The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Wow! We actually agree on something. I too find the drone policy morally reprehensible.That being said, I still see improvement. After all, the Japanese were never a threat to mainland USA. In fact, they never even reached Hawaii after that first sneak attack. Interning American CITIZENS to prevent a non-existent attack on the west coast doesn't seem very justified at all.And as much as I hate our drone policy, I do find it more humane than dropping nuclear bombs on civilians or fire bombing major cities like Tokyo and Dresden.Once again, we ain't what we wanna be, we ain't what we gonna be, but thank God we ain't what we was.It is true that the Japanese were not a huge threat to the mainland US but they did not know that. The transition to understanding the importance of air power and carriers was not complete and many (on both sides) still thought the war for the Pacific would be fought in a battleship battle and we had just had the majority of the battleship fleet knocked out of action. On top of that an invasion of the west coast was expected. There were articles in newspapers at the time stating that our best chance was to fight on the beaches and fall back to the Rockies. Time would show that the battleships were not that useful and that the Japanese did not have that much of an amphibious capability or the manpower to invade while fighting in China and elsewhere.I used to oppose the use of atomic weapons in Japan but the more I read that more I think it was the right call. The Japanese government still wanted a negotiated peace and were almost excited when Nagasaki was hit as it gave them the pretext to surrender. If you run the numbers of people in SE Asia starving because of the war, those would have starved in Japan, and the continuing loss of troops and civilians in all theaters, the firebombings and the nukes almost certainly saved more lives then they cost and the people who died were more culpable then those who would have died otherwise. I hate this conclusion but there it is.I really do not think we have improved. Our weapons just make it easier to be a little more discriminating. We do not seem to care that much about getting our target though. We still are not sure who we killed in most of our drone strikes. I think the firebombings of WW2 were more justifiable. That level of destruction was all we could do and destroying their ability to continue the war was our main objective. Drones are more like assassins. They are not winning (and therefore ending) a war. Edited February 19, 2015 by The Nehor 2
mormonnewb Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) You are confusing the acts of wicked men with the faith of the average man.I agree with you that society has become better (at least civilized society) at dealing with social evils such as slavery etc.However, this has little to do with righteousness. Righteousness is about mans relationship with God. As a percentage, far fewer people today are concerned with God's will. Far fewer attend Church. Far fewer even think about keeping any commandment.The whole "I'm spiritual but not religious" line...No, society MAY be less pure evil, but they are a lot less Godly too.How do you so cleanly separate man's relationship with God from man's relationship with other men?I just don't think its possible to truly love HF and mistreat His children. Edited February 20, 2015 by mormonnewb
JLHPROF Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 How do you so cleanly separate man's relationship with God from man's relationship with other men?I just don't think its possible to truly love HF and mistreat His children. I agree.But it's basic mathematics. Enter imaginary small US village.Take a sample of 100 people (and a little bit of exaggerated estimating and dramatic license)100 years ago probably 85/100 were church going, good folks sincerely trying to do God's will.Today maybe 45/100 are church going good folks, another 10 are "spiritual but not religious" and the remaining 45 think religion is a sham and follow a secular path. Now that fact that in this town there were 2 murders and 1 cow stolen back in 1914, but here in 2014 there has only been 1 murder and the cows are where they belong is NOT proof of righteous progression. 85% true Christian /15% atheist and we end up with 2 murders and a cattle theft.45% true Christian/10% maybes / 45% atheist and we end up with 1 murder and no cattle theft. I don't think God would consider the village is more righteous now than when the majority were trying to do his will just because they hired a guard to watch the cattle field and one less person lost their violent temper. That's where we are today - we've learned to prevent some crimes, eliminate some social flaws, but we are further from God in the desires of our hearts than we've ever been.Maybe another way to say it is society has become better at BEING Christian but there are fewer people willing to follow Christ. 2
Thinking Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 It was suggested on another thread that those who fall away from the Church are miserable?Why does it seem some who lack faith won't be satisfied until those who do have faith are somehow constrained to "admit " they secretly have doubts? Is it because misery loves company? Some of your posts suggest a miserable state. Maybe those who have fallen away aren't the miserable ones.
Stargazer Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 I'd just love to be ready for him to return. Right now I think I'm too much of a work in progress... Now, there's a notion I can wholeheartedly agree with. I am learning too much now to wish for it to end quite so soon. 1
rodheadlee Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 So is the world going to start rejecting God? Because the world is becoming an increasingly wonderful place. In fact, on every conceivable measuring metric, there has never been a better time to be alive and people have never been more righteous.So do you predict some future falling away or have we currently fallen away and we just haven't felt the effects yet?Your kidding right? How old are you anyway? Where do you live (it's rhetorical) on a hill in _______ Utah, in a gated secure community. The StL Trib doesn't even put world news on their front page of their website. I think you all live in a cocoon. In the 1960s I was a little boy in a suburb of Los Angeles. I could walk to the store by myself without fear of being molested, kidnapped, robbed, beaten or shot for wearing the wrong color of clothing. My dad could leave his keys in the car over night and no one would steal it, You could vacation in Acapulco, MX without fear of the Gaddianton Robbers kidnapping and killing you or holding you for ransom. Masses of homless people did not live in camps by the river. 1% of the population did not own 48% of the world's wealth. The city I live in now is the murder capital of California. All is well in Zion. Wake up : 1
canard78 Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 I am tired of the violence, corruption, and evil. I just wish the Savior would return soon. I hope I will be alive when He does return. My opinion 20-40 years. Don't hold your breath... Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren. Boyd K Packer, Oct 2011https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/counsel-to-youth?lang=eng
JLHPROF Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 Don't hold your breath... "Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren." Boyd K Packer, Oct 2011https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/counsel-to-youth?lang=eng I think Pres. Packer is both right and wrong. I think the end will come much more quickly than he allows for in this discourse. I also think that this discourse is just his opinion and I am surprised at how often this is quoted as doctrine. However, scriptures tell us we will continue to marry, raise children, have grandchildren and all those things into the Millennium, so he is right about life continuing. The "end" isn't what we are expecting. The Millennium and the return of Christ are. I think Pres. Packer overstepped quite a bit when he definitively said the "end" won't be here soon. But he's right that our kids and their kids will continue to grow up, get married and have kids of their own. The Millennium and the second coming won't stop that. 1
canard78 Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 I think Pres. Packer is both right and wrong. I think the end will come much more quickly than he allows for in this discourse. I also think that this discourse is just his opinion and I am surprised at how often this is quoted as doctrine.However, scriptures tell us we will continue to marry, raise children, have grandchildren and all those things into the Millennium, so he is right about life continuing. The "end" isn't what we are expecting. The Millennium and the return of Christ are.I think Pres. Packer overstepped quite a bit when he definitively said the "end" won't be here soon. But he's right that our kids and their kids will continue to grow up, get married and have kids of their own. The Millennium and the second coming won't stop that.So President Packer gets buffeted by critics who dislike his perspectives on sexuality and also dismissed by the orthodox crowd who think the second coming is around the corner. Seems strange for me to be siding with President Packer on a position but on this one, I agree with him... The end is not nigh. The world will continue uninterrupted for a good few hundred years. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 Didn't you guys already hear? Jesus came and you missed Him. What were you doing, napping?
Stargazer Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 So President Packer gets buffeted by critics who dislike his perspectives on sexuality and also dismissed by the orthodox crowd who think the second coming is around the corner.Seems strange for me to be siding with President Packer on a position but on this one, I agree with him... The end is not nigh. The world will continue uninterrupted for a good few hundred years. I both agree and disagree with him on this. The second coming might occur in five years from now, or it might not, but our job is nevertheless to live our lives as best we can, do what we are supposed to do, and don't get all caught up in worrying about the future state of the world. I remember back in high school in the early 1970s some of my fellow students who were so caught up in the horrors of the world that they said implacable things like how evil it was to bring children into the bad world. It was baloney to think that way. But they were all caught up in worrying about the future. Those who ignored them and had children anyway were the optimists whose reward was not denied for their hope. The pinch-pennies who didn't have children were not at all justified in the end. And never will be. 3
Calm Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 Where do you live (it's rhetorical) on a hill in _______ Utah, in a gated secure community. Iirc, he lives in Arizona, he definitely does not live in Utah though.
carbon dioxide Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) There is a tendency to minimize sexual sin in the past. Part of this is a rosy view of Utah's past which did not have as serious a problem with infidelity and fornication as the rest of the world though they had problems like everywhere else. We are more flagrant in breaking the law of chastity then most generations of the past. The rise of contraception has removed much of the unkindness of the past (leaving a woman pregnant and unmarried is much less likely if you are smart).I think the world is becoming more cruel. The United States is an outlier. We have faced little real danger in the 200 years of our existence. We can afford tolerance because it is a cheap virtue. Throw us into the fires of tribulation and racism, hatred, and anger will ruin us again. Look at 9/11. It was a pinprick but we went to pieces with hatred, racism, and a burning desire for vengeance.American society is pretty pathetic and weak if you look at it. A couple of guys set off some bombs in Boston and the city shuts down for a few days. I bomb goes off in any Middle East city, kills a lot more people, the people just roll with it. They don't shut the city down. If cell phone service does down for a few days or people can't log onto Facebook for too long, they experience a lot of stress. Petty things really but to many they are real trials. If another great depression hits America or it was to suffer great disaster, our society would break. Edited February 20, 2015 by carbon dioxide 2
TrishaK Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 The fiction book Wind of Fire, but Stephen Fritz, got me thinking about ALL the things mentioned in this thread. I not meaning to be a promoter, but I love the visuals the book offers regarding the Second Coming. I think he purposely avoided naming out all the "signs", but there are some mentioned. The story is told from the point of view of a 12 yr old, so I think it limited the author in giving too worldly a view. I like and agree with his perspective of the burning. I think the righeous are protected and don't feel the pain as others are consumed. It may be painful, but I bet it is quick. The end of the book is a perspective of our roles in the Millenium. It becomes a barter society and we work our days. It was Brigham Young who said we may "walk on roads paved in gold, but it will be gold we mine." I love that. I think too many people think the "next" life is supposed to be easy floating around on clouds. I think it may shock some people to find out they will be working harder than they did in this "easy" life we have. 1
Ahab Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 This just in: He's coming back soon!Stand by for more details. 1
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 The end of the book is a perspective of our roles in the Millenium. It becomes a barter society and we work our days. It was Brigham Young who said we may "walk on roads paved in gold, but it will be gold we mine." I love that. I think too many people think the "next" life is supposed to be easy floating around on clouds. I think it may shock some people to find out they will be working harder than they did in this "easy" life we have.Okay, now I definitely do not want the Second Coming. A barter economy with longer working hours spent in gold mines so the streets can be pretty. Entering into the rest of the Lord seems.....blech. 1
Calm Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I would think gold roads would be hard on the feet and give little to no decent traction for cars when wet. And what a waste. Much prefer the idea of solar panel roads…not only great to drive on, hardly any removal of snow and can provide all the power we need once they get set up and working decently….if they can manage that. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Didn't you guys already hear? Jesus came and you missed Him. What were you doing, napping?Jesus came and I wasn't consumed along with all of the other ungodly folks? How did that happen??!!!
rodheadlee Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/09/what-are-waiting-for-slick-new-isis-campaign-puts-new-face-on-homegrown-terror/ 9 ¶ Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare awar, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am astrong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy amighty ones to come down, O Lord. 12 Let the aheathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to bjudge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the asickle, for the bharvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the cpress is full, the dfats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, amultitudes in the valley of decision: for the bday of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.http://abcnews.go.com/International/families-public-pleas-british-schoolgirls-feared-headed-isis/story?id=29127245 http://abcnews.go.com/International/young-women-join-isis/story?id=29112401 The US estimates there are 20,000 foreign fighters in Syria. http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/12/world/meast/isis-numbers/index.html Edited February 22, 2015 by rodheadlee
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 This just in: He's coming back soon!Stand by for more details.After 2000 years proclamations of his coming being imminent have gotten a little stale.
JLHPROF Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 After 2000 years proclamations of his coming being imminent have gotten a little stale. Yep - we're almost ready in our doubt of his coming, we're almost conviced he delays it... Matthew 24 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be....48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
The Nehor Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Yep - we're almost ready in our doubt of his coming, we're almost conviced he delays it...I do not think he is delaying it. I think we have been too eagerly anticipating for the last 2000 years. What is so special about right now?
JLHPROF Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) I do not think he is delaying it. I think we have been too eagerly anticipating for the last 2000 years. What is so special about right now? We've who are supposed to be preparing have started saying "he's not coming yet" instead of predicting it every other week...That's kind of new.. Edited February 23, 2015 by JLHPROF
strappinglad Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 What is so special about right now? Because it is ' our time on earth ' We are entitled to be there at His coming. We are SPECIAL don't you know ? As for gold roads, all the gold that has ever been mined is said to be enclosable in a cube 50 ft. on a side. If true ,that would build a road with a half inch thick gold topping about 10 miles long. It's going to be a pretty small Celestial city even if we double the amount of gold mined. 2
ERayR Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 I do not think he is delaying it. I think we have been too eagerly anticipating for the last 2000 years. What is so special about right now? There has never been so many of the "signs of the times" lined up as there is now. 1
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