Adam God Theory

[JLHPROF]

Yes it is, just not your understanding of it.

 

What you are expressing as defining Adam as the Father of our Spirits has no resemblance to what Brigham Young taught about Adam.  That has no bearing on my understanding.  Brigham said one thing.  You say another.  They are not in harmony.  My understanding of Brigham's teachings on Adam-God are based on all of his discourses on the subject.  They do not match your doctrinal explanations.

 

If I misunderstood anything it wasn't Brigham, it was your explanations, so I'll happily take further clarification as to what you believe.  But so far it doesn't resemble what Brigham taught.

[Ahab]

Truth is truth no matter how many accept it. The earth was still round like a ball when the Bible declared it to be flat.

The earth is flat, in some places.

Do you have trouble understanding English or something?

[Ahab]

What you are expressing as defining Adam as the Father of our Spirits has no resemblance to what Brigham Young taught about Adam.

In your opinion, based on your own understanding.

That has no bearing on my understanding.

You mean my understanding has no bearing on your understanding? Okay. I can live with that.

Brigham said one thing. You say another. They are not in harmony.

Yes they are, just not according to your understanding.

My understanding of Brigham's teachings on Adam-God are based on all of his discourses on the subject. They do not match your doctrinal explanations.

Yes they do, just not according to your understanding.

If I misunderstood anything it wasn't Brigham, it was your explanations, so I'll happily take further clarification as to what you believe. But so far it doesn't resemble what Brigham taught.

Once you correctly understand me, if and/or when you ever do, you will then understand that my understanding of the truth regarding Adam and God, both individually and collectively speaking, is in harmony and agreement with what Joseph and Brigham both knew and understood, and is what I know and understand.

And then we'll see if you will still say that my understanding has no bearing on your understanding.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ahab

[Brian 2.0]

I think I understand your position now, Ahab. But to believe like you I have to change the definition of so many words (like begat or born) and I'm not willing to do that. And it doesn't look like anyone else here is willing to do that either.

[Ahab]

I think I understand your position now, Ahab. But to believe like you I have to change the definition of so many words (like begat or born) and I'm not willing to do that. And it doesn't look like anyone else here is willing to do that either.

If you did understand me, and what it truly means or what is happening when someone is begat or born, you should see that I am simply telling the truth.

And you still haven't answered my question about what is being born or begat when someone is begat or born on this earth.

What is it? Where did it come from? Who is it?

This is very basic stuff here, and you can bet that both Joseph and Brigham had the same knowledge and understanding that I do, at least, on these issues.

[Brian 2.0]

If you did understand me, and what it truly means or what is happening when someone is begat or born, you should see that I am simply telling the truth.

And you still haven't answered my question about what is being born or begat when someone is begat or born on this earth.

What is it? Where did it come from? Who is it?

This is very basic stuff here, and you can bet that both Joseph and Brigham had the same knowledge and understanding that I do, at least, on these issues.

A physical mortal body is being born and spirit is entering into it. The spirit is NOT being born. That happened previously.

[Ahab]

A physical mortal body is being born and spirit is entering into it. The spirit is NOT being born. That happened previously.

So when do you think the spirit enters into it?

Not until after the baby comes out of the womb?

So before that, when the baby is still inside of the womb, what life is in that baby, if the baby is alive inside of the womb?

I believe the spirit has already entered into the baby body before it leaves the womb, so that's why I'm saying the spirit is born combined with the mortal body. Not that the spirit didn't exist before it came out of the womb. The spirit is eternal, coexistent with the spirit of the parent, in fact all of its parents. What is begotten or born isn't the very beginning of a person. There is no ultimate beginning for any of us. We are eternal.

[JLHPROF]

So when do you think the spirit enters into it?

Not until after the baby comes out of the womb?

So before that, when the baby is still inside of the womb, what life is in that baby, if the baby is alive inside of the womb?

I believe the spirit has already entered into the baby body before it leaves the womb, so that's why I'm saying the spirit is born combined with the mortal body. Not that the spirit didn't exist before it came out of the womb. The spirit is eternal, coexistent with the spirit of the parent, in fact all of its parents. What is begotten or born isn't the very beginning of a person. There is no ultimate beginning for any of us. We are eternal.

 

This is overcomplicating a very simple doctrine and is the main reason the GA's chose to cease teaching the Adam-God doctrine.  People overcomplicated a simple revelation through theory and speculation instead of accepting the prophet's teaching.

 

Adam and Eve are the direct Heavenly Father and Mother of our spirits.  As resurrected beings who had achieved exaltation (Gods) they "begat" our spirits (eternal increase) in the premortal existence - first generation, not by descent.  Our actual spirit parents.  The beings that took us from unorganized intelligences and provided us with spirit bodies, whether through sex or some unrevealed method.

 

Adam and Eve then elected to transgress physical law in order that they might become capable in the Garden of procreating mortal physical bodies.  The gave up their immortality and became subject to the physical world.  We are descended from that lineage.  Adam and Eve are only the Father and Mother of our physical bodies by descent.

 

This is what Brigham clearly taught.  All else is manipulation and speculation on a very simple doctrine that a prophet claimed by revelation and is not borne out in the teachings of the prophets or the temple.  The temple teaches this very clearly for those with eyes to see, even without the lecture at the veil.

[Brian 2.0]

So when do you think the spirit enters into it?

Not until after the baby comes out of the womb?

So before that, when the baby is still inside of the womb, what life is in that baby, if the baby is alive inside of the womb?

I believe the spirit has already entered into the baby body before it leaves the womb, so that's why I'm saying the spirit is born combined with the mortal body. Not that the spirit didn't exist before it came out of the womb. The spirit is eternal, coexistent with the spirit of the parent, in fact all of its parents. What is begotten or born isn't the very beginning of a person. There is no ultimate beginning for any of us. We are eternal.

The fact that the spirit was present in the mortal body during the birthing process does not equal the spirit "being born" during the birthing process. "Born" is creation, coming into being, not existing previously. You can't say that about the spirit body during the mortal birth process, no matter how much you want to.

Let me explain this is a more fun way...

When the good people at the Reese's factory put peanut butter into a chocolate cup then a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup is born... but you know what was NOT born, or begat, during that process? The Peanut Butter.

[Ahab]

Ugh. I know that what I know is right and you guys think and feel the same way. So we're even!

I'm going to stop trying to share what I know about all of this now.

[insert a laugh here]

[Rivers]

This is overcomplicating a very simple doctrine and is the main reason the GA's chose to cease teaching the Adam-God doctrine.  People overcomplicated a simple revelation through theory and speculation instead of accepting the prophet's teaching.

 

Adam and Eve are the direct Heavenly Father and Mother of our spirits.  As resurrected beings who had achieved exaltation (Gods) they "begat" our spirits (eternal increase) in the premortal existence - first generation, not by descent.  Our actual spirit parents.  The beings that took us from unorganized intelligences and provided us with spirit bodies, whether through sex or some unrevealed method.

 

Adam and Eve then elected to transgress physical law in order that they might become capable in the Garden of procreating mortal physical bodies.  The gave up their immortality and became subject to the physical world.  We are descended from that lineage.  Adam and Eve are only the Father and Mother of our physical bodies by descent.

 

This is what Brigham clearly taught.  All else is manipulation and speculation on a very simple doctrine that a prophet claimed by revelation and is not borne out in the teachings of the prophets or the temple.  The temple teaches this very clearly for those with eyes to see, even without the lecture at the veil.

I wonder what would happen if I taught this in a sacrament meeting talk.

[JLHPROF]

I wonder what would happen if I taught this in a sacrament meeting talk.

 

Current policy would mandate at least a disciplinary interview...persistence can lead to excommunication (which I find a very silly policy).

[VideoGameJunkie]

It's funny how a lot of what Brigham Young taught is grounds for discipline today. Makes you think......

[JLHPROF]

It's funny how a lot of what Brigham Young taught is grounds for discipline today. Makes you think......

 

Oh many of the early General Authorities would be excommunicated today if they were unwilling to accept the changes that have occurred in the Church.  If we were to post some of their strongest stances on doctrine, the ones that they refused to yield at all on, many would be grounds for discipline.  Not just Brigham.  Joseph F. Smith was vehemently against changing the garment in any way at all.  John Taylor and Heber C. Kimball spoke doom upon the Church if they gave up polygamy.  Harold B. Lee  was very much opposed to ending the priesthood ban.  And on, and on, and on...

 

It is optimistic to think they would have accepted all the changes unless presented with undeniable revelation, and that would lead to discipline today.

[Coreyb]

https://daymonsmith.wordpress.com/2015/01/21/the-truth-and-lying-for-the-lord/

Thought this might be of interest on this thread

[Jim Stiles]

Just to refresh your memory or if you are not aware of it, MRM are the guys that collect a bunch of youngens and bus into the Manti pageant to witness to the poor folks there so that they won't be seduced by the romance and drama of it all….and their main production is having 34 women, including a young looking 14 year old holding a big teddy bear to be sure it was noticed (I am assuming that they are at least honest enough to have her the right age even if they went for a less delevoped girl than Helen likely was as she described herself as looking old for her age) dress up as Joseph Smith's wives.  The first year or so, they would have them all go to the bathrooms at the same time to cause a scene and they got banned from using them iirc.  And they offer links to secretly filmed temple videos, claim we are taught to systematically lie for the Lord and the usual anti stuff, so yes they most definitely qualify as anti-mormon in all the standard ways.

Fourteen year old women were probably less well developed in the 1840s than today, since women today have their first menstrual period earlier than in the 19th century.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Jim Stiles

[Calm]

However to look significantly older than one was at age fourteen even then (iirc Helen's comment was something along the lines of no one raised their eyebrows upon seeing her out with her father in heir carriage which implied given the customs of the time a girl seen more as an adult to be part of society as opposed to a child of the type to play with teddy bears), enough to comment on it more than likely puberty has begun because change in appearance at that age is minor before that.

I know of a fourteen year old who was teaching school not to many years later. Presenting Helen as a child who snuggled teddy bears instead of someone who saw herself as fully involved in the young adult social scene with choirs iirc and attending many dances is deceptive, ,they are trying to give the impression of an hardly formed girl in mind or body.

The large teddy bear itself is anachronistic I believe.

http://www.history.com/news/ask-history/who-invented-the-teddy-bear

Edited January 23, 2015 by calmoriah

[Mormon Puzzle Pieces]

Brigham Young said that Moses was a god to Israel.

When speaking about Moses or Adam being a god, Brigham did not capitalize the word, but his remarks were transcribed and published with punctuation and capitalization added by others.

Young never said that we should worship Adam or pray to Adam or any such thing.

Young did not claim that Adam was Heavenly Father. Young did claim that Adam was Michael.

Michael means, "like God."

Heavenly Father lives in the Celestial Kingdom. He does not live in the telestial world.

Adam was given keys over the telestial world and it evidently is under his stewardship - which explains why he was the one who brought lucifer here.

We are in a telestial world, it is the only world we are in, although we have visitors and the light of Christ and the Holy Ghost, we are in a telestial world. It is the only world with which we have to do until we return to the spirit world. Our business is here Adam is our father on the earth, a lesser father than Heavenly Father, but a father nonetheless (like the father I call dad - and all the fathers leading back to Adam, with Adam being the father of us all).

We are told that many things happened in preparation for our coming to earth. I don't know at what point we entered our second estate, but our second estate does not take away from our first estate. It adds to it. Elohim is our Father. Adding Adam as our father does not take away from that.

A lot of the details are likely outside of our ability to comprehend, and dealing with things we aren't able to consider because of the veil.

[Coreyb]

Brigham Young said that Moses was a god to Israel.

When speaking about Moses or Adam being a god, Brigham did not capitalize the word, but his remarks were transcribed and published with punctuation and capitalization added by others.

Young never said that we should worship Adam or pray to Adam or any such thing.

Young did not claim that Adam was Heavenly Father. Young did claim that Adam was Michael.

Michael means, "like God."

Heavenly Father lives in the Celestial Kingdom. He does not live in the telestial world.

Adam was given keys over the telestial world and it evidently is under his stewardship - which explains why he was the one who brought lucifer here.

We are in a telestial world, it is the only world we are in, although we have visitors and the light of Christ and the Holy Ghost, we are in a telestial world. It is the only world with which we have to do until we return to the spirit world. Our business is here Adam is our father on the earth, a lesser father than Heavenly Father, but a father nonetheless (like the father I call dad - and all the fathers leading back to Adam, with Adam being the father of us all).

We are told that many things happened in preparation for our coming to earth. I don't know at what point we entered our second estate, but our second estate does not take away from our first estate. It adds to it. Elohim is our Father. Adding Adam as our father does not take away from that.

A lot of the details are likely outside of our ability to comprehend, and dealing with things we aren't able to consider because of the veil.

I am sorry but this is just not what Brigham Young taught. Also, this isn't some semantic argument about whether or not Adam can rightly be called God, or Father, it's about whether he and mother eve created our spirit bodies and whether he is the literal father of Jesus Christ, in the way that Mary was his literal mother.

[JLHPROF]

Brigham Young said that Moses was a god to Israel.

 

Heads of dispnsations always are.  Joseph is a god to us (although many hate that notion).

When speaking about Moses or Adam being a god, Brigham did not capitalize the word, but his remarks were transcribed and published with punctuation and capitalization added by others.

 

Utter nonsense.  "When speaking Brigham didn't capitalize".  How on earth can you make such a claim that you can tell from a spoken discourse whether God should be capitalized?

Young never said that we should worship Adam or pray to Adam or any such thing.

 

"HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do"  - Brigham Young

Young did not claim that Adam was Heavenly Father. Young did claim that Adam was Michael.

 

"Adam was an immortal being when he came on this earth; He had lived on an earth similar to ours; he had received the Priesthood and the keys thereof, and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation, and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness, and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth." - Lecture at the Veil

Michael means, "like God."

 

Ok.

Heavenly Father lives in the Celestial Kingdom. He does not live in the telestial world.

 

At the time of creation the earth was Terrestrial, not Telestial.  Adam was immortal (resurrected).  Giving up his resurrected exalted glory is shown in scripture and in the temple.  Giving up the Celestial and coming to the Terrestrial earth and becoming a Telestial (fallen) being was his great sacrifice for his children.

Adam was given keys over the telestial world and it evidently is under his stewardship - which explains why he was the one who brought lucifer here.

 

CFR - utter nonsense.  Adam didn't "bring" Lucifer here, the world wasn't Telestial at the time, and the world will be under his stewardship when it becomes Celestialized too.

We are in a telestial world, it is the only world we are in, although we have visitors and the light of Christ and the Holy Ghost, we are in a telestial world. It is the only world with which we have to do until we return to the spirit world. Our business is here Adam is our father on the earth, a lesser father than Heavenly Father, but a father nonetheless (like the father I call dad - and all the fathers leading back to Adam, with Adam being the father of us all)

 

Ok, #1 - The spirit world IS on the earth too.  #2 - At Adam-Ondi-Ahman all the priesthood heads throughout history will turn all their keys to Adam who will then bestow Christ's inheritance upon him.  That should tell us exactly who Adam is.

We are told that many things happened in preparation for our coming to earth. I don't know at what point we entered our second estate, but our second estate does not take away from our first estate. It adds to it. Elohim is our Father. Adding Adam as our father does not take away from that.

We enter our second estate when we come to earth.  And Adam IS a member of the Eloheim.  As is Jehovah.  And following the resurrection so will Christ and all his joint heirs become part of the Eloheim.

A lot of the details are likely outside of our ability to comprehend, and dealing with things we aren't able to consider because of the veil.

True, but that doesn't stop us from studying the teachings of the prophets that they claim by revelation.

 

Sorry, but this is just not an accurate refutation of the Adam-God teachings.  This contains a lot of assumptions not borne out in scripture, the temple, or the teachings of the prophets.  Brigham taught what he taught, clearly and simply.  Explaining it away just doesn't work.  Disagree with him if you like, but he taught what he taught according to the revelation he claimed to receive.

Edited January 23, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Hillel2]

Sorry, but this is just not an accurate refutation of the Adam-God teachings.  This contains a lot of assumptions not borne out in scripture, the temple, or the teachings of the prophets.  Brigham taught what he taught, clearly and simply.  Explaining it away just doesn't work.  Disagree with him if you like, but he taught what he taught according to the revelation he claimed to receive.

Hello. I apologize if this question may have been covered here but Your response brought to my mind another question i have on Adam-G-d theory and that regards the figure of Satan.

 

How does Satan/Lucifer/the Devil fit into Your model of the Heavenly and Terrestrial Trinities? Is he a spirit child of Michael/Adam/Heavenly Father or is he the Brother of YHWH/Jehovah from an earlier iteration?

 

One of the things i've always found confusing about AGtheory as i've been exposed to it is this question. To me, it seems strange that Michael/Adam/Future Heavenly Father could be deceived by one of his own spirit children. In geneological terms it seems more logical to posit that he was an uncle to Adam or even a great uncle depending on how far up the line one wishes to go. What do You think?

[Hillel2]

Sorry, but this is just not an accurate refutation of the Adam-God teachings.  This contains a lot of assumptions not borne out in scripture, the temple, or the teachings of the prophets.  Brigham taught what he taught, clearly and simply.  Explaining it away just doesn't work.  Disagree with him if you like, but he taught what he taught according to the revelation he claimed to receive.

Sorry. I had another question related to the first for You. Since in AG theory, Elokim, YHWH/Jehovah, Michael/Adam/Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all conceptualized as distinct personages in a geneological line of descent, has the same concept emerged with regard to Satan/Lucifer/and the Devil? I.E. Could these names refer to separate anti-divine beings in complementary distribution with the model of the two trinities? Have You encountered such notions among AG believers or have you ever considered the possibility, I'm very interested in how all these notions hang together and would like to understand the harmony that so many AG subscribers believe they perceive. Thank You.

[Rivers]

Hello. I apologize if this question may have been covered here but Your response brought to my mind another question i have on Adam-G-d theory and that regards the figure of Satan.

How does Satan/Lucifer/the Devil fit into Your model of the Heavenly and Terrestrial Trinities? Is he a spirit child of Michael/Adam/Heavenly Father or is he the Brother of YHWH/Jehovah from an earlier iteration?

One of the things i've always found confusing about AGtheory as i've been exposed to it is this question. To me, it seems strange that Michael/Adam/Future Heavenly Father could be deceived by one of his own spirit children. In geneological terms it seems more logical to posit that he was an uncle to Adam or even a great uncle depending on how far up the line one wishes to go. What do You think?

I don't see anything wrong with Adam being deceived by his own son if he lost his memory like the rest of us. Or did he lose his memory before the fall?

[K-2]

I just chock that one up as a poor representation of what Brigham said, but there is a lot of truth in it.

From the official account of the same Oct. 8, 1854 Conference address by Brigham Young: "I tell you, when you see your Father in the heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bears your spirit, you will see mother Eve. And when you see yourselves there, you have gained your exaltation."

Was Brigham coincidentally poorly represented by multiple people?

From the Thomas D. Brown account: "Adam and Eve had children in the spirit, and their children married, brother and sister, then the bodies followed."

From the Joseph Lee Robinson account: "President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized and that Adam and Eve were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that receives tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brother and sisters, and that Adam was God, our Eternal Father."

From the Warren Foote account: "President B. Young delivered an interesting discourse concerning Adam's being the father of our spirits as well as bodies."

[K-2]

Hillel2, the serpent tells Eve, "I am your brother." Moses 4:7 says of Lucifer, "And he spake by the mouth of the serpent." So I figure the serpent was a son of perdition from Adam's old world where he used to live, who was possessed by Lucifer's spirit. "Ha nachash," if used as an adjective, could be translated as "the shining one" rather than as "the serpent."