Is The Kind Of Life God Lives The "best"?

[Brian 2.0]

I had a thought in the "exaltation for gays" thread that was separate enough that I'd thought I'd start this.

 

Under Mormon theology exaltation is the ultimate goal, and while I'm sure there is plenty of variation on how people would live in exaltation, there are some things that exaltation entails, but ultimately it's "the kind of life God lives" according to lds.org.

 

As I've gotten older I've realized that what makes one person happy may not necessarily be the same thing that make someone else happy.  Staying home and raising children brought my mom immense joy and she wouldn't have had it any other way... but that's not my wife.  She loves our kids, but being the stay at home mom just isn't the path that brings her the most joy in life.  The same can be said of nearly everything in life, even in the decision to have kids. 

 

Why is "the kind of life God lives" the end goal?  What if my choice of heaven is not the same as what God does?  

 

I know many will say, "if you aren't comfortable exalted, then you won't be and you'll be in other kingdom or doing something else, etc"  but that kind of talk still has exaltation as "above" the other choices.  Exaltation is still the "best" or at least the preferred place God would like us to be since in other kingdoms we can't even be with Him!

 

So if there is so much variation in personal life choices in what constitutes joy and fulfillment, why would it be different in the eternities?  What if someone desires and is worthy of exaltation but doesn't prefer "the kind of life God lives"?

[JLHPROF]

So if there is so much variation in personal life choices in what constitutes joy and fulfillment, why would it be different in the eternities?  What if someone desires and is worthy of exaltation but doesn't prefer "the kind of life God lives"?

 

"A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race."

- Joseph Smith

 

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."  I John 4:8

 

"For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."  Moses 1:39

 

When exaltation is achieved we will be so full of love, just as God is full of love, that our desire will be to bless others above ANY other preferences.  Our desire will become just the same as God's - to bring eternal life to man, because of the love that will fill us.

The person who achieves this level of purification and sanctification won't find "fulfillment" in another option - it is the very reason for existence.

[pogi]

The hope is in eternal sealings, with added light, truth and knowledge.  Mo' is betta! 

[Rivers]

"A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race."

- Joseph Smith

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." I John 4:8

"For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Moses 1:39

When exaltation is achieved we will be so full of love, just as God is full of love, that our desire will be to bless others above ANY other preferences. Our desire will become just the same as God's - to bring eternal life to man, because of the love that will fill us.

The person who achieves this level of purification and sanctification won't find "fulfillment" in another option - it is the very reason for existence.

Along with all that love comes a lot of sorrow. Imagine all the pain and suffering in the world that God must weep over.

[mfbukowski]

Well there are a couple of ways to see this.

 

One is the faithful LDS view, and that is that God is the definer and creator of our idea of Good, so to live a good life is to live the kind of life he lives.

 

A related way of saying it, in a secular way, is that humanity has defined its view of "God" as being our Ideal Being- the Form of what it is to be the best human we can imagine.

 

Or we can take an evolutionary perspective, adding that to the secular view above, and that would include the idea that our concept of God is what we need to believe in to produce the best society which creates the most survival value for humanity.

 

Humans reproduce in families, because babies take forever to develop into independent adults capable of reproduction, and so require support of parents.  So "family values" end up having survival value.  Families operate best in peaceful societies where there is no murder, stealing, adultery, jealousness etc.  So it could be said that the commandments "evolved".  There are many thinkers who think this exactly- that morality evolved.

 

If that is the case, the "best" evolutionary belief is that we become the "best" (evolutionarily) humans we can be, so we honor family values.  We make those values our ideal because those values have survival value.

 

Sol any way you decide to look at it, the BELIEF that we should live like our ideal being- God- has survival value.

 

So by definition, it is the "best" way to live.  It is what is required for us to survive at an optimum level, in peace, raising our babies where they will be safe, well-cared for, and therefore will thrive.

[mfbukowski]

"A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race."

- Joseph Smith

 

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."  I John 4:8

 

"For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."  Moses 1:39

 

When exaltation is achieved we will be so full of love, just as God is full of love, that our desire will be to bless others above ANY other preferences.  Our desire will become just the same as God's - to bring eternal life to man, because of the love that will fill us.

The person who achieves this level of purification and sanctification won't find "fulfillment" in another option - it is the very reason for existence.

AND all these ideas have survival value.

 

Every one of them.  Loving one another makes a nice society where you can raise lots of fat babies who love eachother.

 

That doesn't mean for a moment that God is not behind it all.  He knows what we need.

[mfbukowski]

Along with all that love comes a lot of sorrow. Imagine all the pain and suffering in the world that God must weep over.

Yep, because we do not all live up to the ideal

 

Yet clearly it IS the ideal.  We all feel it in our guts- in our instincts and in our "hearts".  It is what we define as "best" automatically as humans in all cultures.

[CMZ]

There's a lot that can be said on this. My very quick answer will be woefully incomplete but here's a couple quick thoughts:

1. I don't think exalted women will live the life of a "stay-at-home" mom as we know it on earth; as a corollary to that I think a lot of people have incorrect ideas about how moms should be moms here on earth, reading unnecessary drudgery and captivity into it that God never intended
2. D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

I wanna say more. But it's late.

[Robert F. Smith]

................................................  

1. I don't think exalted women will live the life of a "stay-at-home" mom as we know it on earth; as a corollary to that I think a lot of people have incorrect ideas about how moms should be moms here on earth, reading unnecessary drudgery and captivity into it that God never intended
2. D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

.....................................................  

Yes, and to flesh this out we ought to imagine that gods are not hemmed in by conventional, empty restrictions.  For them eternity is infinity and the expression they can bring to exaltation is infinite variety in personality, art, and understanding.  No two gods need express themselves in quite  the same way, and no two creations need be the same -- which is what we already observe in the known universe.  Gods (always a team of two or more) express themselves as the greatest of maestros, composing a figurative music of the spheres, and managing a family of billions or trilliions of embodied intelligences with tenderness, love, and great cunnning -- so as to raise them successfully, with as few casualties as possible.  Yet, of course, they know at the outset that the individuality which they so treasure in their offspring will inevitably lead to rejection of the Plan of Salvation/Plan of Joy by some percentage of those offspring.  The Morning Stars will indeed sing for joy, but not all of them, and we cannot expect them all to come along to the great Feast of Salvation on Mount Tsafon.

 

Know this, however:  A god is never bored.  And no eternal marriage will ever become stale and annoying on the other side.  Even your current, flawed partner will take on an infinity of attractive characteristics in his or her exalted state.  Tempers will no longer flare, and love & joy will overwhelm them both (including the additional partners of polygamous gods).  Those who are bound together by an everlasting covenant of marriage in this life, need no longer sting each other like a pair of scorpions.  We will all be changed into a far better, glorified version of ourselves, and we will be able to search the hearts of our boone companions.

[The Nehor]

One of the advantages of exaltation is restrictions on what you "have to do" to live like God does. God lives a kind of life but our desires are in some ways unique so I will not live the life you would there. Heaven is not Procrustean; my place in heaven will be uniquely mine because it was made for me and I for it.

[ERayR]

I had a thought in the "exaltation for gays" thread that was separate enough that I'd thought I'd start this.

 

Under Mormon theology exaltation is the ultimate goal, and while I'm sure there is plenty of variation on how people would live in exaltation, there are some things that exaltation entails, but ultimately it's "the kind of life God lives" according to lds.org.

 

As I've gotten older I've realized that what makes one person happy may not necessarily be the same thing that make someone else happy.  Staying home and raising children brought my mom immense joy and she wouldn't have had it any other way... but that's not my wife.  She loves our kids, but being the stay at home mom just isn't the path that brings her the most joy in life.  The same can be said of nearly everything in life, even in the decision to have kids. 

 

Why is "the kind of life God lives" the end goal?  What if my choice of heaven is not the same as what God does?  

 

I know many will say, "if you aren't comfortable exalted, then you won't be and you'll be in other kingdom or doing something else, etc"  but that kind of talk still has exaltation as "above" the other choices.  Exaltation is still the "best" or at least the preferred place God would like us to be since in other kingdoms we can't even be with Him!

 

So if there is so much variation in personal life choices in what constitutes joy and fulfillment, why would it be different in the eternities?  What if someone desires and is worthy of exaltation but doesn't prefer "the kind of life God lives"?

 

The is the funny thing in relation to your question is that in my understanding of LDS theology there is room for those who would not be comfortable living God's life.  Hence we have the doctrine of degrees or divisions in the heavenly spheres.  Each will receive the assignment that will place them in position to receive the greatest fulfillment for them.

[Ahab]

If his way wasn't the best way he would not be living that way.

Just common sense.

[ERayR]

There's a lot that can be said on this. My very quick answer will be woefully incomplete but here's a couple quick thoughts:

1. I don't think exalted women will live the life of a "stay-at-home" mom as we know it on earth; as a corollary to that I think a lot of people have incorrect ideas about how moms should be moms here on earth, reading unnecessary drudgery and captivity into it that God never intended
2. D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

I wanna say more. But it's late.

 

Just a quick not pic.  Not all women look at stay at home mom as drudgery.  My wife never wanted to be anything but a stay at home mom.  She got a job once and lasted less than two months and was never more miserable.  She quit and returned to what she loved.

[Ahab]

Just a quick not pic. Not all women look at stay at home mom as drudgery. My wife never wanted to be anything but a stay at home mom. She got a job once and lasted less than two months and was never more miserable. She quit and returned to what she loved.

Any job that involves working for somebody else, at their whim, doing only what they want you to do and for only as long as they want you to do it, where the job is your way of life for only as long as your employer keeps you on at that job and otherwise you would need to find either a different job or another employer who wants you to do that job for them, is not my idea for the best way to live eternally. It sounds more like what a "ministering servant" would spend his or her time doing, rather than what a self-sustaining individual would be doing. The people at the very top employ people to work for them to do what they want to have done, rather than being someone with one of those "jobs".

[ERayR]

Any job that involves working for somebody else, at their whim, doing only what they want you to do and for only as long as they want you to do it, where the job is your way of life for only as long as your employer keeps you on at that job and otherwise you would need to find either a different job or another employer who wants you to do that job for them, is not my idea for the best way to live eternally. It sounds more like what a "ministering servant" would spend his or her time doing, rather than what a self-sustaining individual would be doing. The people at the very top employ people to work for them to do what they want to have done, rather than being someone with one of those "jobs".

 

And what has this to do with motherhood and the divisions of heaven?

[Tacenda]

Just a quick not pic.  Not all women look at stay at home mom as drudgery.  My wife never wanted to be anything but a stay at home mom.  She got a job once and lasted less than two months and was never more miserable.  She quit and returned to what she loved.

Probably one of the hardest selfless jobs there is, being a SAHM.  And if done lovingly how wonderful the served feel!  I often felt like I should have had a career, but chose jobs that would always allow me to be with my children.  Either babysitting in the home or jobs that would get me home in time to be there when my kids were home from school.  But I'm not very good at even being a stay at home mom.  I'm very good at cleaning bathrooms , cleaning in general but not the best cook or baker.  I was maybe only good at managing my family, which isn't that welcome, haha.  But often wonder if the outside world convinced me that my job wasn't important or something.  I now see that my job was probably everything to my family...clean clothes, bathrooms, house etc. and even boring food maybe.  But did I do it lovingly?  I don't know, or did I take pride in my job, probably not.  We need to give much more honor to those that hold down the fort at home while others are out of the home for the day. 

 

But also think that an outside job can be a great getaway for a lot of people, where they socialize.  I think gone are the days that women visit each other at random during the day like they did in my mom's stay-at-home generation.  So being a SAHM can be awfully lonely unless you really get something social for yourself and not just live for others, speaking from experience, or to each their own.   

 

I think your wife ERayR, did the right thing and chose what was the best fit for her and since it was what she loved most and not drudgery, I'm sure she benefited you and your family immensely!     

 

Sorry for the derail.  Or is it?     

[Ahab]

And what has this to do with motherhood and the divisions of heaven?

Heh, I was contrasting the role of an eternal Mother, or Father even, with the role of anyone else with any kind of a "job".

I would also choose and prefer to be a "stay at home" parent over having any kind of a job, too, as long as I could fulfil the needs and righteous desires of my family too. Just as my wife did, although the "stay at home" part is a misnomer.

[ERayR]

Probably one of the hardest selfless jobs there is, being a SAHM.  And if done lovingly how wonderful the served feel!  I often felt like I should have had a career, but chose jobs that would always allow me to be with my children.  Either babysitting in the home or jobs that would get me home in time to be there when my kids were home from school.  But I'm not very good at even being a stay at home mom.  I'm very good at cleaning bathrooms , cleaning in general but not the best cook or baker.  I was maybe only good at managing my family, which isn't that welcome, haha.  But often wonder if the outside world convinced me that my job wasn't important or something.  I now see that my job was probably everything to my family...clean clothes, bathrooms, house etc. and even boring food maybe.  But did I do it lovingly?  I don't know, or did I take pride in my job, probably not.  We need to give much more honor to those that hold down the fort at home while others are out of the home for the day. 

 

But also think that an outside job can be a great getaway for a lot of people, where they socialize.  I think gone are the days that women visit each other at random during the day like they did in my mom's stay-at-home generation.  So being a SAHM can be awfully lonely unless you really get something social for yourself and not just live for others, speaking from experience, or to each their own.   

 

I think your wife ERayR, did the right thing and chose what was the best fit for her and since it was what she loved most and not drudgery, I'm sure she benefited you and your family immensely!     

 

Sorry for the derail.  Or is it?     

 

Not a derail, the topic is about the kind of life God lives.  I think that in all our grandiose imaginings we really do not understand what God's life is.  He is a family man and that gets lost in all the imaginings of world building.  Not that he doesn't build worlds but that he builds them for his family.

[ERayR]

Heh, I was contrasting the role of an eternal Mother, or Father even, with the role of anyone else with any kind of a "job".

I would also choose and prefer to be a "stay at home" parent over having any kind of a job, too, as long as I could fulfil the needs and righteous desires of my family too. Just as my wife did, although the "stay at home" part is a misnomer.

 

Yep when you raise a dozen kids there are some days when the stay at home gets lost.

[Ahab]

Probably one of the hardest selfless jobs there is, being a SAHM. And if done lovingly how wonderful the served feel! I often felt like I should have had a career, but chose jobs that would always allow me to be with my children. Either babysitting in the home or jobs that would get me home in time to be there when my kids were home from school. But I'm not very good at even being a stay at home mom. I'm very good at cleaning bathrooms , cleaning in general but not the best cook or baker. I was maybe only good at managing my family, which isn't that welcome, haha. But often wonder if the outside world convinced me that my job wasn't important or something. I now see that my job was probably everything to my family...clean clothes, bathrooms, house etc. and even boring food maybe. But did I do it lovingly? I don't know, or did I take pride in my job, probably not. We need to give much more honor to those that hold down the fort at home while others are out of the home for the day.

But also think that an outside job can be a great getaway for a lot of people, where they socialize. I think gone are the days that women visit each other at random during the day like they did in my mom's stay-at-home generation. So being a SAHM can be awfully lonely unless you really get something social for yourself and not just live for others, speaking from experience, or to each their own.

I think your wife ERayR, did the right thing and chose what was the best fit for her and since it was what she loved most and not drudgery, I'm sure she benefited you and your family immensely!

Sorry for the derail. Or is it?

Just so you know, I don't consider parenting to be a "job" even while knowing it involves a lot of "work". A job is a position you can be fired from, with an employer who gives you that job and only for as long as that employer employs you, so that does not fit into my parameters for being a parent because a parent can not ever be fired, although one could quit or not do much of the work involved in being a good one.

[CV75]

So if there is so much variation in personal life choices in what constitutes joy and fulfillment, why would it be different in the eternities?  What if someone desires and is worthy of exaltation but doesn't prefer "the kind of life God lives"?

I think variation continues in the exalted state, and that every exalted individual is purposeful in his choices and agrees on what to put first (the immortality and eternal life of man). In this way, their variation not only sustains that unanimous purpose, but is sustained by their oneness or purpose.

[Traela]

Just so you know, I don't consider parenting to be a "job" even while knowing it involves a lot of "work". A job is a position you can be fired from, with an employer who gives you that job and only for as long as that employer employs you, so that does not fit into my parameters for being a parent because a parent can not ever be fired, although one could quit or not do much of the work involved in being a good one.

So a self-employed person doesn't have a job?

[Ahab]

So a self-employed person doesn't have a job?

Just trying to share the idea that I don't consider all forms of work to be a job, although everyone without a job still does some kind of work, even if only to work for him or her self.

And in a sense even someone with his or her own company can still have a job, with the customer/client as the employer who can terminate the job/case/appt/service project at the client's/ customer's whim in some cases.

A mother or father is a pretty darn good example of someone who doesn't have the job of being a parent in the sense of somebody being able to terminate or fire him or her from that job, though. Even when parents aren't sealed to their children I wouldn't say that they are fired from their position as parents; they're just not following through with something they should do as a parent.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I know many will say, "if you aren't comfortable exalted, then you won't be and you'll be in other kingdom or doing something else, etc"  but that kind of talk still has exaltation as "above" the other choices.  Exaltation is still the "best" or at least the preferred place God would like us to be since in other kingdoms we can't even be with Him!

 

It sounds like you already appreciate that the Plan caters to all kinds of desires; you just don't seem to like the fact that desires seem to come in a hierarchy. You would prefer, I suspect, if every conceivable choice were equally weighted? But God knows that certain choices bring with them an increase of both glory and power, and that means the hierarchy is unavoidable. Wishing to enjoy all of the rewards of eternal life without actually desiring eternal life is a bit like Corianton feeling put upon because God wouldn't allow him to find peace in his poor choices.

[ERayR]

Why is "the kind of life God lives" the end goal?  What if my choice of heaven is not the same as what God does?  

 

I know many will say, "if you aren't comfortable exalted, then you won't be and you'll be in other kingdom or doing something else, etc"  but that kind of talk still has exaltation as "above" the other choices.  Exaltation is still the "best" or at least the preferred place God would like us to be since in other kingdoms we can't even be with Him!

 

 

I really think that once you shed your mortal perspective you won't look at as above.  More like different responsibilities with commensurate recompense.  If one is happy, comfortable and satisfied with what they have and would be uncomfortable in a different role why would they look at it as "above".