numerous posters weighing in on the topic.... we are well aware of the information Jackson presents... most of us have studied it, come to our own conclusions, and have moved on...

I don't care how numerous any topic has been discussed...and that would be any topic.....sometimes a new thought by someone, a new idea can come forth....yet all knowing Garden Girl knows it all...wow then shows a jackass being BEATEN with a stick....NICE

[bluebell]

Dude he did not TRY to translate them...He DID translate a portion...please get your facts and history in order. He did NOT abandon them...frankly he would have continued his  fraudulant translation if he hadn't died a month later. 

 

First, this is relevant (again Jeff Lindsay-He makes it so easy to present info because it's all in one place and concise) on the issue of whether or not JS believed these plates to contain gospel truth or theological information-

 

In 2011, Don Bradley, a Mormon, uncovered evidence that Joseph Smith attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook plates that was similar to a character in the so-called Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar book that Joseph and/or his scribes made in an apparent effort to figure out the Book of Abraham translation on his own, before the translation was given through revelation. See A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page 'The Kinderhook Plates'." Perhaps there was initial interest and perhaps he took them seriously for a brief while, but then they were abandoned. I don't know if he concluded they were a fraud or not, but after that initial interest, they were apparently dropped."

 

Second, (again from Jeff Lindsay) on whether or not JS actually translated some of it-

 

"Critics point to an entry apparently made by Joseph Smith in the official History of the Church dated May 1843, which states that Joseph translated part of the Kinderhook plates and found them to be written by a descendant of Ham and of the Pharaoh of Egypt. However, this statement is actually from the journal of William Clayton. Clayton's journal entry was added to the serialized "History of Joseph Smith" printed in the Deseret News in Utah in 1856, long after the death of Joseph, though it was changed to be in the first person from Joseph's perspective: "I have translated..." instead of "President J. has translated...." It is well known, according to Kimball, "that the serialized 'History of Joseph Smith' consists largely of items from other persons' personal journals and other sources, collected during Joseph Smith's lifetime and continued after the Saints were in Utah, then edited and pieced together to form a history of the Prophet's life 'in his own words.'" Kimball notes that this poor practice was common in that century for biographers."

 

Joseph never states himself that he translated any of these plates, and he spent very little time and energy on them.  In this issue, i don't believe that can be ignored.