Book Of Mormon---Fact Or Fiction

[Avatar4321]

Did Joseph Smith identify them as ancient artifacts?  Or did he accept them as ancient artifacts because that's what he was told they were?

Seems to me you don't accept something as authentic if you send them a way to be authenticated.

But I'm old fashioned that way

[Avatar4321]

So Jackson, have you read the Book of Mormon? What parts did you like? Which parts did you dislike?

How about we use a thread started to discuss the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon to talk about the Book of Mormon rather than a hearsay statement about a translation of plates that were sent away to be authenticated with no translation existing?

[delphi77]

What I would like to know, is why there was no pursuit of these plates by Joseph or the Church? If indeed the Prophet believed they were ancient records why didn't he try to acquire them? It doesn't make sense. If Joseph's account of the BoM was a fraud, and suddenly some guys started pulling brass plates out of the ground, you'd think he would have jumped at the chance to further his fraud. It does not appear he did so. Instead all we have is 19th century media hype and a few diary entries. The evidence that Joseph found these plates to be anything more than interesting is scant. Maybe Joseph did try to translate them. Obviously he didn't put a lot of effort into it, he had access to copies apparently, and yet he did nothing with them. 

 

Thankfully my faith is not in historians or scribes or my whole life would be a series of tragic let downs and broken hopes. 

 

By the way, were the bones they found part of the hoax? Anyone know, or were they legitimately part of some ancient burial?

[delphi77]

By the way, as an interesting Google search paradox I was led to this thread with a search for "average publishing royalties". Google, you never cease to amaze me.

[jackson20]

What do the kinderhook plates have to do with anything. How does not translating a bunch of phoney plates and making absolutely no effort to even keeping them in the churches possession change the fact that the Book of Mormon is true?

 

Joseph Smith translated just enough of the KHP's to give people an idea of the source and story behind them.  Too many accounts indicate Smith had an interest in the plates and that he desired to translate them. And yet you ask "what do the KHP's have to do with anything???

The first three presidents of the Mormon Church, JS, BY, JT, all believed the Kinderhook plates were real. Not one of the first three prophets of the church could tell these plates were forgeries. They were obviosuly capable of being deceived, and JS clearly revealed himself to be incapable of translating with the divine power of God. The KHP's are just one of many cases that show the deceptive efforts of Joseph Smith.

[JLHPROF]

The KHP's are just one of many cases that show the deceptive efforts of Joseph Smith.

 

 

I don't believe this to be true, but so what if it was?

It doesn't change the fact that the fruits are good.  The gospel is true.  The priesthood has power.  The ordinances have power.  The fruits of the restored gospel are from God, even if you were right about Joseph deceiving (which I don't believe you are).

 

The gospel doesn't rest on Joseph's honesty, although I believe he was completely honest.  The gospel rests on the truth contained in his teachings and practices, which has been proven valid to my satisfaction by the observable effects of those teachings and practices.

 

"If Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Mormon as a work of ancient origin, then I would move heaven and earth to meet the "real" nineteenth-century author."  - Elder Holland

 

The gospel is true, regardless of its source.

[jackson20]

I don't believe this to be true, but so what if it was?

It doesn't change the fact that the fruits are good.  The gospel is true.  The priesthood has power.  The ordinances have power.  The fruits of the restored gospel are from God, even if you were right about Joseph deceiving (which I don't believe you are).

 

The gospel doesn't rest on Joseph's honesty, although I believe he was completely honest.  The gospel rests on the truth contained in his teachings and practices, which has been proven valid to my satisfaction by the observable effects of those teachings and practices.

 

When you say " I don't believe this to be true. I believe JS was completely honest." It appears you are deciding purely on faith and completely disregarding/ignoring Historic documentations. In this thread I'm really not talking about issues of faith. Faith is believing in something that cannot be proven, like the resurrection or miracles. In the care of early LDS history, however there is so much historical documentation readily available that faith doesn't really enter into the issues. I don't need to depend on faith to understand these specific LDS problems any more that I need faith to know that GW was the first president. These issues can be examined from historical perspective and the evidence showing Joseph to be a fraud is overwhelming.

 

The LDS church depends enormously on the credibility of their prophets, most especially JS, precisely because of the claims they make about these men. So I understand that you don't want to believe that JS was a fraud. I get that.....even though there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary .

 

Do not use this board for massive and unreferenced cut & paste. It has been removed.

[thesometimesaint]

No we don't depend on the credibility of prophets. We depend on the credibility of God.

[Mormonmaniac]

When you say " I don't believe this to be true. I believe JS was completely honest." It appears you are deciding purely on faith and completely disregarding/ignoring Historic documentations. In this thread I'm really not talking about issues of faith. Faith is believing in something that cannot be proven, like the resurrection or miracles. In the care of early LDS history, however there is so much historical documentation readily available that faith doesn't really enter into the issues. I don't need to depend on faith to understand these specific LDS problems any more that I need faith to know that GW was the first president. These issues can be examined from historical perspective and the evidence showing Joseph to be a fraud is overwhelming.

 

The LDS church depends enormously on the credibility of their prophets, most especially JS, precisely because of the claims they make about these men. So I understand that you don't want to believe that JS was a fraud. I get that.....even though there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary .

 

Do not use this board for massive and unreferenced cut & paste. It has been removed.

Overwhelming evidence eh? Can I get a great big CFR here?

[DonBradley]

.

I've read parts of it and I'm aware of the main arguments, but I do need to take some time when I have it to read the entire presentation. I'm curious what others think about Joseph using the Egyptian Grammar? Doesn't that open up a Pandora's Box of new problems with the BoA?

 

Omni,

 

The point of my analysis was to explain how Joseph Smith derived the content he reportedly translated from the Kinderhook plates, not to solve the 'problem' created by his reported translation of fake plates. This explanation may have implications for Book of Abraham-related debates over the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL). But I think it would be easy to overstate those implications.

 

Joseph Smith's use of the GAEL to translate Egyptian isn't unique to the Kinderhook plates episode. He quotes the GAEL to provide an Egyptian translation in his letter, later that year, to James Arlington Bennett. And the previous year he had made use of it in interpreting Facsimile 2.

 

So, while Joseph's use of the GAEL to translate from the Kinderhook plates certainly factors into how we should interpret his understanding of the GAEL, it doesn't actually add anything we couldn't gather from other sources; it merely reinforces what we see elsewhere--that Joseph saw the GAEL as a potentially valid translation tool.

 

But, back to my earlier point, if Joseph's use of the GAEL to translate the Kinderhook plates complicates our understanding of the GAEL, so be it. The point of historical interpretation is to find out what actually happened in the past. And if what happened in the past differs from what we've thought happened, this gives us an excellent opportunity to learn something new. And if--as I do--one holds Joseph Smith to be a prophet of God, then such opportunities to grow in understanding about Joseph Smith's prophetic work are also opportunities to grow in understanding about how God works with human beings, like us.

 

Don

[DonBradley]

 

Joseph Smith translated just enough of the KHP's to give people an idea of the source and story behind them.  Too many accounts indicate Smith had an interest in the plates and that he desired to translate them. And yet you ask "what do the KHP's have to do with anything???

The first three presidents of the Mormon Church, JS, BY, JT, all believed the Kinderhook plates were real. Not one of the first three prophets of the church could tell these plates were forgeries. They were obviosuly capable of being deceived, and JS clearly revealed himself to be incapable of translating with the divine power of God. The KHP's are just one of many cases that show the deceptive efforts of Joseph Smith.

 

 

???

 

Jackson, what you've shown is not that Joseph Smith was deceptive, but that Joseph Smith could be deceived by others. He wasn't the one who forged the Kinderhook plates. And if a character on them happened to match a character in what he believed was potentially useful as a translation lexicon, he was well within his rights to think that he had "translated" the KP character using that lexicon.

 

Don

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Might I offer a theme song for this tread?

[bluebell]

What I would like to know, is why there was no pursuit of these plates by Joseph or the Church? If indeed the Prophet believed they were ancient records why didn't he try to acquire them? It doesn't make sense. If Joseph's account of the BoM was a fraud, and suddenly some guys started pulling brass plates out of the ground, you'd think he would have jumped at the chance to further his fraud. It does not appear he did so. Instead all we have is 19th century media hype and a few diary entries. The evidence that Joseph found these plates to be anything more than interesting is scant. Maybe Joseph did try to translate them. Obviously he didn't put a lot of effort into it, he had access to copies apparently, and yet he did nothing with them. 

 

Thankfully my faith is not in historians or scribes or my whole life would be a series of tragic let downs and broken hopes. 

 

By the way, were the bones they found part of the hoax? Anyone know, or were they legitimately part of some ancient burial?

 

I think for most reasonable people, this is the real crux of the issue.  Did JS (even if he did attempt to translate them), believe they were of God and contained spiritual truth?  His actions seem to indicate that no, he did not.  

 

He never said they were a hoax, but he never treated them like any of the ancient records that he claimed were from God either.  That seems relevant to the issue.

[The Nehor]

Joseph Smith translated just enough of the KHP's to give people an idea of the source and story behind them.  Too many accounts indicate Smith had an interest in the plates and that he desired to translate them. And yet you ask "what do the KHP's have to do with anything???

The first three presidents of the Mormon Church, JS, BY, JT, all believed the Kinderhook plates were real. Not one of the first three prophets of the church could tell these plates were forgeries. They were obviosuly capable of being deceived, and JS clearly revealed himself to be incapable of translating with the divine power of God. The KHP's are just one of many cases that show the deceptive efforts of Joseph Smith.

Do you actually have independent thoughts or are you just a facilitator sending us pieces of the Internet at random?

[ERayR]

What do the kinderhook plates have to do with anything. How does not translating a bunch of phoney plates and making absolutely no effort to even keeping them in the churches possession change the fact that the Book of Mormon is true?

Is the Holy Spirit a liar simply because someone tried to sell Joseph Smith fraudulent plates and he didn't by them? Meanwhile the Egyptian papyrus was bought at a time the church was young and broke.

If you want to know the Book of Mormon is true, read it and ask the Lord. You will only learn spiritual things by the Spirit.

 

Too easy.  Well the asking part anyway.  Listening for an answer is some what more difficult.  The answer keeps getting tangled in my preconceived ideas.

[The Nehor]

Too easy.  Well the asking part anyway.  Listening for an answer is some what more difficult.  The answer keeps getting tangled in my preconceived ideas.

I think you give too much credit. I see no reason to believe they conceived any ideas.

[ERayR]

 

. The KHP's are just one of many cases that show the deceptive efforts of Joseph Smith.

 

 

Only from the point of view of the deceptive and false information you have chosen to accept on faith.

[jackson20]

 

???

 

Jackson, what you've shown is not that Joseph Smith was deceptive, but that Joseph Smith could be deceived by others. He wasn't the one who forged the Kinderhook plates. And if a character on them happened to match a character in what he believed was potentially useful as a translation lexicon, he was well within his rights to think that he had "translated" the KP character using that lexicon.

 

Don

 

Thanks Don for your response, appreciated. 

 

The first three presidents of the Mormon Church, JS. BY and JT all believed the KHP's were real. They were obviously all capable of being deceived....but the fact that JS proceeded to translate all the information from one tiny kinda similar character is inconceivable.   Whether JS was deceived or not seems irrelevant to me.  Fact is he was deceived, begs the question what else was he deceived about. 

 

I find it interesting  that in the official "History of the Church", B.H. Roberts, discounted the confession of the hoaxters, because they didn't admit the hoax until much later.   The implication is that Roberts defended the plates and JS's interpretation of them even when the hoaxters admitted the truth about them. Science as we now know proved Roberts should have listened to the hoaxsters. I will bet the hoaxsters described in detail how they fabricated the plates...which science also proves.

 

The fact that JS translated a portion of those p fake plates...show deception and dishonesty. 

[jackson20]

Only from the point of view of the deceptive and false information you have chosen to accept on faith.

If you are going to make a statement like this , at least qualify it with what deceptive and false information (in your mind) I have chosen to accept. Be specific please and thanks

[DonBradley]

 

Thanks Don for your response, appreciated. 

 

The first three presidents of the Mormon Church, JS. BY and JT all believed the KHP's were real. They were obviously all capable of being deceived....but the fact that JS proceeded to translate all the information from one tiny kinda similar character is inconceivable.   Whether JS was deceived or not seems irrelevant to me.  Fact is he was deceived, begs the question what else was he deceived about. 

 

...

 

The fact that JS translated a portion of those p fake plates...show deception and dishonesty. 

 

 

Jackson,

 

A couple things...

 

First, did you look at my KP translation explanation? It accounts for how JS could have believed he got that much text from a single character. Far from "inconceivable," it's perfectly explicable.

 

Second, you're still conflating being deceived by others with purposely deceiving others. If JS believed the Kinderhook plates were genuine and believed he had a translation tool, he could easily, if mistakenly, believe he was doing genuine translation from the KPs. In fact, there are lots of cases where sincere people have believed they translated something from records that turned out to be fake.

 

Lastly, if anything, the fact that Joseph Smith was fooled by the Kinderhook plates weighs in favor of his sincerity. If he had faked his own claim to find ancient metal plates, how likely would he be to fall for someone else's claim to have done the same? Isn't it the liars who are most on the look out for other people to be lying to them? 

 

Joseph Smith being deceived by others and Joseph Smith deceiving others are not positively correlated. And if anything, they are negatively correlated: a Joseph Smith who would trust others' claims to find metal plates is more likely to have been honest about finding plates himself.

 

Don

 

Don

[The Nehor]

If you are going to make a statement like this , at least qualify it with what deceptive and false information (in your mind) I have chosen to accept. Be specific please and thanks

Virtually everything you have written and copied. I would be specific but that would require effort which your lazy slapdash posting does not deserve when I could do something more productive like go to college to become a pimp, teach myself to play the banjo, or stare at a wall and attempt to develop X-ray vision.

Please go away you incredibly boring hack.

[Calm]

By the way, as an interesting Google search paradox I was led to this thread with a search for "average publishing royalties". Google, you never cease to amaze me.

Wow, that is weird.

[Sevenbak]

...but the fact that JS proceeded to translate all the information from one tiny kinda similar character is inconceivable.

Therein is your problem, at least one of them. I alluded to this earlier but I don't think you followed up. You need to research the translation of the 24 gold plates from the Jaredite record and what Moroni was able to produce from it. Then research the Adamic language, Egyptian symbols and why Joseph would've assumed these plates were Jaredite in origin. When you're done your homework, come back and then we can hopefully have a reasonable discussion.

[Calm]

Virtually everything you have written and copied. I would be specific but that would require effort which your lazy slapdash posting does not deserve when I could do something more productive like go to college to become a pimp, teach myself to play the banjo, or stare at a wall and attempt to develop X-ray vision.

Please go away you incredibly boring hack.

Taking one for the team again, Nehor?

[The Nehor]

Taking one for the team again, Nehor?

I am the hero the board needs, not the one it deserves.