urroner Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 I was discussing Psalm 82 some time ago and somebody in the group said he believed that he believed that God has an assembly of His own which He condemned, rather He appeared in the Assembly of El, where El is the head Canaanite god. Elohim crashes the Canaanite gods' party and condemns them for their wickedness. I had kind of forgotten about this until I was reading in the Net Bible where a footnote (3) for verse 1 says ...The present translation assumes this is a reference to the Canaanite high god El, who presided over the Canaanite divine assembly. (See Isa 14:13, where El’s assembly is called “the stars of El.”) In the Ugaritic myths the phrase ’dt ’ilm refers to the “assembly of the gods,” who congregate in King Kirtu’s house, where Baal asks El to bless Kirtu’s house (see G. R. Driver, Canaanite Myths and Legends, 91). If the Canaanite divine assembly is referred to here in Ps 82:1, then the psalm must be understood as a bold polemic against Canaanite religion. Israel’s God invades El’s assembly, denounces its gods as failing to uphold justice, and announces their coming demise... How common is this interpretation?
mfbukowski Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Sounds like it could be a polemic against the Cananite gods after the God of Israel won the day, as obviously He did. In fact you might argue that is the most common interpretation for all Christians and Jews.
urroner Posted January 26, 2014 Author Posted January 26, 2014 Sounds like it could be a polemic against the Cananite gods after the God of Israel won the day, as obviously He did. In fact you might argue that is the most common interpretation for all Christians and Jews.But I thought the most common interpretation was the elohim God was chastising were judges/humans. It just really kind of threw me for a loop when he threw in the Canaanite gods.
mfbukowski Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 But I thought the most common interpretation was the elohim God was chastising were judges/humans. It just really kind of threw me for a loop when he threw in the Canaanite gods.I don't know but I thought the translation of "judges" was controversial, though the one favored by Evangelicals. I think Mormon scholars favor "gods".
Helen47 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 An interesting discussion of this psalm is found in:http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Heiser%20Elohim%20of%20Ps82%20Gods%20or%20Men%20ETS2010.pdf
urroner Posted January 26, 2014 Author Posted January 26, 2014 I don't know but I thought the translation of "judges" was controversial, though the one favored by Evangelicals. I think Mormon scholars favor "gods". Living in Florida, surrounded by EVs, and even attending their Bible classes for a while, the only thing I ever heard was "elohim" referred to "judges" or "humans," nothing else. But Mr. M, you have never led me astray yet. An interesting discussion of this psalm is found in:http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Heiser%20Elohim%20of%20Ps82%20Gods%20or%20Men%20ETS2010.pdf Helen, from what I have heard, Mike Heiser, might not agree with what most Mormons scholars have to say about this and he has even debated it with some, but, from what i have heard, he is very nice about it. When I read about him some time ago, it blew me away that he was willing to take on so much flack from many EVs. I even approached some EVs that I've had some discussions with and told them about him. I asked them to read what he had presented and they refused, saying that he had fallen from the faith. I find this really sad, but I also realize that he probably knew that this might happen and I respect him even more because of it. He was the first EV I heard to talk about the Council of Elohim and to say that "elohim" really meant "gods" in the Psalm and didn't mean "judges." 1
mfbukowski Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Living in Florida, surrounded by EVs, and even attending their Bible classes for a while, the only thing I ever heard was "elohim" referred to "judges" or "humans," nothing else. But Mr. M, you have never led me astray yet. Helen, from what I have heard, Mike Heiser, might not agree with what most Mormons scholars have to say about this and he has even debated it with some, but, from what i have heard, he is very nice about it. When I read about him some time ago, it blew me away that he was willing to take on so much flack from many EVs. I even approached some EVs that I've had some discussions with and told them about him. I asked them to read what he had presented and they refused, saying that he had fallen from the faith. I find this really sad, but I also realize that he probably knew that this might happen and I respect him even more because of it. He was the first EV I heard to talk about the Council of Elohim and to say that "elohim" really meant "gods" in the Psalm and didn't mean "judges."I am pretty sure Mak has posted stuff on this here and on his site on the Council of the Gods. Can't look it up at the moment but that might be a start. And of course Jesus gave his own interpretation arguably in John 10:34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Virtually all the commentaries I have seen on this verse link it to the Psalm, and the EV's jump through hoops to explain away what it sayshttp://www.gotquestions.org/you-are-gods.html Edited January 27, 2014 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/12/the-divine-council/ http://www.paperbackswap.com/Assembly-Gods-Divine-E-Theodore-Mullen-Jr-/book/0891303804/ http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/tag/divine-council/ http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2010-David-Bokovoy.pdf That's a start. 1
maklelan Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 If you're interested in what I've written about Psalm 82, probably my most up-to-date stuff is from three SBLs ago. The first paper treats the interpretation of Psalm 82 in the Latter-day Saint tradition. The second deals more secularly with Psalm 82 within the context of the Psalms of Asaph: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6259597/Psalm%2082%20in%20the%20Contemporary%20Latter-day%20Saint%20Tradition.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6259597/Psalm%2082%20in%20the%20Psalms%20of%20Asaph.pdf In short, Psalm 82 is most likely a late-exilic reworking of an older narrative tradition in which a second-tier deity judges other gods within the Council of El (run by the divine patriarch, El). By the time of the composition of Psalm 82, in my opinion, the deities YHWH and El had already become conflated, and they're treated as one deity in the text. That Psalm 82 refers to a divine council and not humans, judges, or kings is the overwhelming consensus in modern scholarship, although there are still outliers doing what they can to try to salvage the more conservative approach (see here, for instance). The distinction or identification of YHWH and El in the psalm is still contested. I would say the pendulum of critical scholarship is probably moving toward seeing them as one deity, although vestigially preserving signs of an earlier time when they were distinct (Machinist's article on the question, from this volume, is one of the most thorough and careful available). 1
mfbukowski Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 If you're interested in what I've written about Psalm 82, probably my most up-to-date stuff is from three SBLs ago. The first paper treats the interpretation of Psalm 82 in the Latter-day Saint tradition. The second deals more secularly with Psalm 82 within the context of the Psalms of Asaph: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6259597/Psalm%2082%20in%20the%20Contemporary%20Latter-day%20Saint%20Tradition.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6259597/Psalm%2082%20in%20the%20Psalms%20of%20Asaph.pdf In short, Psalm 82 is most likely a late-exilic reworking of an older narrative tradition in which a second-tier deity judges other gods within the Council of El (run by the divine patriarch, El). By the time of the composition of Psalm 82, in my opinion, the deities YHWH and El had already become conflated, and they're treated as one deity in the text. That Psalm 82 refers to a divine council and not humans, judges, or kings is the overwhelming consensus in modern scholarship, although there are still outliers doing what they can to try to salvage the more conservative approach (see here, for instance). The distinction or identification of YHWH and El in the psalm is still contested. I would say the pendulum of critical scholarship is probably moving toward seeing them as one deity, although vestigially preserving signs of an earlier time when they were distinct (Machinist's article on the question, from this volume, is one of the most thorough and careful available).Thanks!I was close at least! 1
urroner Posted January 28, 2014 Author Posted January 28, 2014 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/12/the-divine-council/ http://www.paperbackswap.com/Assembly-Gods-Divine-E-Theodore-Mullen-Jr-/book/0891303804/ http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/tag/divine-council/ http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2010-David-Bokovoy.pdf That's a start. Thanks M. Those are all great links, except for the $250 book. It's just a smidgin over my budget, but since you suggested it, I'm sure my children will not mind starving for a week or two (Please note that i didn't say anything about me starving.). This stuff is so interesting to read. And Dan, thanks so much also.
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Thanks M. Those are all great links, except for the $250 book. It's just a smidgin over my budget, but since you suggested it, I'm sure my children will not mind starving for a week or two (Please note that i didn't say anything about me starving.). This stuff is so interesting to read. And Dan, thanks so much also.What is so fascinating to me is the way this parallels the Mormon view in so many respects. The more traditional groups are turning themselves in knots trying to justify their positions while the evidence is so overwhelmingly against them. I imagine that must be very threatening.
EllenMaksoud Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 I was discussing Psalm 82 some time ago and somebody in the group said he believed that he believed that God has an assembly of His own which He condemned, rather He appeared in the Assembly of El, where El is the head Canaanite god. Elohim crashes the Canaanite gods' party and condemns them for their wickedness. I had kind of forgotten about this until I was reading in the Net Bible where a footnote (3) for verse 1 says How common is this interpretation?Being strictly monotheistic, I think the author of PS 82 was simply doing social commentary. If Jesus was the God of the OT, why was he not dealing with the evil rulers of the day?
rameumptom Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) It goes back to the Table of Nations, where Elohim gave a nation to each of his divine sons to rule over. Jehovah, according to the Hebrew tradition, was given israel as his portion. Note that later, Hebrews combined Elohim and Jehovah into one being. In Job 1, we see some of the divine sons of God with the Adversary (not necessarily THE Satan), challenging Jehovah for supremacy of Israel. Eventually, Jehovah conquered all the other gods of the assembly. Margaret Barker taught that anciently there were divine men (sons of God/Adam) and sons of men. The sons of God were called angels, while the sons of men were considered animals/mortal. Placed in this context, we see Psalm 82 as a polemic against the other divine sons, who lose their status and are cast down/out. Oh, and the writer of Psalms was not "strictly monotheistic", at least not in the way we think of it today. Early Jews accepted the idea of other gods, but believe Jehovah was able to conquer them. Strict monotheism did not occur among the Jews until after the Diaspora and the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. Edited January 28, 2014 by rameumptom
mfbukowski Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Being strictly monotheistic, I think the author of PS 82 was simply doing social commentary. If Jesus was the God of the OT, why was he not dealing with the evil rulers of the day?Jesus or Yahweh or Jehovah- all the same person- is the only God we need to deal with. He IS the "one God" and the Son of the Father and has been given the responsibility for our salvation. These are all figurative stories or "myths" and should not be confused with faith practices or beliefs about our personal relationship with God- who is Jehovah. We need to understand that the Hebrews had their own myths as well as their personal relationships with Yahweh/Jehovah, and that is what we are discussing.
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