How Connected?

[JLHPROF]

I wanted to get everyone's take on just how connected/inseparable you consider the Church and the Priesthood.

I don't think anyone here would argue they are the same thing, most recognize that they are two separate organizations.  But to what degree are they inseparable in my esteemed board colleagues opinions?

 

Additionally, the "Kingdom".  This has frequently be equated with the Church but how distinct is the Kingdom, being that Joseph established a completely separate council

 

So:

Church (ecclesiastical authority)

Kingdom (political authority)

Priesthood (eternal authority)

How interconnected are they?  How inseparable?  How distinct?  How independent of each other?

 

 

From a couple of other threads and a couple of things to consider:

 

The Church is an auxiliary to the Priesthood, and is how the Priesthood organizes in order to administer saving ordinances. It is clearly demonstrable that the Priesthood is "superior" to the Church -- just ask yourself what came first. Joseph held the Priesthood long before the founding of the Church. In fact, Joseph held the Keys to the Priesthood long before the Church was organized.

 

First Prophets are ecclesiastical and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is temporary. The church and its ecclesiastical prophets are not the be all, end all.  Being kind of a necessary lesser thing as it were.

 

Second the Prophet holds the keys of the priesthood for the church (i.e. all ordinances).

So suppose an individual totally disagreed with a given Prophet, but had total faith in the need for all the ordinances (I'm speaking of the temple as well as the outward Aaronic/church ordinances), then they must stick with the prophet so as to stick with access to the power of the keys.

 

I am confident enough that I have based my eternal destiny in the promises of the Restored Gospel.

I also teach and encourage these beliefs to my children and grandchildren, risking, as the OP might say, their eternal future as well on the soundness of the Church. 

 

 

Also consider:

"Last Monday morning, certain men came to me and said: 'Brother Joseph, Hyrum is no prophet-he can't lead the church-you must lead the church! If you resign all things will go wrong; and you must not resign; if you do the church will be scattered.'

I felt to make them curious and said-'have we not learned in the scriptures about a Priesthood in the Order of Melchizedek which includes the offices of Prophet, Priest, and King?'
I never said I was going to resign-I simply proclaimed that I had bequeathed to my brother Hyrum the prophetic power and authority that rightly belongs to the Patriarchal Office which he holds by his birthright. Hyrum now stands as head Prophet to the church. And I in turn when the Temple is completed will be advanced in the Priesthood from the office of a Prophet to that of Priest and then to the office of King-not to the kingdoms of this earth, but to the kingdom of the most high God"

 

 

'I do not care who leads the church, even though it were Ann Lee; but one thing I must know, and that is what God says about it. I have the keys and the means of obtaining the mind of God on the subject.

I know there are those in our midst who will seek the lives of the Twelve as they did the lives of Joseph and Hyrum. We shall ordain others and give the fullness of the priesthood, so that if we are killed the fullness of the priesthood may remain.

Joseph conferred upon our heads all the keys and powers belonging to the Apostleship which he himself held before he was taken away, and no man or set of men can get between Joseph and the Twelve in this world or in the world to come.  - Brigham Young

 

[thesometimesaint]

They operate hand in glove. Priesthood is the power by which the Church operates here on earth and in Heaven.

[JLHPROF]

They operate hand in glove. Priesthood is the power by which the Church operates here on earth and in Heaven.

 

I don't think the Church as we know it here will exist in heaven.  The Heavenly Church is an entirely different organization.

[CCRW]

I don't think the Church as we know it here will exist in heaven.  The Heavenly Church is an entirely different organization.

Nor in the New Jerusalem.  The ultimate Church is "The General Assembly and Church of the First Born"

 

JS was being promoted from Prophet to King and Priest, leaving the duties of Prophet to his brother.

 

King (think King Benjamin) is the position of authority over the governmental aspect.

Priest is the authority on the theology side of the fence.

 

The greatest/highest promise given to mankind on this earth is to ordained a King and a Priest to rule and reign in the (a) house of Israel.

 

Quit worshiping the Church ... look for what it was intended to lead one to.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't think the Church as we know it here will exist in heaven.  The Heavenly Church is an entirely different organization.

 

No doubt some structures within the Church will of necessity change when in Heaven. IE; Conversion while in mortality won't be a factor once we're immortal.

[The Nehor]

The Priesthood has existed without a church but the church cannot exist as God's church without the priesthood.

[why me]

They are very connected but not inclusive. For example, what would happen if 60 percent of the boys and men declined the priesthood? I think that there would be a tragedy and yet, it would not signal a downfall of the church. But many of the callings and ordinances would need to be curtailed. Or the responsibility would fall on fewer people, creating pressure on the priesthood holders. There is nothing in the rule book that boys and men need to accept the priesthood but the great majority do.

[CV75]

I wanted to get everyone's take on just how connected/inseparable you consider the Church and the Priesthood.

I don't think anyone here would argue they are the same thing, most recognize that they are two separate organizations.  But to what degree are they inseparable in my esteemed board colleagues opinions?

 

Additionally, the "Kingdom".  This has frequently be equated with the Church but how distinct is the Kingdom, being that Joseph established a completely separate council

Looking at these terms in their organizational sense:

 

They are inseparable in that in order to be viable (“true and living”), the Church organization (whether on earth as we have her today or in heaven) must be headed by Christ exercising His Priesthood. In order for His Priesthood to be viable, He must exercise it through a council, organization or general assembly in the pertinent sphere of operation (heaven, earth or both)—even God cannot operate alone and in a vacuum.

 

The Kingdom of God (whether on heaven or on earth, or both), is a Church with Christ at the head using priesthood authority both politically and ecclesiastically, depending on His direction to meet the conditions at hand.

[JLHPROF]

The Priesthood has existed without a church but the church cannot exist as God's church without the priesthood.

 

Thank you for including that qualifier.  As the Great Apostasy showed, the Church can absolutely exist without priesthood, but God's Church cannot.

 

How would we envision the priesthood to operate without or outside an earthly Church?  Would it be more like the Priesthood in Abraham's day?

Edited April 12, 2015 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

Thank you for including that qualifier.  As the Great Apostasy showed, the Church can absolutely exist without priesthood, but God's Church cannot.

 

How would we envision the priesthood to operate without or outside an earthly Church?  Would it be more like the Priesthood in Abraham's day?

I think Abraham 2:11 sums up the interconnectedness of priesthood and church in that “Priesthood” is “seed.” Priesthood is power, authority, etc. and seed is the organization of individuals by and perpetuating that Priesthood. The seed can be physical (as in families and wards) or spiritual (as in being reborn).

 

I think Abraham’s church was patriarchal in one sense (both biological and adoptive), but the involvement of Melchizedek provides for a broader, inter-familial Church in those times.

[Coreyb]

The Priesthood has existed without a church but the church cannot exist as God's church without the priesthood.

I think that it is quite obvious from the scriptures that a priest with legitimate authority and lineage can exist on earth without an organized and authorized religious community. I think Abrahams time period would be a good example, or Elijah, or Lehi, or John the Baptist. All these operated outside of the religious structure, though not necessarily in opposition to it. Perhaps Melchizedek had organized a church structure in Salem, yet Abram seemed to mostly do his own thing out on the plains, though he did pay tithing once. The problem with this is that it kind of bolsters the Fundamentalists theology of a secret priesthood lineage operating outside the church to preserve the higher priesthood principles.

[JLHPROF]

I think that it is quite obvious from the scriptures that a priest with legitimate authority and lineage can exist on earth without an organized and authorized religious community. I think Abrahams time period would be a good example, or Elijah, or Lehi, or John the Baptist. All these operated outside of the religious structure, though not necessarily in opposition to it. Perhaps Melchizedek had organized a church structure in Salem, yet Abram seemed to mostly do his own thing out on the plains, though he did pay tithing once. The problem with this is that it kind of bolsters the Fundamentalists theology of a secret priesthood lineage operating outside the church to preserve the higher priesthood principles.

 

Fundamentalists aside, a more interesting representation of this is Moses.

Moses received his priesthood from his father-in-law Jethro according to D&C 84:6.

 

Jethro was a Midianite, a descendant of Abraham and Keturah.  Moses was in exile with the Midianites for 40 years (marrying one of his wives there).

Exodus 2.

 

So Moses, the Israelites (descendants of Abraham and Sarah) make their exodus, receiving the Levitical priesthood and laws, settling in the promised land, rejecting the higher priesthood and, well, we are all familiar with their basic historical priesthood timeline.

 

But what of Jethro and his group of Midianites?  Did they lose priesthood by ordaining Moses?  Of course not.  They presumably carried priesthood after Moses went back to Egypt. 

Now, we know from the OT that the Midianites in general had issues - Numbers 31 God commands Israel to destroy them, and in Judges 6 Gideon goes to war with them.

 

But we always like ourselves to modern day Israel.  Is it even possible for a Jethro group to be outside the modern Church?

[Coreyb]

I think it is possible. Most orthodox Mormons already believe in at least four legitimate priests operating outside the church

[CV75]

But we always like ourselves to modern day Israel.  Is it even possible for a Jethro group to be outside the modern Church?

Oops--have to edit!

 

I don't think so. This is the dispensation of the fulness of times, so everything is gathered together in one. Prior dispensations may have easily co-existed or overlapped, but not this one. Jethro belonged to a Church (at least as in an assembly or holy organization), as did Abraham and Melchizedek, and it seems that each church existed in both patriarchal, governmental and ecclesiastical terms.

 

ETA: So, in earlier dispensations I think it was possible for patriarchal organizations to co-exist within eccelsiastical organizations and even political organizations (and vice-versa), and for dispensations to coexist and overlap. However, not today becaue of the nature of this dispensation.

 

Aside from the formal Church, other organizations are working according to the Light of Christ they have (there are two Churches only), but once they oppose the LDS Church, that is the end of their reach into God's kingdom (there are two Churches only). I think anyone can operate under the Light of Christ without the priesthood, but once they oppose the priesthood they have betrayed that light.

 

I hope my confusing post did not throw water on an interesting thread!

Edited April 12, 2015 by CV75

[The Nehor]

I think it is possible. Most orthodox Mormons already believe in at least four legitimate priests operating outside the church

There is always a Priesthood structure even if there is no church. The translated report to the leaders of their own dispensations or somewhere else up the chain. At some point they all meet up at Jesus.

[Nofear]

Our mortal earth is a temporary place. I tend to view the Church as an embassy of sorts for the larger Kingdom of Heaven. It authoritatively represents the designs and intents of the Kingdom of Heaven but it is not the same entity. It can and will be replaced according to need (e.g. apostolic church vs patriarchal organization).

 

Priesthood is (among other things) a marker for that authorized and legal representation of God's Kingdom. Priesthood exists beyond just our little mortal embassy (e.g. Angel Moroni, 3 Nephites). But, at no point will authorized agents act in discord or at odds with each other.