Adam God Theory

[Ahab]

The event of a spirit entering a mortal body is NOT the birth of the spirt. That's not the point where the spirit was "begat".

You're not thiiiiinkinnnnng enough about this.

When we (our spirits) are born into a mortal body, what is being born into that body?

Adam and Eve are the primary people responsible for begatting us (our spirits) into mortal bodies on this earth.

You seem to keep thinking that the only thing they begat was a mortal body, but our spirits are a part of these things, and they begat us both spirit and mortal body combined.

I don't know how to makw it more clear than that. Maybe you should try to imagine yourself as only a spirit being told that you were going to be born through Adam and Eve.

"They're going to beget me?"

"Yes, they're going to beget you."

"You are going to be begat through Adam and Eve."

And voila, here you are now.

[ERayR]

The Lecture at the Veil statement reads pretty clear that Adam & Eve bore/begat our SPIRITS that would eventually come to earth.  I see no other reading of that that doesn't make Adam & Eve our Heavenly Father and Mother (the ones that created our spirit bodies).  

 

People can call that false doctrine, misquoted, whatever, and I can at least understand those arguments even if I don't believe them.  But Ahab seems to be saying that the Lecture on the Veil is not false doctrine, is in harmony with current church teachings, but just misunderstood and Adam & Eve are not Heavenly Father and Mother.  

 

I have yet to see how he reads the Lecture on the Veil statement to harmonize it.  How do Adam & Eve beget our SPIRITS in a pre-mortal realm and not be considered Heavenly Father and Mother?  

 

IMNSHO it can't be done. 

[Brian 2.0]

IMNSHO it can't be done.

IMNSHO you are correct.

[K-2]

Ahab, here's a quote for you. It's from John Pulsipher's account of Brigham Young's October 8, 1854 talk in General Conference:

"Our God who is Adam came [to Earth] and commenced the peopling of it. Though he is God, and had lived and died and been resurrected on some other planet, and obtained his exaltation and begat the spirits of children enough to people this world. He came down and brought some of the animal and vegetable productions of some other world so that they might grow and increase here. He by eating the mortal fruits of the Earth, it caused and produced mortal children or commenced the increase of men on the Earth which is the bodies for the spirits to live in. There never was a time when worlds were not created. The work of creation was always in progress. An Adam and Eve is necessary for every world. The oldest son, if faithful, is the savior of the family. There are Lords many and Gods many, but the God that we have to account to is the father of our Spirits - Adam."

Edited January 22, 2015 by K-2

[ERayR]

IMNSHO you are correct.

 

And that is the "Adam God Doctrine.

 

Ahab, here's a quote for you. It's from John Pulsipher's account of Brigham Young's October 8, 1854 talk in General Conference:

"Our God who is Adam came [to Earth] and commenced the peopling of it. Though he is God, and had lived and died and been resurrected on some other planet, and obtained his exaltation and begat the spirits of children enough to people this world. He came down and brought some of the animal and vegetable productions of some other world so that they might grow and increase here. He by eating the mortal fruits of the Earth, it caused and produced mortal children or commenced the increase of men on the Earth which is the bodies for the spirits to live in. There never was a time when worlds were not created. The work of creation was always in progress. An Adam and Eve is necessary for every world. The oldest son, if faithful, is the savior of the family. There are Lords many and Gods many, but the God that we have to account to is the father of our Spirits - Adam."

[Ahab]

Ahab, here's a quote for you. It's from John Pulsipher's account of Brigham Young's October 8, 1854 talk in General Conference:

"Our God who is Adam came [to Earth] and commenced the peopling of it. Though he is God, and had lived and died and been resurrected on some other planet, and obtained his exaltation and begat the spirits of children enough to people this world. He came down and brought some of the animal and vegetable productions of some other world so that they might grow and increase here. He by eating the mortal fruits of the Earth, it caused and produced mortal children or commenced the increase of men on the Earth which is the bodies for the spirits to live in. There never was a time when worlds were not created. The work of creation was always in progress. An Adam and Eve is necessary for every world. The oldest son, if faithful, is the savior of the family. There are Lords many and Gods many, but the God that we have to account to is the father of our Spirits - Adam."

I just chock that one up as a poor representation of what Brigham said, but there is a lot of truth in it.

[Ahab]

IMNSHO you are correct.

In My (your) Not So Honest Opinion?

Is that what that stands for?

Well, IMSHO you just don't understand what I have already explained.

And by that I mean In My Sincere Honest Opinion.

[JLHPROF]

Hasn’t this been beat to death, Brigham Young got it wrong so what! put it to bed and let's move on!

 

Uh, no.  Brigham got it right (or at least claimed revelation on the subject).  It is those that followed who disagreed with the revelation without any additional revelatory light to justify their position who got it wrong.

[Brian 2.0]

You're not thiiiiinkinnnnng enough about this.

When we (our spirits) are born into a mortal body, what is being born into that body?

Adam and Eve are the primary people responsible for begatting us (our spirits) into mortal bodies on this earth.

You seem to keep thinking that the only thing they begat was a mortal body, but our spirits are a part of these things, and they begat us both spirit and mortal body combined.

I don't know how to makw it more clear than that. Maybe you should try to imagine yourself as only a spirit being told that you were going to be born through Adam and Eve.

"They're going to beget me?"

"Yes, they're going to beget you."

"You are going to be begat through Adam and Eve."

And voila, here you are now.

So by your logic it is accuarte to say and in harmony with current church doctrine that....

My earthly father Kurt begat my spirit and the spirits of my siblings.

And that my grandmother Ruth bore my spirit and the spirits of all my cousins in the celestial world.

Those statements are in harmony with current church doctrine, right? (According to your definitions)

[JLHPROF]

 Adam God teachings seem to be dependent upon the Gods Elohiem and Jehovah and the man/god Adam being part of one continuous creation narrative. According to the DH, genesis has two separate creation stories growing out of two separate traditions about two different Gods that were later stitched together in the name of monotheism. I am wondering if either of you Adam God-ers have wrestled with this before. If so, do you find the DH to be more compatible with Adam God teachings than our current Jehovah doctrine or less compatible? And how?

 

My personal opinion is that the two differing "creation" stories that were melded together are actually the spiritual creation and the physical creation.

The temple is very, very clear about the members of the Godhead involved in creating this earth.

 

I am unfamiliar with the "DH", but I find Adam-God teachings on Jehovah make far more sense than our current Jehovah = Christ teaching.  And when I view the origins of the two varying teachings, I am even more convinced.

 

If this thread has taught me anything, it is that there are a larger number of Church members who believe in variations of Adam-God than I would have thought.  Just on this board alone we have probably a half dozen who believe some form of Adam-God over the current teachings of the Church.  If we were compare that to general Church membership there are probably thousands who accept Adam-God.

I don't expect people to believe or accept the doctrine, but it would be nice if we could get rid of the incorrect explanations in the same way we are doing with plural marriage.

[Calm]

And as far as content owners, Mormon Research Ministry strikes me as a few pegs down from 'Critical, well reasoned, and professional outlet I respect even though I disagree with their conclusions.'  I don't know that that makes them 'anti-Mormon,' though...

 

Just to refresh your memory or if you are not aware of it, MRM are the guys that collect a bunch of youngens and bus into the Manti pageant to witness to the poor folks there so that they won't be seduced by the romance and drama of it all….and their main production is having 34 women, including a young looking 14 year old holding a big teddy bear to be sure it was noticed (I am assuming that they are at least honest enough to have her the right age even if they went for a less delevoped girl than Helen likely was as she described herself as looking old for her age) dress up as Joseph Smith's wives.  The first year or so, they would have them all go to the bathrooms at the same time to cause a scene and they got banned from using them iirc.  And they offer links to secretly filmed temple videos, claim we are taught to systematically lie for the Lord and the usual anti stuff, so yes they most definitely qualify as anti-mormon in all the standard ways.

Edited January 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[Ahab]

So by your logic it is accuarte to say and in harmony with current church doctrine that....

My earthly father Kurt begat my spirit and the spirits of my siblings.

Yes, he begat your spirit and your mortal body combined.

And that my grandmother Ruth bore my spirit and the spirits of all my cousins in the celestial world.

...[that were] in the celestial world, yes.

That is what I was trying to make more clear before. And her indirectly, but still through her.

Those statements are in harmony with current church doctrine, right? (According to your definitions)

Right.

[JLHPROF]

Just to refresh your memory or if you are not aware of it, MRM are the guys that collect a bunch of youngens and bus into the Manti pageant to witness to the poor folks there so that they won't be seduced by the romance and drama of it all….and their main production is having 34 women, including a young looking 14 year old holding a big teddy bear to be sure it was noticed (I am assuming that they are at least honest enough to have her the right age even if they went for a less delevoped girl than Helen likely was as she described herself as looking old for her age) dress up as Joseph Smith's wives.  The first year or so, they would have them all go to the bathrooms at the same time to cause a scene and they got banned from using them iirc.  And they offer links to secretly filmed temple videos, claim we are taught to systematically lie for the Lord and the usual anti stuff, so yes they most definitely qualify as anti-mormon in all the standard ways.

 

I would agree that MRM ARE an anti organization.  But the site I provided a link to from MRM is not anti in my opinion since it contains nothing but historical quotes.  There is no anti spin placed on any of them.  They are just quotes.

Now I'm sure MRM has plenty of anti innuendo to say concerning Adam-God, but that doesn't appear to be the purpose of adamgod.com.

Edited January 22, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

Yes, he begat your spirit and your mortal body combined.

...[that were] in the celestial world, yes.

That is what I was trying to make more clear before. And her indirectly, but still through her.

Right.

 

Nope.  Not the same as Adam-God.

Edited January 22, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

I would agree that MRM ARE an anti organization.  But the site I provided a link to from MRM is not anti in my opinion since it contains nothing but historical quotes.  There is no anti spin placed on any of them.  They are just quotes.

Now I'm sure MRM has plenty of anti innuendo to say concerning Adam-God, but that doesn't appear to be the purpose of adamgod.com.

You don't think attempting to appear neutral and then having links to anti sites in order to draw people to them is not anti?

 

 it contains nothing but historical quotes.  There is no anti spin placed on any of them.

 

Not quite, the top quotes posted are not historical quotes at all, but commentary on the teaching, including a link to another antisite's page on Adam God, to a random conversation that just happens to mention the topic as an aside as far as I can see.

 

And the bottom of the page includes links to anti sites.

 

You need to pay more attention to what you are linking to.

Edited January 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

Nope.  Not the same as Adam-God.

 

A hundred truths used to support a single lie is still a lie.

[ERayR]

A hundred truths used to support a single lie is still a lie.

 

Huh.

[Brian 2.0]

Yes, he begat your spirit and your mortal body combined.

...[that were] in the celestial world, yes.

That is what I was trying to make more clear before. And her indirectly, but still through her.

Right.

So how do you differentiate between that and the actual "Father of our spirits". What criteria separates Heavenly Father out as the actual person who "bore our spirits" for the first time?

Your model has my entire genealogical line back to Adam and Eve as acceptable people to say they begat/bore my spirit.

Why can't Heavenly Father simply be yet another in that line, and he "bore my spirit" only into the sense that he brought it into a special pre-mortal realm but that my spirit body (not just intelligences) existed before Heavenly Father came along?

[JLHPROF]

A hundred truths used to support a single lie is still a lie.

 

And a truth is a truth, even if only one man accepts it.  At least, that's what Joseph taught.

[JLHPROF]

You don't think attempting to appear neutral and then having links to anti sites in order to draw people to them is not anti?

 

Not quite, the top quotes posted are not historical quotes at all, but commentary on the teaching, including a link to another antisite's page on Adam God, to a random conversation that just happens to mention the topic as an aside as far as I can see.

 

And the bottom of the page includes links to anti sites.

 

You need to pay more attention to what you are linking to.

 

Fair enough.  I still maintain the site is pretty harmless, but if it's linking to actual anti-Church materials then it should rightly be labeled anti.

I guess I just use it for the quotes and ignore the rest.  Brigham taught Adam-God in well over a dozen discourses.  It's nice to have them listed and chronological for easy access.

But my apologies for linking to an anti-site.  I usually avoid them.

[cinepro]

I would agree that MRM ARE an anti organization.  But the site I provided a link to from MRM is not anti in my opinion since it contains nothing but historical quotes.  There is no anti spin placed on any of them.  They are just quotes.

Now I'm sure MRM has plenty of anti innuendo to say concerning Adam-God, but that doesn't appear to be the purpose of adamgod.com.

 

When it comes to Adam-God, the "antis" don't need to spin the quotes.  To a protestant (and some LDS), they're shocking enough as they are.

[Ahab]

Nope. Not the same as Adam-God.

Yes it is, just not your understanding of it.

[ERayR]

When it comes to Adam-God, the "antis" don't need to spin the quotes.  To a protestant (and some LDS), they're shocking enough as they are.

 

And?  Does God never shock us? 

[Ahab]

So how do you differentiate between that and the actual "Father of our spirits". What criteria separates Heavenly Father out as the actual person who "bore our spirits" for the first time?

Your model has my entire genealogical line back to Adam and Eve as acceptable people to say they begat/bore my spirit.

Why can't Heavenly Father simply be yet another in that line, and he "bore my spirit" only into the sense that he brought it into a special pre-mortal realm but that my spirit body (not just intelligences) existed before Heavenly Father came along?

My point was mainly to point out that our spirits we're begotten through Adam and Eve, including Jesus through Mary, too. That all of us, including Jesus, have Adam as our Father and Eve as our Mother. And that all of our spirits were in the celestial world we lived in before we came here.

You can add to that as much other detail as you want and I won't contest it, as long as it's true. And just so you know that I know, we can trace our lineage back forever and ever and see that we have always been the same kind of being as the person we refer to as our Eternal Father.

[thesometimesaint]

And a truth is a truth, even if only one man accepts it.  At least, that's what Joseph taught.

 

Truth is truth no matter how many accept it. The earth was still round like a ball when the Bible declared it to be flat.