Is Satan A God?

[Uncle Dale]

Just to clarify LDS doctrine on the subject-LDS believe that Christ did not have a body at that point either.

If Jehovah was once as I am now, and I will be as he now

is (assuming that I ever go through the temple) then why

do I need a body to become a god?

The Holy Ghost progressed to godhood without a body.

If Jesus the son of Mary could obtain a seat at the

great council of gods, then somehow he progressed

fairly quickly from spirit birth to near godhood, with

no body.

But, that answer doesn't work well, if we say Jesus

organized this world and was the God of Israel,

having not yet obtained a body.

Perhaps his godly body was put into storage, while

he communed with Adam and Moses, and was only

"put back on" after the resurrection.

But, if that is the solution, then why an empty tomb?

UD

[bluebell]

If Jehovah was once as I am now, and I will be as he now

is (assuming that I ever go through the temple) then why

do I need a body to become a god?

The Holy Ghost progressed to godhood without a body.

If Jesus the son of Mary could obtain a seat at the

great council of gods, then somehow he progressed

fairly quickly from spirit birth to near godhood, with

no body.

But, that answer doesn't work well, if we say Jesus

organized this world and was the God of Israel,

having not yet obtained a body.

Perhaps his godly body was put into storage, while

he communed with Adam and Moses, and was only

"put back on" after the resurrection.

But, if that is the solution, then why an empty tomb?

UD

 

LDS theology is that you need  body to become perfect-a God with a capitol G.  Even Christ recognized that He was less than God before His resurrection and as God after.

 

I do not pretend to understand how it all works though, because it is also LDS theology that Christ was the Almighty God before His mortal life.  

[Uncle Dale]

LDS theology is that you need  body to become perfect-a God with a capitol G.  Even Christ recognized that He was less than God before His resurrection and as God after.

 

I do not pretend to understand how it all works though, because it is also LDS theology that Christ was the Almighty God before His mortal life.  

That may well be.

I'm not trying to criticize LDS theology, just

trying to understand it.

If Jehovah organized our earth (our solar system?)

(our galaxy?) and he and his wives populated that

organized world, and all of the following events told

about in the Hebrew Bible be true and authentic,

then that sort of "god" not confined within a body,

would be fully sufficient for my Jewish inlaws.

But, as I said, I do not understand LDS theology.

UD

[bluebell]

That may well be.

I'm not trying to criticize LDS theology, just

trying to understand it.

If Jehovah organized our earth (our solar system?)

(our galaxy?) and he and his wives populated that

organized world, and all of the following events told

about in the Hebrew Bible be true and authentic,

then that sort of "god" not confined within a body,

would be fully sufficient for my Jewish inlaws.

But, as I said, I do not understand LDS theology.

UD

 

LDS theology is that Jehovah (also known as Jesus, the Son of God) created everything under the direction of God the Father.  It is not His offspring that populated the organized world but the offspring of God the Father.

[Uncle Dale]

LDS theology is that Jehovah (also known as Jesus, the Son of God) created everything under the direction of God the Father.  It is not His offspring that populated the organized world but the offspring of God the Father.

Yeah, I knew that... I was just trying to make

my response short, for the sake of my Jewish

sister-in-law, niece, and assorted kinfolk.

Their YHWH does not actually produce spirit

children to populate worlds -- all is creation,

and organization is left to natural forces.

But, I'm left with a question in the back of my

mind -- had the brother of Jared reached out

to touch the whole body (after initially just

perceiving one of its fingers) would there

have been anything substantial to touch?

UD

[bluebell]

But, I'm left with a question in the back of my

mind -- had the brother of Jared reached out

to touch the whole body (after initially just

perceiving one of its fingers) would there

have been anything substantial to touch?

UD

 

According to lds theology-no.  Spirit is matter, but it is too refined for mortal people to interact with.

[Uncle Dale]

According to lds theology-no.  Spirit is matter, but it is too refined for mortal people to interact with.

 

.

I think I understand things, then -- up to that much-discussed

spring morning in 1820.

 

Had Joseph reached out his hand, there would have been

substantial, touchable celestialized flesh for both Eloheim

and the post-resurrection Jehovah -- but the Holy Spirit, not

having a body, could only be "touched" in a supernatural sort

of way, by entering into the praying boy himself.

 

Or, perhaps LDS theology teaches that the Holy Spirit was

not present on that marvelous occasion -- or, that President

Heber C. Kimball was teaching correct doctrine, when he said

that the Holy Ghost does have a body and is a man.

 

Is there one concise volume published by the Church, which

covers these topics in better detail than McConkie's old book

of "Mormon Doctrine" ???

 

UD

[JLHPROF]

LDS theology is that you need  body to become perfect-a God with a capitol G.  Even Christ recognized that He was less than God before His resurrection and as God after.

 

I do not pretend to understand how it all works though, because it is also LDS theology that Christ was the Almighty God before His mortal life.  

 

Interesting article - http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/does-the-bible-ever-refer-to-jesus-christ-as-god

 

Got me thinking, and I haven't had time to dig into scripture yet.

Are premortal Christ and the personage of the Holy Ghost actually full God's without bodies?

Even in scripture Christ distinguished between himself and God (not just the father, but separate from God). 

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

 

We know they are members of the Godhead, but just as the first and second counselors in the Bishopric aren't Bishops, and the first and second counselors in the First Presidency aren't the President of the Church, perhaps Christ and the Holy Ghost (pre-bodies) aren't capital G - God.

 

I personally think that you need a resurrected body to be a God, or else as we know all those mortals with bodies would have power over you who lacked a body.  (Just another reason I don't believe Christ was Jehovah in the OT).

Edited February 27, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Jude2]

I think that's his unique way of saying, "if Jehovah could be a God without a body, why not Lucifer"?

 

I don't think that Jehovah or Lucifer were God's until God chose, appointed, and ordained one of them to "go down".  Jehovah and Lucifer were no more God's then the rest of the children of heaven at that point.  They were the eldest and each volunteered for the role, hence the battle of heaven. 

 

“That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.” D&C 121

 

My understanding is that as we become more and more in line with the will of our Heavenly Father we will become more righteous or obey the principles of righteousness.  It’s not something which will suddenly come upon us but we will gradually become one with Him and become God. 

 

But Jesus  he was different. 

 

“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity…” 

 

The Son has always been righteous, The Father’s will has always been His will thus he was anointed God even before he had his perfect immortal body. 

 

I’m going to need an eon or two. 

[telnetd]

 

About Heavenly Father: All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help

his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to

bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). (Gospel Principles, 1997).

 

True, just as puppies turn into Gods, so the children of the Father grow up to be like him.

 

You might have meant "just as puppies turn into older dogs...".  A puppy is a young

dog, but humans are not young Deities.

 

Gail

[JLHPROF]

You might have meant "just as puppies turn into older dogs...".  A puppy is a young

dog, but humans are not young Deities.

 

Gail

 

I did mean dogs, yep.  Thanks, fixed it.

 

But yes, humans are absolutely young deities, if they choose to develop down that path.

[theplains]

But yes, humans are absolutely young deities, if they choose to develop down that path.

 

That word 'if' makes your statement a little confusing.

 

Are you saying that you are [present tense] absolutely a young deity if you

choose to develop down that path but I am not [present tense] a young

deity if I choose not to develop down that path?

 

The Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual says, "By obedience and

devotion to the truth he [Jesus] attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as

a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state".

 

Will it be your reaching a certain level of intelligence that also makes you a God like Jesus

had to progress to?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Stone holm]

That always makes me think of "morning of the first resurrection".

There's something about that word morning that is applied to the most righteous who are ready first to receive blessings.

 

I would bet Christ was also a "Son of the Morning" along with most of the "noble and great ones".

I would think Lucifer was destined to be a head of dispensation or a prophet before he apostatized.

 

As for God?  I think since God is a resurrected Celestialized being that all his spirit children were God in species only.  I don't see how any can have achieved full godhood without a body, for they would always be subject to those who have bodies.

So what status would that leave the Holy Ghost in? And the God of the Old Testament is whom?

[JLHPROF]

So what status would that leave the Holy Ghost in? And the God of the Old Testament is whom?

 

As I said on another thread, I view the premortal spirits of Christ and the Holy Ghost as God's to us, but that they have not attained full Godhood.  They are the counselors in the Bishopric of the Gods, not the Bishop.  Christ said none was good but God and prayed to the Father, showing that God is above the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Also Joseph Smith taught clearly that all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.

 

And the God of the Old Testament is Jehovah, Adam's God from a previous creation (as taught by Brigham Young).  You know I am a believer in Adam-God, and don't accept that Christ attained the office of Jehovah until AFTER his resurrection as described in D&C 110.

[JLHPROF]

That word 'if' makes your statement a little confusing.

 

Are you saying that you are [present tense] absolutely a young deity if you

choose to develop down that path but I am not [present tense] a young

deity if I choose not to develop down that path?

 

The Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual says, "By obedience and

devotion to the truth he [Jesus] attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as

a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state".

 

Will it be your reaching a certain level of intelligence that also makes you a God like Jesus

had to progress to?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

You are splitting hairs.  We are all young deities.  Whether we progress in glory and intelligence to become Gods is a result of our choices.

[Stone holm]

As I said on another thread, I view the premortal spirits of Christ and the Holy Ghost as God's to us, but that they have not attained full Godhood.  They are the counselors in the Bishopric of the Gods, not the Bishop.  Christ said none was good but God and prayed to the Father, showing that God is above the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Also Joseph Smith taught clearly that all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.

 

And the God of the Old Testament is Jehovah, Adam's God from a previous creation (as taught by Brigham Young).  You know I am a believer in Adam-God, and don't accept that Christ attained the office of Jehovah until AFTER his resurrection as described in D&C 110.

I see. Leaving the Adam God theory aside. Our current teachings are that Jehovah was Christ and that He created this world according to Heavenly Father's plan.

[JLHPROF]

I see. Leaving the Adam God theory aside. Our current teachings are that Jehovah was Christ and that He created this world according to Heavenly Father's plan.

 

Never denied that.  I gave my beliefs, not offical Church doctrines.  I don't believe official Church teachings are correct on the subject.

[tonie]

Does Godhood require flesh and bone? Does it require knowledge of good and evil, with stirct adherance to good?

[JLHPROF]

Does Godhood require flesh and bone? Does it require knowledge of good and evil, with stirct adherance to good?

 Depends on how you personally define a "God" (or a "god" as some people differentiate).

[strappinglad]

Some believe that the Holy Ghost is the feminine part of God. Some , that the HG is permanently Spirit only. Some, that the Holy Ghost is a priesthood office that is filled by different spirits at different times throughout creation. Perhaps the HG is a completely different entity entirely from the human/god species.

I suppose one could make it a matter of fervent prayer in order to receive a personal revelation on the matter. Then again, that might be like revealing a Jumbo Jet to an ant.

[Uncle Dale]

Some believe that the Holy Ghost is the feminine part of God. Some , that the HG is permanently Spirit only. Some, that the Holy Ghost is a priesthood office that is filled by different spirits at different times throughout creation. Perhaps the HG is a completely different entity entirely from the human/god species.

I suppose one could make it a matter of fervent prayer in order to receive a personal revelation on the matter. Then again, that might be like revealing a Jumbo Jet to an ant.

 

The 1835 "Lectures on Faith" seem to imply that the Holy Spirit

is a Divine Power (perhaps with a personality of its own) which

emanates or is derived from God the Father and God the Son.

 

Thus, at that stage of Mormon theological, the "Spirit" was not

seen as either a progressed human being nor as a spirit-child

coming forth in the pre-existance, from celestialized beings.

 

Those lectures appear to mark a transition point, from the Book

of Mormon's Christological modalism, to the Nauvoo era theology.

Yes, I know that the Book of Mormon does not exactly depict the

kind of modalism current in late 18th century thought (that "God"

is the "Father," when in heaven, and the "Son" when on earth),

but I doubt that most of its 1830s readers knew enough about

Christian Christology, to draw that distinction.

 

Thus -- as I see it -- the first readers of the Book of Mormon viewed

the "Spirit" as a power (or even a fluid) coming to earthlings from

the Father and/or the Son. The first readers of the D&C viewed

that same "Spirit" in somewhat similar terms, but at the same time

Mormon theology was making the transition to viewing the "Spirit"

as having a personhood of its own (not exactly trinitarian, but

describable in some of the same language trinitarians use).

 

By the Nauvoo era, Mormon understandings of such things had

developed even more...

 

However, my heritage is in a church that rejected the Nauvoo theology;

so the Reorganites were left hanging in the aftermath of the views

expressed in the 1835 D&C, but not quite sure what all of it meant.

 

I assume that the Mormons, after leaving Nauvoo, came up with

their own explanations, and that we should look to John Taylor's

"Mediation and Atonement" and to Talmadge's writings, for the

post-Nauvoo LDS developments.

 

UD

[theplains]

The 1835 "Lectures on Faith" seem to imply that the Holy Spirit

is a Divine Power (perhaps with a personality of its own) which

emanates or is derived from God the Father and God the Son.

 

The same "Lectures on Faith" said there are only two personages in the Godhead.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Uncle Dale]

The same "Lectures on Faith" said there are only two personages in the Godhead.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

Yeah -- after stepping back from the idea of three persons

(or three personages) the early Mormons seem to have

realized that they had gone too far in their reductionism,

and looked for a better explanation than the two persons

idea. But, as I said, those Saints who became RLDS were

left "hanging" at that point.

 

I've attended Reorganized classes in which the two-person

godhead was taught, and, a week later in the same room,

a class where Father, Son and Spirit were emphasized as

being equally important to our understanding of things.

 

An understanding which, again, got totally muddled when

the teacher with the dual-godhead lecture notes showed up.

 

Oh well...

 

UD

[theplains]

An understanding which, again, got totally muddled when

the teacher with the dual-godhead lecture notes showed up.

 

Oh well...

 

UD

 

Are you aware of any revelation to the LDS Church which corrected that earlier error in

the Lectures on Faith?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Uncle Dale]

Are you aware of any revelation to the LDS Church which corrected that earlier error in

the Lectures on Faith?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

I haven't thumbed through the LDS D&C recently,

but I don't recall anything that totally demolishes

the old lectures' theology.

 

Probably a half-dozen smart LDS apologists, given

the task, could come up with an equal number of

D&C passages antithetical to the dual godhead.

 

I won't even begin to think about uncanonized

revelations, 1st Pres statements, conference talks,

etc. But, as I mentioned earlier, I think that Taylor's

book was written to set the LDS back on an even

keel, after years of Adam=God confusion. That's

where I'd recommend your looking, first off.

 

UD