Adam God Theory

[JLHPROF]

Hello. I apologize if this question may have been covered here but Your response brought to my mind another question i have on Adam-G-d theory and that regards the figure of Satan.

 

How does Satan/Lucifer/the Devil fit into Your model of the Heavenly and Terrestrial Trinities? Is he a spirit child of Michael/Adam/Heavenly Father or is he the Brother of YHWH/Jehovah from an earlier iteration?

 

One of the things i've always found confusing about AGtheory as i've been exposed to it is this question. To me, it seems strange that Michael/Adam/Future Heavenly Father could be deceived by one of his own spirit children. In geneological terms it seems more logical to posit that he was an uncle to Adam or even a great uncle depending on how far up the line one wishes to go. What do You think?

 

I don't see anything wrong with Adam being deceived by his own son if he lost his memory like the rest of us. Or did he lose his memory before the fall?

 

Part of the Adam-God doctrine is that there was no deceit (as we would term it).  The partaking of the fruit was a transgression of law, but one that was always going to happen.  Without it the entire plan of salvation would have been unnecessary and God's work thwarted.  The veil wasn't drawn across Adam's memory until after the fall, in fact it was a direct result of the fall.  Prior to that Adam walked and talked with his God (Jehovah) face to face.

 

Adam and Eve were always going to partake of the fruit.  They weren't tricked into it.

 

  Moses 5:11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

 

No partaking of the fruit:

1. No children (and so no physical bodies for us)

2. No agency (ability to choose good and evil)

3. No redemption (no need for a Savior)

4. No eternal life (an end to God's work and glory)

 

No, in my opinion Eloheim and Jehovah followed the consequences of Michael/Adam's trasngressing of eternal law by requiring the Saviors redemption to pay the price for the transgression.  SInce we know of the war in heaven and the council wherein Christ was selected, and we know they occurred before the fall, it is simply common sense to realize the fall was the plan.

 

As for the serpent/Lucifer "tricking" Adam and Eve into the fall - I don't believe he deceived them at all (see the temple), but he did need the fall to happen so that our physical flesh could be subject to his temptations.  Without the fall Lucifer's work would also have been thwarted.

 

Such an amazingly beautiful doctrine. And it's all represented perfectly in the temple.

[iamse7en]

How does Satan/Lucifer/the Devil fit into Your model of the Heavenly and Terrestrial Trinities? Is he a spirit child of Michael/Adam/Heavenly Father or is he the Brother of YHWH/Jehovah from an earlier iteration?

 

One of the things i've always found confusing about AGtheory as i've been exposed to it is this question. To me, it seems strange that Michael/Adam/Future Heavenly Father could be deceived by one of his own spirit children. In geneological terms it seems more logical to posit that he was an uncle to Adam or even a great uncle depending on how far up the line one wishes to go. What do You think?

 

Any explicit statements on who our tempter is show he is a son of Adam or Heavenly Father or a brother of the chosen one. And remember the story you read in the Bible has allegorical properties and shouldn't be taken literally.

 

You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding. ... I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child.  (BY, JD 2:6, 10/23/1853)

 

Brigham is pretty explicit in this statement on the mindset of the heavenly parents (they knew what they were doing):

 

[Brigham setting up the hypothetical of when you become a god and how mortality begins on each earth:] You call your spiritual children together and hold a council with them; and in the contemplation of a new earth, a savior must be provided. You call for volunteers, there may be a number of bright sons reply. It is your right to choose the one dearest to your own heart, he being worthy of the position. Another among the volunteers may become offended, and rebel against the plan, and lead many away with him. The chosen one is ordained to his calling, a calling in the Priesthood, and placed in full charge of the organization of the new earth, its redemption and sanctification. Thus the faithful son becomes the creator and redeemer of the new world, Grandfather remaining the highest authority, Architect and Chief Commander, while you, the Father, remain in reserve for other important duties, and thus the six days of creation go on and the earth is finished and is indeed glorious and beautiful. ...

Now comes the morning of the new week in which mortality must begin, and your spiritual children must be introduced into mortality.  Two must go before them and prepare the way for them.  Whom will you send?  Would you not say to [your] wife, "Come, Mother, let you and I lay aside our Celestial glory for a little season and eat of the elements of this new earth. that we may again become of the earth earthy, and thereby our offspring will be mortal, and thus we will begin the begetting of mortal bodies for these, our spiritual children; and when they have grown to maturity in their mortal estate, we will command them to multiply and replenish the earth. We have passed through earth life, death and the resurrection. We have power to lay aside this Celestial Glory and we have power to take it up again."

To which she, a faithful Mother, will reply:  "Yes, we will partake of the elements of this new earth.  We will make this sacrifice for our spiritual children that they also may continue on in the law of everlasting progression and become like unto us, for as the Gods are, some may become."(Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff Journal, 1/27/1860)

 

Sin is upon every earth that was ever created. ... Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter (BY, JD 14:71-72, 7/10/1870)

 

The Adam-God doctrine actually crystallizes answers to many questions I had growing up about gods, saviors, devils, and earths.

Edited January 23, 2015 by iamse7en

[JLHPROF]

Sorry. I had another question related to the first for You. Since in AG theory, Elokim, YHWH/Jehovah, Michael/Adam/Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all conceptualized as distinct personages in a geneological line of descent, has the same concept emerged with regard to Satan/Lucifer/and the Devil? I.E. Could these names refer to separate anti-divine beings in complementary distribution with the model of the two trinities? Have You encountered such notions among AG believers or have you ever considered the possibility, I'm very interested in how all these notions hang together and would like to understand the harmony that so many AG subscribers believe they perceive. Thank You.

 

I have never considered the possibility (or even heard of) an adversarial trinity.  It makes sense but would be 100% speculation.  But I think that Satan/Lucifer/The Devil are all the same person, unlike Eloheim, Jehovah and MIchael.

 

 

Hillel2, the serpent tells Eve, "I am your brother." Moses 4:7 says of Lucifer, "And he spake by the mouth of the serpent." So I figure the serpent was a son of perdition from Adam's old world where he used to live, who was possessed by Lucifer's spirit. "Ha nachash," if used as an adjective, could be translated as "the shining one" rather than as "the serpent."

 

This I have heard before, but it makes absolutely no sense considering the war in heaven.  Why would a son of perdition from Adam's old world be 1. One of the noble and great ones, 2. Allowed to propose he take the place of Christ  3. Be in God's presence at all?

 

I have heard this theory but I am convinced it is false and that Lucifer was of Christ's spiritual generation, not Michael's.

[K-2]

I'm saying that Lucifer, as a spirit son of Adam, was demon-possessing the body of a brother of Adam from the former world. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

[Ahab]

From the official account of the same Oct. 8, 1854 Conference address by Brigham Young: "I tell you, when you see your Father in the heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bears your spirit, you will see mother Eve. And when you see yourselves there, you have gained your exaltation."

Was Brigham coincidentally poorly represented by multiple people?

From the Thomas D. Brown account: "Adam and Eve had children in the spirit, and their children married, brother and sister, then the bodies followed."

From the Joseph Lee Robinson account: "President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized and that Adam and Eve were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that receives tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brother and sisters, and that Adam was God, our Eternal Father."

From the Warren Foote account: "President B. Young delivered an interesting discourse concerning Adam's being the father of our spirits as well as bodies."

I said poorly represented, but that there is a lot of truth in it. And yes many other people, including others who spoke as prophets of God, poorly represented the whole truth, with nothing but thw truth, on these issues.

Overall I would still say we still don't know very much about all of this. I'm looking for and still waiting for more light and truth from my Fathers about... well, I surely don't know everything there is to know about where babies come from, and what babies are, do I? Or do I???

[JLHPROF]

I'm saying that Lucifer, as a spirit son of Adam, was demon-possessing the body of a brother of Adam from the former world. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

 

Whoa...

[Lachoneus]

 

Brigham is pretty explicit in this statement on the mindset of the heavenly parents (they knew what they were doing):

 

    [brigham setting up the hypothetical of when you become a god and how mortality begins on each earth:] You call your spiritual children together and hold a council with them; and in the contemplation of a new earth, a savior must be provided. You call for volunteers, there may be a number of bright sons reply. It is your right to choose the one dearest to your own heart, he being worthy of the position. Another among the volunteers may become offended, and rebel against the plan, and lead many away with him. The chosen one is ordained to his calling, a calling in the Priesthood, and placed in full charge of the organization of the new earth, its redemption and sanctification. Thus the faithful son becomes the creator and redeemer of the new world, Grandfather remaining the highest authority, Architect and Chief Commander, while you, the Father, remain in reserve for other important duties, and thus the six days of creation go on and the earth is finished and is indeed glorious and beautiful. ...

    Now comes the morning of the new week in which mortality must begin, and your spiritual children must be introduced into mortality.  Two must go before them and prepare the way for them.  Whom will you send?  Would you not say to [your] wife, "Come, Mother, let you and I lay aside our Celestial glory for a little season and eat of the elements of this new earth. that we may again become of the earth earthy, and thereby our offspring will be mortal, and thus we will begin the begetting of mortal bodies for these, our spiritual children; and when they have grown to maturity in their mortal estate, we will command them to multiply and replenish the earth. We have passed through earth life, death and the resurrection. We have power to lay aside this Celestial Glory and we have power to take it up again."

    To which she, a faithful Mother, will reply:  "Yes, we will partake of the elements of this new earth.  We will make this sacrifice for our spiritual children that they also may continue on in the law of everlasting progression and become like unto us, for as the Gods are, some may become."(Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff Journal, 1/27/1860)

 

This is not written in Wilford Woodruff's Journal for 27 January 1860.

 

CFR that Brigham Young said this.

[Rivers]

So in the Adam God doctrine, who exactly is referenced when we refer to The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Is it Adam, Christ, and Holy Ghost?

Edited January 23, 2015 by Rivers

[JLHPROF]

So in the Adam God doctrine, who exactly is referenced when we refer to The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Is it Adam, Christ, and Holy Ghost?

 

It depends...if you are talking this post-fall world it is Adam/Christ/Holy Ghost.

If you are talking the creation then the temple shows it to be Eloheim/Jehovah/Michael (all resurrected beings).

[Ahab]

So in the Adam God doctrine, who exactly is referenced when we refer to The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Is it Adam, Christ, and Holy Ghost?

Different people think of different things as the Adam-God doctrine. Not everyone agrees on what is being referred to.

When I think of the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" I usually think of the Father of Adam who is also the Father of Jesus Christ, with the Son as Jesus Christ (although I know the Father of Adam also has other sons, including all of the males on this earth), and the Holy Ghost as another son of the Father of Adam. (other than Jesus Christ, I mean).

Whether or not YOU consider that to be part of the Adam-God doctrine is up to you, and you can if you want to.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Ahab

[Rivers]

It depends...if you are talking this post-fall world it is Adam/Christ/Holy Ghost.

If you are talking the creation then the temple shows it to be Eloheim/Jehovah/Michael (all resurrected beings).

I see. Very interesting. And Michael and Jehovah are brothers in the pre-fall world?

[JLHPROF]

This is not written in Wilford Woodruff's Journal for 27 January 1860.

 

CFR that Brigham Young said this.

 

The reference is wrong...it is from a document called "Man, Know Thyself" that was in the possession of Lundwall.  As a proof for Adam-God this one doesn't connect to Brigham.  But there are plenty that do.

[JLHPROF]

I see. Very interesting. And Michael and Jehovah are brothers in the pre-fall world?

 

Also not clear.  Theory one says Jehovah was Michael's Savior, making them Brothers.  Theory two says Michael was the Savior of his world and Jehovah was his Heavenly Father making them Father/Son.  I don't believe either theory has enough revelatory or prophetic backing to draw an absolute conclusion and is part of the speculative side of Adam-God.

 

Adam-God is very clearly taught by Brigham and in the temple.  But there is SO much speculation beyond the basic doctrine that has snuck in it is a challenge to separate the doctrine from the speculation.  They are frequently presented together and in my opinion are one of the primary reasons the prophets decided that Adam-God should no longer be taught - not becuase the revelation was wrong, but because we keep adding to it inappropriately.

[K-2]

Adam forgot all and became as a little child BEFORE the fall. Our physical bodies are the veil. When he ate food from the earth it caused this to happen.

[K-2]

Brigham Young referred to Elohim as the Grandfather, by the way, which would support what you call "theory one," JLHPROF.

[JLHPROF]

Adam forgot all and became as a little child BEFORE the fall. Our physical bodies are the veil. When he ate food from the earth it caused this to happen.

 

Eating the food of the earth and gaining a physical body WAS the fall.  The veil of forgetfullness came as a result of the fall, not while he was still immortal.

[Bobbieaware]

Eating the food of the earth and gaining a physical body WAS the fall.  The veil of forgetfullness came as a result of the fall, not while he was still immortal.

Not according to the temple narrative.

[K-2]

Yeah, they had forgotten all, well before eating the "fruit."

[Bobbieaware]

Yeah, they had forgotten all, well before eating the "fruit."

For the sake of accuracy, In the narrative, I believe it is only Adam who forgets all.

[Rivers]

Why would Adam be walking around naked if he remembered everything?

[Rivers]

Delete

Edited January 24, 2015 by Rivers

[Coreyb]

Hello. I apologize if this question may have been covered here but Your response brought to my mind another question i have on Adam-G-d theory and that regards the figure of Satan.

 

How does Satan/Lucifer/the Devil fit into Your model of the Heavenly and Terrestrial Trinities? Is he a spirit child of Michael/Adam/Heavenly Father or is he the Brother of YHWH/Jehovah from an earlier iteration?

 

One of the things i've always found confusing about AGtheory as i've been exposed to it is this question. To me, it seems strange that Michael/Adam/Future Heavenly Father could be deceived by one of his own spirit children. In geneological terms it seems more logical to posit that he was an uncle to Adam or even a great uncle depending on how far up the line one wishes to go. What do You think?

I seem to remember having read an old myth about how after El had created the man Adam, he commanded his sons to bow down and worship him. The leader of the sons, as well as many others refused, believing it to be below them because they were already holy and godlike, and Adam was mortal. This resulted in them being cast out and becoming devils. Does that ring any bells for anyone who knows more pseudepigrapha than me?

[K-2]

If you pay close attention to what Eve says to Lucifer, you can see that she forgets all as well as Adam.

[Bobbieaware]

Yeah, they had forgotten all, well before eating the "fruit."

I'm just stating the facts as I know them. But I must admit I have always found it perplexing that, according to the same narrative, Adam forgets all BEFORE the fall. I say I find it perplexing because it seems logical and consistent with the scriptures, and reason, to believe that the vail of forgetfulness would only be drawn by reason of the fall, when Adam experienced spiritual death and estrangement from God.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Brian 2.0]

I'm just stating the facts as I know them. But I must admit I have always found it perplexing that, according to the same narrative, Adam forgets all BEFORE the fall. I say I find it perplexing because it seems logical and consistent with the scriptures, and reason, to believe that the vail of forgetfulness would only be drawn by reason of the fall, when Adam experienced spiritual death and estrangement from God.

 

Adam seemed he was well aware of his fall and what happened in the garden after he was cast out.  If the veil happened at the fall what would he know? His first memory would be getting kicked out of a cool garden by some God.  He would be getting accused of doing something he didn't remember doing.  He would be building and alter and asking forgiveness for something he didn't even remember doing, and didn't remember being told not to do.  

 

I find that way perplexing.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Brian 2.0