3DOP Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 I sure appreciate the time you took to explain your beliefs and they are reasonable. As I recall though, that you do run into issues when you start making the "gods" judges. As I recall the words that were translated were words that used to connote divinity or the divine on to these gods. So not only are they real they are divine too. Daniel M, who goes by Maklelan has posted many thoughts on this subject. You might have read some of them before. This is sorta were I was coming from. As always Rory, you are a kind person. Again thanks for your thoughts. I would be disappointed if the word(s) translated "the gods" who are judges, were not translated from a word used to connote divinity. To be such a judge as is described is to exercise the divine authority of God Himself. Yes, you are absolutely correct and I attribute a divine character to the activity of these gods/judges. It was necessary for Israel to comprehend the awesome responsibility with which the judge was being entrusted, and that is why they were so named. In my opinion, to merely translate the word as "judge" like most translations do, significantly minimizes the full impact of what it means to be one of God's judges. The first time I read a Catholic translation that made it "gods" in Exodus, with the more literal translation, it startled me. The "gods"? It wasn't until later that I began to see a connection with John 10, and Psalm 81 (82).
Vance Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 I sure appreciate the time you took to explain your beliefs and they are reasonable. As I recall though, that you do run into issues when you start making the "gods" judges. As I recall the words that were translated were words that used to connote divinity or the divine on to these gods. So not only are they real they are divine too. Daniel M, who goes by Maklelan has posted many thoughts on this subject. You might have read some of them before. This is sorta were I was coming from. As always Rory, you are a kind person. Again thanks for your thoughts. I think this is the post to which you are referring. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62682-psalm-82-and-the-canaanite-divine-assembly/#entry1209338597 That Psalm 82 refers to a divine council and not humans, judges, or kings is the overwhelming consensus in modern scholarship, although there are still outliers doing what they can to try to salvage the more conservative approach (see here, for instance).
Popular Post Tristslc Posted December 14, 2014 Popular Post Posted December 14, 2014 I want to say that He was flesh and blood while on the earth only, he has the power! And spirit in heaven, because if the spirit is encumbered in heaven with flesh and blood it dies off, where the spirit goes on forever. It just makes more sense to me, and is in the scriptures where the scripture writers apparently thought so too. JS or other leaders possibly put God in flesh and bone, so that it would be possible to have spirit children. In the Bible, it never mentions I believe, the pre existence. It has man being created from the dust of the earth. Not from a HF and Mother. Now if our church does truly believe this why is a Mother in Heaven hidden so much? She wasn't "protected" in the early church. Maybe some of us could get on board more fully if her existence is more transparent. And I don't believe it's to protect her, she can handle it if She exists. Why is the church trying to appear like the other churches, it should stand up and be counted in what it believes. Now I'm going off in a tangent, I'll shut up. Being one who believes in official LDS doctrine, especially when clear and consistent, as the Father having a body of flesh and bones is, I offer this one logical argument (and in my mind a very strong one) to my non LDS friends. If the Father is greater than the Son and the initiator of the plan, the plan that Christ was the foundation of, you cannot ignore the stunning emphasis that has been placed on universal resurrection in the plan, the very plan put forth by the Father. The Bible makes very clear that spirits will come back and get bodies, though not mortal and while glorified, bodies of flesh and bone. What else could it be they exist already as spirits before the resurrection and Christ clearly had flesh and bone after His resurrection. His being another proof of this importance. It's nt like we go to heaven or hell and never come back. This is something that has been set aside as one of the greatest events in the entire plan of salvation. One many Christians agree on and the Father is the initiator and the one that has placed such importance on bodies of flesh. So then logic would follow He has a body and there are other arguments that could be made, such as Him having a gender, etc, of which I won't make here. 5
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 15, 2014 Posted December 15, 2014 I think this is the post to which you are referring.http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62682-psalm-82-and-the-canaanite-divine-assembly/#entry1209338597 Yes, that is one of the posts.
theplains Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 JS or other leaders possibly put God in flesh and bone, so that it would be possible to have spirit children. Why is it impossible for Heavenly Father (if possessing a body of flesh and bones) to procreatea child of flesh and bones? It seems more in line that spirit begets spirit and flesh begets flesh. Thanks,Jim 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 Why is it impossible for Heavenly Father (if possessing a body of flesh and bones) to procreatea child of flesh and bones? It seems more in line that spirit begets spirit and flesh begets flesh. Thanks,Jim Pretty sure the premise that you were quote is not correct. I have never heard it. So at this point it is a red herring. 1
cursor Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) If God, Jesus, and the rest of those bijillions who have already been resurrected (from whatever world), and the rest of us, after the fact, (with physical bodies) are to be necessarily nourished ... what might be the source of that flesh? Really. In life (on this planet) "flesh" is earned through physical life effort (UMPH), and through responsible dietary intake. If you don't eat responsibly, you die. If you don't eat at all .. you die. And, of course, all of our physical bodies die eventually. If after-life folk don't eat right, or don't eat at all (because eternal flesh regeneration has its requirements), will they die? If so, where the hell do they go (pun intended)? I'm sure that you've already thought about this, and have a fabulous response. So, from whence cometh the very eternal need for bodily nutrition to support any eternal number of human embodied souls? Might it come from the eternal lives of cats, dogs, cattle, chickens, cows, buffalo, deer. salmon, trout, peas, carrots, lettuce (of umpteen varieties) ... or any of the foods that are absolutely required to support physical bodies? And, by the way, how is it that the Holy Ghost is a spirit .. without body? Sounds just a bit incomplete to me ... yet he gets to be one of the Trinity. Think about it. Edited December 17, 2014 by cursor
JLHPROF Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 If God, Jesus, and the rest of those who have already been resurrected (from whatever world), and the rest of us, after the fact, (with physical bodies) are to be necessarily nourished ... what might be the source of that flesh? In life (on this planet) "flesh" is earned through physical life effort (UMPH), and through responsible dietary intake. If you don't eat responsibly, you die. If you don't eat at all .. you die. If after-life folk don't eat right, or don't eat at all (because eternal flesh regeneration has its requirements), will they die? If so, where the hell do they go (pun intended)? I'm sure that you've already thought about this, and have a fabulous response. So, from whence cometh the very eternal need for bodily nutrition to support any eternal number of human embodied souls? Might it come from the eternal lives of cats, dogs, cattle, chickens, cows, buffalo, deer. salmon, trout, peas, carrots, lettuce (of umpteen varieties) ... or any of the foods that are absolutely required to support physical bodies? And, by the way, how is it that the Holy Ghost is a spirit .. without body? Sounds just a bit incomplete to me ... yet he gets to be one of the Trinity. Think about it. Resurrected bodies have no need of nutrition because they do not decay and eternal flesh does not need to regenerate.In fact, according to some theories, celestial items (people/planets) instead of needing to absorb energy (light) become producers of the same.
cursor Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Resurrected bodies have no need of nutrition because they do not decay and eternal flesh does not need to regenerate.In fact, according to some theories, celestial items (people/planets) instead of needing to absorb energy (light) become producers of the same. Um ... who authoritatively says so? If a living spirit owns a body of flesh and blood, then all applicable rules ... very simply apply. Unless you're David Copperfield. Eternity is bound by natural laws. We are not privy to supernatural imaginations. Think logically ... not magically. T'ain't Disney. Edited December 17, 2014 by cursor
JLHPROF Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Um ... who authoritatively says so? If a living spirit owns a body of flesh and blood, then all applicable rules ... very simply apply. Unless you're David Copperfield. Eternity is bound by natural laws. We are not privy to supernatural imaginations. Think logically ... not magically. T'ain't Disney. Well, common sense for one...if you are eternal, you cannot die. Don't eat, still don't die. No sustenance needed because there can be no result of a lack of sustenance. As Lorenzo Snow taught "In the next life we will have our bodies glorified and free from sickness and death. Nothing is so beautiful as a person in a resurrected and glorified condition. There is nothing more lovely than to be in this condition and have our wives and children and friends with us."But more authoritatively: Concerning resurrection, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, or the kingdom that God inherits or inhabits, but the flesh without the blood and the Spirit of God flowing in the veins instead of the blood, for blood is the part of the body that causes corruption. Therefore we must be changed in the twinkle of an eye or have to lay down these tabernacles and leave the blood vanish away….Blood is the corruptible part of the tabernacles. When our flesh is quickened by the Spirit, there will be no blood in this tabernacle." Joseph Smith "Our Father in heaven and our Savior and all those who have passed through the resurrection have physical bodies of flesh and bones, but their bodies are quickened by spirit and not by blood, hence they are spiritual bodies and not blood bodies. The immortal body is quickened by spirit, but the mortal body is quickened by blood... . Now when Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all other creations." Joseph Fielding Smith Can a resurrected being eat food of earth? A resurrected being can function upon any lower plane. A resurrected personage can do anything that a mortal personage can do, and much besides. - James E. Talmage "Blood, instead of imparting eternal life to the system, only imparts a natural or temporal life, and contains within itself all the ingredients of decay and death or dissolution. It is reasonable to suppose, then, that a fluid of a more refined and life-giving nature, flowed through the bodily organizations of our first Parents, and all the other animal creation—that this fluid was the life-preserving agent, that imparted immortality to all flesh, so long as they retained it in their systems.As this fluid could not have been blood which contains the seeds of death, What kind of substance was it ? We reply, that it must have been a spiritual substance or fluid, which is the only kind of substance capable of preserving any organization in immortality." - Orson Pratt 2
Calm Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 In fact, according to some theories, celestial items (people/planets) instead of needing to absorb energy (light) become producers of the same.So immortal bodies are fusion reactors? 1
JLHPROF Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 So immortal bodies are fusion reactors? "God Almighty Himself dwells in eternal fire; flesh and blood cannot go there, for all corruption is devoured by the fire. Our God is a consuming fire." - Joseph Smith "When God makes this earth immortal, he will make it glorious like the inhabitants [who] will be permitted to live upon it. They will become immortal, and be crowned with crowns of glory, light will radiate from their personages and countenances; so will the earth radiate its light, and shine forth in celestial splendor. I will not say as the splendor of our sun, for it is not a celestial body. Although the light of the sun is very glorious, it will not begin to compare with that of this earth, when it becomes celestial and eternal and is lightened by the presence of God the Father…God dwells in a world of light too glorious for mortal eyes to behold, unless aided by the Spirit of the living God." - Orson Pratt
mfbukowski Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 This is what happens when you take everything literally. This is the legacy of historicism. This is why you cannot be Mormon and believe in historicism- you have it right here bold as day. This is the conflict it all causes.
Garden Girl Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 And streets of gold too. Do I denote mocking? "streets of gold" are simply the biblical reference describing the great city descending out of heaven from God... (Rev. 21). GG
Tacenda Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Do I denote mocking? "streets of gold" are simply the biblical reference describing the great city descending out of heaven from God... (Rev. 21). GGNot mocking, just wondering how literal to take it.
cursor Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Well, common sense for one...if you are eternal, you cannot die. Don't eat, still don't die. No sustenance needed because there can be no result of a lack of sustenance. Sorry, JLHPROF, but this is not at all common sense. The laws of nature are eternal. The universe functions based on said laws. The quote by Lorenzo Snow does not at all suggest that responsible sustenance is not required throughout eternal (post-Earth) life. The Orson Pratt quote (post #87) adds no light to the question of responsible [eternal] bodily sustenance/maintenance. The other quote by Orson Pratt (post #85) was part of an article that was published in his periodical "The Seer" (1853) when he was a member of the twelve. Other members of the twelve, over the history of the church, have said some pretty non-authoritative things. The quote by Joseph Smith, "God Almighty Himself dwells in eternal fire; flesh and blood cannot go there, for all corruption is devoured by the fire. Our God is a consuming fire," Suggests that blood is not the singular impedance, but that "flesh and blood cannot to there." So, how are we, with bodies of flesh (a primary reason for our mortal existence) and blood to share responsible time and all eternity with our Father in heaven? The other quote by Joseph Smith, "Our Father in heaven and our Savior and all those who have passed through the resurrection have physical bodies of flesh and bones, but their bodies are quickened by spirit and not by blood, hence they are spiritual bodies and not blood bodies," doesn't really offer any clear understanding of how the Holy Ghost fits into the scheme of things. Does he have a body? Does he not? If not, how might he have been exalted? The James E. Talmage quote offers nothing on the subject. Edited December 17, 2014 by cursor 1
pogi Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) So, how are we, with bodies of flesh (a primary reason for our mortal existence) and blood to share responsible time and all eternity with our Father in heaven? I understand that resurrected bodies will not have blood. "there is no fundamental principle belonging to a human system that ever goes into another in this world or the world to come" (HC 5:339). Chemical disintegration is not final destruction. The resurrected body is tangible, but when the flesh is quickened by the Spirit there will be "spirit in their [veins] and not blood" (WJS, p. 270; see also TPJS, p. 367). See also:https://www.lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-3/lesson-8-the-resurrection-and-judgment?lang=eng “… Now what is a spiritual body? It is one that is quickened by spirit and not by blood. …(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76–77). What are the natural laws that allow spirit to "quicken" the flesh without blood? Who know's? It seems miraculous because we cannot observe such laws in effect in mortality. One could just as easily ask, "what are the natural laws that allowed Lazareth to be raised from the dead or for Christ to walk on water, etc.?" We don't know, but God obviously does. Because resurrected bodies are not quickened by blood but by spirit, no nutrition is required. Edited December 17, 2014 by pogi 2
pogi Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 And, by the way, how is it that the Holy Ghost is a spirit .. without body? Sounds just a bit incomplete to me ... yet he gets to be one of the Trinity. The Holy Ghost does not have a body for purposes relate to His mission. This is a temporary condition. He too will receive a body after his mission is complete.
Calm Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Because resurrected bodies are not quickened by blood but by spirit, no nutrition is required.No nutrition in the sense of mortal food, I get. But I think some form of energy intake will be needed even if it is somehow absorbing the Light of Christ through our skin or something entirely different.
cursor Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 The Holy Ghost does not have a body for purposes relate to His mission. This is a temporary condition. He too will receive a body after his mission is complete. So, the Holy Ghost must be be one of those with us in the preexistence (having no body). Might it be his assignment to be the final soul to be born on this Earth (thus receiving his physical body)? Otherwise ... 1) how would he get one, and 2) how might he possibly serve as the "Holy Ghost" up until the finale?
JLHPROF Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 No nutrition in the sense of mortal food, I get. But I think some form of energy intake will be needed even if it is somehow absorbing the Light of Christ through our skin or something entirely different. I personally prefer the Orson Pratt quote - we will be producers of light and energy instead of consumers. Immortal bodies shouldn't need to be replenished.
cursor Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 "Immortal bodies" hardly suggest that there isn't some necessary plug ... some necessary source of supportive energy. Natural law says that "it has to freakin' come from somewhere" (really, that's what the natural law states ... in those words). 1
pogi Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 So, the Holy Ghost must be be one of those with us in the preexistence (having no body). Might it be his assignment to be the final soul to be born on this Earth (thus receiving his physical body)? Otherwise ... 1) how would he get one, and 2) how might he possibly serve as the "Holy Ghost" up until the finale? We have entered the realm of speculation (please note that my previous comment was only speculation as well...it has not been revealed). I would agree with your assumptions however.
JLHPROF Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 "Immortal bodies" hardly suggest that there isn't some necessary plug ... some necessary source of supportive energy. Natural law says that "it has to freakin' come from somewhere" (really, that's what the natural law states ... in those words). So where does God receive his energy from. The scriptures seem to indicate that he produces it.
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