Is Satan A God?

[Uncle Dale]

I ask this, not as a purely LDS doctrinal question,

but as a general query.

I could have found myself engaged in a lengthy

argument with my neighbor's house guest last

week, had I not smiled, nodded my head, and

let his strongly voiced opinions go unanswered.

Briefly, his Christian (Assembly of God, I think)

viewpoint is that from some remote location,

Satan can enter into the minds of practically

every living inhabitant of planet earth, and

by this means "tempt them" and even guide

their sinful actions.

Like I said, I did not respond to what he said,

but if I had, I'm fairly certain he would have

known enough biblical examples, to have

cited Satan's having lifted Jesus to the top

of the Jerusalem temple, having gotten his

way in having Job's family destroyed, etc.

Without even bothering to get into Mormon

theology, is the Christian explanation of Satan

and his supposed supernatural powers about

equal to professing that he is a god?

UD

[The Nehor]

No, like many villains he mostly relies on his flunkies and toadies to do his work for him.

[ERayR]

What his status was as a "Son of the Morning" I do not know but whatever it was when he was cast out he was demoted.  i.e. cast out = demotion.

[The Nehor]

What his status was as a "Son of the Morning" I do not know but whatever it was when he was cast out he was demoted.  i.e. cast out = demotion.

I am not so sure "son of the morning" was an actual title. While I am willing to accept the dualistic nature of Isaiah it is a stretch that the appellation for the King of Babylon is also analogous to a heavenly PreMortal title.

He was also not demoted; his employment was terminated.

[Uncle Dale]

I am not so sure "son of the morning" was an actual title. While I am willing to accept the dualistic nature of Isaiah it is a stretch that the appellation for the King of Babylon is also analogous to a heavenly PreMortal title.

He was also not demoted; his employment was terminated.

 

.

Just so long as he cannot read my mind and try to

induce me to go out and secretly buy a Playboy magazine

 

UD

They do still publish it, don't they? For the last ten

years that spot at the local market's checkout stand

has been occupied by issues of National Enquirer.

[The Nehor]

.

Just so long as he cannot read my mind and try to

induce me to go out and secretly buy a Playboy magazine

 

UD

They do still publish it, don't they? For the last ten

years that spot at the local market's checkout stand

has been occupied by issues of National Enquirer.

I do not know about mind reading but if he is trying to induce the latter you may need a devil upgrade. All the modern ones realize that there are much less risky methods of acquiring pornography.

[Uncle Dale]

Had I taken the trouble to argue with the guy, I would

have probably just said that before he could reach

true godhood status, Satan would have to be able

to create worlds (or, in Saint-speak, organize them).

 

That might have shut him up.

 

UD

 

On the other hand, Presidential candidate

Romney spoke at length in an address, about

"God our Creator" -- so I'm not sure about it

[JLHPROF]

What his status was as a "Son of the Morning" I do not know but whatever it was when he was cast out he was demoted.  i.e. cast out = demotion.

 

That always makes me think of "morning of the first resurrection".

There's something about that word morning that is applied to the most righteous who are ready first to receive blessings.

 

I would bet Christ was also a "Son of the Morning" along with most of the "noble and great ones".

I would think Lucifer was destined to be a head of dispensation or a prophet before he apostatized.

 

As for God?  I think since God is a resurrected Celestialized being that all his spirit children were God in species only.  I don't see how any can have achieved full godhood without a body, for they would always be subject to those who have bodies.

[Uncle Dale]

...

There's something about that word morning that is applied to the most righteous

...

 

 

 

These sons of the morning always seemed to have

a lesser counterpart:

>Quetzalcoatl was often considered the god of the morning star,

>and his twin brother Xolotl was the evening star (Venus).

>As the morning star, he was known by the title

>Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, meaning "lord of the star of the dawn."

>Quetzalcoatl - Wikipedia

But, for pure righteousness and orthodoxy, a believer

cannot do better than being one of the Golden Dawn

>Wikipedia -- Golden Dawn... Aleister Crowley

>initiated into the Outer Order of the Golden Dawn on

>18 November 1898 ... at the Isis-Urania Temple...

>where Crowley accepted his motto and magical name

>of "Frater Perdurabo", a Latin term meaning

>"Brother I shall endure to the end"

 

UD

 

"Endure unto the end," eh?

Where have I heard that before?

[ERayR]

.

Just so long as he cannot read my mind and try to

induce me to go out and secretly buy a Playboy magazine

 

UD

They do still publish it, don't they? For the last ten

years that spot at the local market's checkout stand

has been occupied by issues of National Enquirer.

 

They tell me my mind is so simple anybody can read it.

[Kaleb Webb]

 

 

I am not so sure "son of the morning" was an actual title. While I am willing to accept the dualistic nature of Isaiah it is a stretch that the appellation for the King of Babylon is also analogous to a heavenly PreMortal title.

The name Lucifer is taken from latin, and means "morning star," "the planet Venus," and as an adjective means "light-bringing." The Septuagint word is heōsphoros, which is a name that literally means "bringer of dawn." Lucifer, of course, is recognized not just by LDS but also by the majority of the Christian world as being another name for Satan.

 

D&C 76:25 also refers to him as a son of the morning as well, and refers to him as one in authority in the presence of God, who was thrust down from the presence of God and the son.

 

" 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!"

[JLHPROF]

The name Lucifer is taken from latin, and means "morning star," "the planet Venus," and as an adjective means "light-bringing." The Septuagint word is heōsphoros, which is a name that literally means "bringer of dawn." Lucifer, of course, is recognized not just by LDS but also by the majority of the Christian world as being another name for Satan.

 

D&C 76:25 also refers to him as a son of the morning as well, and refers to him as one in authority in the presence of God, who was thrust down from the presence of God and the son.

 

" 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!"

 

 

Which I'm sure relates to Job 38

  7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

Lucifer was just one morning star/son of God.  I am sure there were many others.

[Uncle Dale]

The name Lucifer is taken from latin, and means "morning star," "the planet Venus," and as an adjective means "light-bringing." The Septuagint word is heōsphoros, which is a name that literally means "bringer of dawn." Lucifer, of course, is recognized not just by LDS but also by the majority of the Christian world as being another name for Satan.

 

D&C 76:25 also refers to him as a son of the morning as well, and refers to him as one in authority in the presence of God, who was thrust down from the presence of God and the son.

 

" 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!"

Interesting -- but any reliable encyclopedia will provide a

very different identification of the biblical Lucifer. I myself

did not comprehend thus until, in grad school I attempted

to use the names Satan and Lucifer interchangeably and

saw my paper knocked down a grade point.

Oh well....

UD

[mnn727]

Well, he does call himself 'the god of this world'  and he was given power to tempt mankind(2 Nephi 2:11–14; D&C 29:39)

.

[saemo]

I ask this, not as a purely LDS doctrinal question,

but as a general query.

I could have found myself engaged in a lengthy

argument with my neighbor's house guest last

week, had I not smiled, nodded my head, and

let his strongly voiced opinions go unanswered.

Briefly, his Christian (Assembly of God, I think)

viewpoint is that from some remote location,

Satan can enter into the minds of practically

every living inhabitant of planet earth, and

by this means "tempt them" and even guide

their sinful actions.

Like I said, I did not respond to what he said,

but if I had, I'm fairly certain he would have

known enough biblical examples, to have

cited Satan's having lifted Jesus to the top

of the Jerusalem temple, having gotten his

way in having Job's family destroyed, etc.

Without even bothering to get into Mormon

theology, is the Christian explanation of Satan

and his supposed supernatural powers about

equal to professing that he is a god?

UD

Satan is not omniscient, and no, cannot read minds. He is the Deceiver, and pretends to know for his own purposes.

 

The Temptation of Christ, I understand as an idea planted, a temptation made, but like many temptations, based on lies with just enough truth thrown in to make it plausible....or tempting.

Edited February 27, 2015 by saemo

[theplains]

 

About Satan:  "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this

world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel

of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them".

 

About Heavenly Father: All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help

his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to

bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). (Gospel Principles, 1997).

 

About Moses: "And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and

Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet".

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

[JLHPROF]

 

 

About Satan:  "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this

world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel

of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them".

 

True, the world follows him as a God more than our Heavenly Father.

 

About Heavenly Father: All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help

his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to

bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). (Gospel Principles, 1997).

 

True, just as puppies turn into dogs, so the children of the Father grow up to be like him.

 

About Moses: "And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and

Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet".

 

True - inasmuch as a poetic turn of phrase can be, but dispensation heads will stand as a kind of God (ruler) over their dispensations.

 

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Edited February 28, 2015 by JLHPROF

[The Nehor]

He is under the delusion that he is a god if that matters.

[Uncle Dale]

He is under the delusion that he is a god if that matters.

Just so long as he has to go walking about on two

feet, just like myself. Any being that can fly, or

teleport itself about, from here to there scares me.

If the biblical story is true, I assume that Satan had

to lift Jesus up, and carry him on his satanic back,

up to the tops of mountains and temples.

That sort of a piggy-backer devil doesn't frighten

me quite so much as the Gustave Dore engravings

in the old Milton volumes.

UD

Edited February 27, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[The Nehor]

Just so long as he has to go walking about on two

feet, just like myself. Any being that can fly, or

teleport itself about, from here to there scares me.

If the biblical story is true, I assume that Satan had

to lift Jesus up, and carry him on his satanic back,

up to the tops of mountains and temples.

That sort of a piggy-backer devil doesn't frighten

me quite so much as the Dure engravings in the

old Milton volumes.

UD

On the other hand if he can fly and teleport we get to have more fun in the Spirit World.

[rpn]

I don't believe he can go into minds except to the extent that minds permit his entrance.   We do know from the pigs experience that he can enter animal bodies.    We don't know where exorcisms fit.

 

But he cannot be a God because he doesnt' have a body.   Our divine natures as children of God give us lots of powers that we don't typically use as mortals, more than we know.   But we need that body in order to become like God, and Gods.

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

But he cannot be a God because he doesnt' have a body.  

 

 

Good thing -- that.

 

On the other hand, I was once taught that he sat alongside

a passel of other gods, around a great council table, and

offered to save human beings in their sin. -- While his older

brother (presumably possessing a body and thus already

a god among the council of gods), suggested saving the

hapless humans from their sin.

 

Maybe he should have never been admitted to sit with those

gods, if he himself did not yet have a body (and now never will).

 

UD

[bluebell]

Good thing -- that.

On the other hand, I was once taught that he sat alongside

a passel of other gods, around a great council table, and

offered to save human beings in their sin. -- While his older

brother (presumably possessing a body and thus already

a god among the council of gods), suggested saving the

hapless humans from their sin.

Maybe he should have never been admitted to sit with those

gods, if he himself did not yet have a body (and now never will).

UD

Just to clarify LDS doctrine on the subject-LDS believe that Christ did not have a body at that point either.

[Jude2]

He is a child of God but will never become or graduate to full heir and Son of God thus Godhood. Because of his rebellion he is denied a physical body so  he will never attain the power or priesthood authority of creation. 

[pogi]

Just to clarify LDS doctrine on the subject-LDS believe that Christ did not have a body at that point either.

 

I think that's his unique way of saying, "if Jehovah could be a God without a body, why not Lucifer"?

 

I don't think that Jehovah or Lucifer were God's until God chose, appointed, and ordained one of them to "go down".  Jehovah and Lucifer were no more God's then the rest of the children of heaven at that point.  They were the eldest and each volunteered for the role, hence the battle of heaven.