100,000 Missionaries By 2019 - Elder Holland

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

I recant my statement of being of any statement other than my opinion.

Now, the whole point of all my posts in this thread is to address the efforts of the Church to pump up the millennial young men/women to be an elite, prepared before the foundations, 11th hour force called of God to go forth, against the grain of an evil world and bring those ready for the Gospel to baptism in the Church (to the tune of all possible member youth to hit the 100k in 3 more years).

Scott and others have expressed their excitement in these events and I'm simply pointing out there is also a lot of causalities among the current 75k and whatever numbers might be maintained over time.  I'm suggesting that its an immoral organization that has no plan for these individuals.

Perhaps you can address this? 

"Pointing out" implies that you are merely drawing attention to something that is largely undisputed.

I don't agree.

CFR that "there is[sic] also a lot of causalities among the current 75k."

As for your hysterical claim "that its[sic] an immoral organization that has no plan for these individuals," I regard that as mere demagoguery, and utterly unworthy of my attention.
 

[salgare]

I did not suspect you could/would address the issue.

As to your only responses being constant calls for reference.

Russell:  Objection your honor

Board: you must answer the CFR

Salgare: I recall the statement your honor

Jury instruction: ignore Salgare's pointing out this uncomfortable truth for which he has not provided a reference. 

In the future, feel free to try and address the issue.  Of course CFR, for those cases you have no answer is good as always.

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by salgare

[Russell C McGregor]

2 hours ago, salgare said:

I did not suspect you could/would address the issue.

As to your only responses being constant calls for reference.

Russell:  Objection your honor

Board: you must answer the CFR

Salgare: I recall the statement your honor

Jury instruction: ignore Salgare's pointing out this uncomfortable truth for which he has not provided a reference. 

In the future, feel free to try and address the issue.  Of course CFR, for those cases you have no answer is good as always.

 

If you're going to argue from assertions of "fact," it is entirely reasonable to expect you to back up those assertions.

If you're just going to make up your own "facts" to suit your arguments, then we have every right to challenge them.

You call what you are doing "pointing out this uncomfortable truth."

That claim is false, and you know it.

You've asserted polemically useful claims without regard to whether they are true or not.

Stick with facts, and then there'll be something to talk about. Based as they are upon airy claims that you can't support, your arguments are moot.

[salgare]

Fact.  I'm sorry to the youth of our wards who's High Priests of our wards don't care, nor do your leaders up the line, that they are 100% behind you being the elite 11th hour Stripling warrior missionaries, but if you don't go, come home in shame or later apostatize you are out in the cold on your own.

It is shameful that they will do this to you, but that simply is the way it is.  You have no advocates in the Church.  I pray that you might in your families

Edited January 25, 2016 by salgare

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

Fiction.  I'm sorry to the youth of our wards who's High Priests of our wards don't care, nor do your leaders up the line, that they are 100% behind you being the elite 11th hour Stripling warrior missionaries, but if you don't go, come home in shame or later apostatize you are out in the cold on your own.

There. Fixed it for you.

Fortunately, your demagoguery is as clumsy as it is dishonest.

And it is certainly dishonest.

You're making assertions you cannot possibly support -- because they are false -- and then arguing from them as if they were established facts.

Do you love them because they are false, or do you only interested in whether you can convince others of them?

1 hour ago, salgare said:

It is shameful that they will do this to you, but that simply is the way it is.  You have no advocates in the Church.  I pray that you might in your families

No, it's the way it isn't.

And never was.

 

 

[salgare]

9 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

...

I'm sorry that you appear to be so naive in your answers as to indicate that you do not believe there are any youth whom choose not to go on missions, or whom come home early from missions (major depressions being one of the main causes of late), or whom fall away within five years.

Unfortunately there are many a young man and woman who suffer from these issues on a daily bases.  Your immorality  shows through having no more concern for these issues than does the organization that you defend with such childish retorts here.

Very sad.

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by salgare

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

Fact.  I'm sorry to the youth of our wards who's High Priests of our wards don't care, nor do your leaders up the line, that they are 100% behind you being the elite 11th hour Stripling warrior missionaries, but if you don't go, come home in shame or later apostatize you are out in the cold on your own.

It is shameful that they will do this to you, but that simply is the way it is.  You have no advocates in the Church.  I pray that you might in your families

This is what you previously wrote.

I disputed it. Because it is false.

I was, of course, disputing your nasty and unsupported accusation that the Church abandons young people in those situations.

Did you really not know that?

Evidently you didn't, because you responded with:

26 minutes ago, salgare said:

I'm sorry that you appear to be so naive in your answers as to indicate that you do not believe there are any youth whom choose not to go on missions, or whom come home early from missions (major depressions being one of the main causes of late), or whom fall away within five years.

Really?

I know, of course, that some choose not to go, others come home early, usually for medical reasons. And there are even some people, RM's and otherwise, who apostatise, at various times.

I never denied that. Of course.

Incidentally: CALL FOR REFERENCES  that "major depressions," whatever they may be, are "one of the main causes of late."

I anticipate that you can't support that assertion.

Probably because you made it up.

So you'll retract it -- and sulk about having it challenged.

I suggest you get over yourself. Soon.

26 minutes ago, salgare said:

Unfortunately there are many a young man and woman who suffer from these issues on a daily bases.  Your immorality  shows through having no more concern for these issues than does the organization that you defend with such childish retorts here.

Very sad.

So your definition of "immorality" means not agreeing with you about everything. Is that it?

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Russell C McGregor

[salgare]

4 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

So your definition of "immorality" means not agreeing with you about everything. Is that it?

Part of my definition of immortality is the way you treat people.  You have nothing but bitterness to offer.  I'm sorry for you about that. but I'm not interested.

[sjdawg]

On 3/4/2015 at 1:19 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by sjdawg
deleted as topic already discussed

[salgare]

Well I've questioned why the Church has no plan for our youth who do not stand up to the expectations put on them, from not going, coming home early or falling away after.

I've gotten no answers yet, seems my assumption is so, there is no plan and I maintain this is an immoral act for such an organization.

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by salgare

[Russell C McGregor]

5 hours ago, salgare said:

Well I've questioned why the Church has no plan for our youth who do not stand up to the expectations put on them, from not going, coming home early or falling away after.

I've gotten no answers yet, seems my assumption is so, there is no plan and I maintain this is an immoral act for such an organization.

You've "questioned why" you made that uninformed assumption?

I have my own ideas about that.

But here's the thing, Sal: before you ask why something is so, you must first establish that it is.

And you haven't.

This forum does not have any official standing as a church publication. What you do or don't see here does not represent what the Church is saying.

That conclusion is as baseless as most of them. Sorry

[Russell C McGregor]

7 hours ago, salgare said:

Fact.  I'm sorry to the youth of our wards who's High Priests of our wards don't care, nor do your leaders up the line, that they are 100% behind you being the elite 11th hour Stripling warrior missionaries, but if you don't go, come home in shame or later apostatize you are out in the cold on your own.

It is shameful that they will do this to you, but that simply is the way it is.  You have no advocates in the Church.  I pray that you might in your families

BTW, Sal: that first sentence only makes sense if you assume that "High Priests" are high muck-a-mucks. Which is a pardonable mistake to make, for someone who knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL about the Church of Jesus Christ.

But for those who, unlike your good self, are actually informed on the subject -- as in, they've been to Church any time in their adult life -- the high priests are not the inhabitants of a rarefied priestly caste; instead, they're about half of the men attending the local ward.

Like, well, me.

And not only that, they are the fathers, uncles and grandfathers of the very missionaries in question.

Like -- not to put too fine a point on it -- me.

IOW, you are accusing me, along with a whole lot of other people you know nothing about, of callous indifference to the wellbeing of our own children.

An accusation that is utterly false, completely uninformed, and apparently rather bigoted, too.

So given that you've been found out, you'll forgive me if I don't give your opinions a great deal of weight.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

5 hours ago, salgare said:

Part of my definition of immortality is the way you treat people.  You have nothing but bitterness to offer.  I'm sorry for you about that. but I'm not interested.

Hey, I'm not the one throwing malicious accusations at people I've never met. "Bitterness" indeed.

And I notice you have defaulted on the CFR that is before you.

Spiteful accusations -- and no facts to back them up. No wonder sjdawg and analytics gave you rep points.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Hey, I'm not the one throwing malicious accusations at people I've never met. "Bitterness" indeed.

And I notice you have defaulted on the CFR that is before you.

Spiteful accusations -- and no facts to back them up. No wonder sjdawg and analytics gave you rep points.

 

I came of age during the era when President Spencer W. Kimball gave his famous address, "When the World Will Be Converted." That's the one in which he said directly and unequivocally that every young man in the Church of Jesus Christ should serve a mission. It made quite a stir and had quite the aftermath. The number of missionaries at the time was only 17,500, compared to 75,000 today. There  has never been a time when the urging -- some would call it pressure -- to serve a mission was more intense. My best friend deeply resented it, though ultimately he did serve an honorable mission.

I have a beloved nephew who is my age. We grew up together. We were more like brothers or close cousins than uncle and nephew.

We were both active in the Church. When the time came, I went on a mission; he stayed home and married his girlfriend.

That was some 40 years ago. According to salgare's horror scenario, he should be a sorry derelict today, bearing a "scarlet letter," permanently scarred, shunned and despised by a church in which he once was a dedicated member.

In actuality, he and the girlfriend he married went on to raise a happy family and are contented grandparents today. He has remained active and accepted in the Church and has served for years as a bishop and a member of a stake presidency.

I too have remained active in the Church, but I've never been a bishop or in a stake presidency. My point is that there are a lot more variables in how a young man turns out than whether or not he goes on a mission.

Anecotal evidence? Of course. But it's more solid than anything salg has yet presented and, from my observations, far more typical than his nasty suppositions about the way the Church of Jesus Christ "treats people."

[thesometimesaint]

My experience is similar. No Mission, but married in the Temple, have served in a Bishopric(But not Bishop), and High Priest Group leadership. Have deeply enjoyed all my callings, and feeling it a pleasure to be of service.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

My experience is similar. No Mission, but married in the Temple, have served in a Bishopric(But not Bishop), and High Priest Group leadership. Have deeply enjoyed all my callings, and feeling it a pleasure to be of service.

Here again, no scarlet letter, no permanent scar.

Thank you, TSS.

 

[salgare]

Scott, you continue to focus on the success stories which is all well and good.  My question is focused on those that do not come out of this so cleanly.  Do you deny that they even exist?  Or is it you believe they do not exist in any numbers that warrant any concern from the Church and hence from the members?  Or is there some plan concerning these members of which I am unaware?

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, salgare said:

Scott, you continue to focus on the success stories which is all well and good.  My question is focused on those that do not come out of this so cleanly.  Do you deny that they even exist?  Or is it you believe they do not exist in any numbers that warrant any concern from the Church and hence from the members?  Or is there some plan concerning these members of which I am unaware?

I said the "success stories," from my observation, are typical. You, on the other hand, have presented nothing other than supposition regarding your doomsday scenario.

The Church, for as long as I can remember, has always been concerned about reaching out to and reclaiming lost souls. It doesn't succeed in every case; I don't think anyone or anything does. But there has been nothing I've seen from you to substantiate that the Church is being neglectful, or that encouraging more young men and young women to serve missions has been particularly harmful or "immoral." You've given us what Russell has characterized as "spiteful accusations -- and no facts to back them up." He was also correct in his observation that your accusation that the Church has "no plan in place" to rescue wandering individuals is pure demagoguery.

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Whenever claims about depression etc. among missionaries are made, they should be compared to similar populations, such as college kids who are generally the same age, also leaving home for the first time.

This is an older article but there are similar more recent ones out there.  I like this one because it addresses possible causes more than the recent ones I pulled up.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/mental/2002-05-22-college-depression.htm

"North America's college counseling centers report an increase in troubled students, according to psychologist Robert Gallagher of the University of Pittsburgh. His 2001 survey of counseling centers shows that 85% of colleges report an increase during the past five years in students with severe psychological problems."

[Calm]

We had four out of probably 8-10 missionaries return early in our ward, over the past few years.  I get the info as the bulletin person who puts the addresses up and a husband who is good friends with a large part of the ward (he is a very friendly and supportive man).  Two returned to the mission within a few months due to being helped to deal with the emotional issues that had intensified.  One was held as possibly returning for over a year, but the doctors have yet to figure out what the physical root of his pain is, so other options are now being explored so he can fulfill his desire to serve within his limitations.  One returned decided she wouldn't be able to handle the stress and after receiving treatment went to a small college not too far from home and is now, I believe, married in the temple.

Of the young men and women who chose not to go on a mission (includes my own child) there is significant outreach and support to stay active and involved with their extended age group and as far as I can tell (from the way the one who went on a mission was treated as compared to the one who didn't), there is little difference in treatment...at least in terms of invites to activities in and out of church as well as interest of leaders.  In fact, the nonmission child has recieved much more personalized care from leaders than the RM.

My husband volunteers weekly or more at the local bishop's storehouse.  A high percentage of volunteers there are young adults who are there as an alternative to going on missions.  Several are developmentally challenged and cannot function away from caregivers.  Others have chosen not to go on a mission at this time for other reasons.  Those leaders in charge of them and the other volunteers from what I have seen pretty much treat them with the same love and respect that the missionaries received, at times supplying greater amount of support and accomodation when needed.  There seems to be an relaxed closeness in the group among the different ages much like an extended family (comparing the two Christmas parties of my extended family and the storehouse celebration).

I know our bishop worked closely and extensively with all the inactive young adults who would accept his support, including helping one couple get married, find better jobs and education, etc.  I assume there are some failures, but he is a rather persistent and very likeable man so this ward has been successful overall from what I've seen and heard reported by youth and young adults as well as adults.  It is not perfect (we had a very difficult YWs situation due to a few girls and parents being rigid and arrogant, leaders were chosen that were very supportive to counteract that problem though I don't know the end result...will have to ask), but there is much attention and support being offered to everyone in the ward boundaries by ward members unless they have been asked not to contact...one of the nice things about a Utah County ward is there are enough LDS members that support can be offered to nonmembers as well as members in the area.  I don't know if other stakes do the same, but our stakes in this small town are very involved in the general community as well as individual support.

What I have observed about "plans" is that response is tailored to the individual's needs.  No one has had the same situation, even the three missionaries coming home early for mental health reasons.  I suspect much of what is done depends on how well a leader accesses the resources available.  Our bishop up in Canada had to get a bit more creative finding places for service missions for young adults who desire to serve, but chose not to or couldn't go on a mission, but the results were the same.  Nor was the ward as able to contribute as fully to the community since we were spread out through at least ten different neighbourhoods (Alberta is very high density LDS in comparison to the rest of Canada, especially south of us), but members were still participating in a number of community programs.

[SeekerB]

On 3/5/2015 at 10:19 PM, SmileyMcGee said:

Is this prediction a prophecy if it is realized and "speaking as a man" if it isn't?

Elder Holland  said "projection", not prediction.  There is a difference. A projection comes from data analysis, not the Lord.

[Calm]

I should mention our numbers of returns were high for the stake, but it gives me a greater opportunity to observe what was available and being done for a small number.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Calm

[Gray]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

We had four out of probably 8-10 missionaries return early in our ward, over the past few years.  I get the info as the bulletin person who puts the addresses up and a husband who is good friends with a large part of the ward (he is a very friendly and supportive man).  Two returned to the mission within a few months due to being helped to deal with the emotional issues that had intensified.  One was held as possibly returning for over a year, but the doctors have yet to figure out what the physical root of his pain is, so other options are now being explored so he can fulfill his desire to serve within his limitations.  One returned decided she wouldn't be able to handle the stress and after receiving treatment went to a small college not too far from home and is now, I believe, married in the temple.

Of the young men and women who chose not to go on a mission (includes my own child) there is significant outreach and support to stay active and involved with their extended age group and as far as I can tell (from the way the one who went on a mission was treated as compared to the one who didn't), there is little difference in treatment...at least in terms of invites to activities in and out of church as well as interest of leaders.  In fact, the nonmission child has recieved much more personalized care from leaders than the RM.

My husband volunteers weekly or more at the local bishop's storehouse.  A high percentage of volunteers there are young adults who are there as an alternative to going on missions.  Several are developmentally challenged and cannot function away from caregivers.  Others have chosen not to go on a mission at this time for other reasons.  Those leaders in charge of them and the other volunteers from what I have seen pretty much treat them with the same love and respect that the missionaries received, at times supplying greater amount of support and accomodation when needed.  There seems to be an relaxed closeness in the group among the different ages much like an extended family (comparing the two Christmas parties of my extended family and the storehouse celebration).

I know our bishop worked closely and extensively with all the inactive young adults who would accept his support, including helping one couple get married, find better jobs and education, etc.  I assume there are some failures, but he is a rather persistent and very likeable man so this ward has been successful overall from what I've seen and heard reported by youth and young adults as well as adults.  It is not perfect (we had a very difficult YWs situation due to a few girls and parents being rigid and arrogant, leaders were chosen that were very supportive to counteract that problem though I don't know the end result...will have to ask), but there is much attention and support being offered to everyone in the ward boundaries by ward members unless they have been asked not to contact...one of the nice things about a Utah County ward is there are enough LDS members that support can be offered to nonmembers as well as members in the area.  I don't know if other stakes do the same, but our stakes in this small town are very involved in the general community as well as individual support.

What I have observed about "plans" is that response is tailored to the individual's needs.  No one has had the same situation, even the three missionaries coming home early for mental health reasons.  I suspect much of what is done depends on how well a leader accesses the resources available.  Our bishop up in Canada had to get a bit more creative finding places for service missions for young adults who desire to serve, but chose not to or couldn't go on a mission, but the results were the same.  Nor was the ward as able to contribute as fully to the community since we were spread out through at least ten different neighbourhoods (Alberta is very high density LDS in comparison to the rest of Canada, especially south of us), but members were still participating in a number of community programs.

Missions are very stressful. Unfortunately they're set up to be that way, but I don't think they have to be that way. 

[ERMD]

19 hours ago, salgare said:

Fact.  I'm sorry to the youth of our wards who's High Priests of our wards don't care, nor do your leaders up the line, that they are 100% behind you being the elite 11th hour Stripling warrior missionaries, but if you don't go, come home in shame or later apostatize you are out in the cold on your own.

It is shameful that they will do this to you, but that simply is the way it is.  You have no advocates in the Church.  I pray that you might in your families

Your accusations and assumptions are baseless.  My son was one of those 11th hour "Stripling warrior" missionaries. He was sent home early and excommunicated-- "in shame", some would say.

Thanks to his stake president, his parents, his heart, and his Savior, 4 years later he was rebaptized and 2 months ago had his blessings restored.  Dozens of other friends and family members provided undying support.

He was hardly out in the cold on his own.  Your arguments are invalid.

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by ERMD
punctuation

[ERMD]

17 hours ago, salgare said:

Well I've questioned why the Church has no plan for our youth who do not stand up to the expectations put on them, from not going, coming home early or falling away after.

I've gotten no answers yet, seems my assumption is so, there is no plan and I maintain this is an immoral act for such an organization.

 

No plan?  See my post above.  You do not understand the Atonement and the role priesthood leaders play in helping to focus it in the lives of those who need its healing and renewal.

I feel sorry for you.