Do We Worship Joseph Smith?

[Storm Rider]

Nope, I don't think we have that dispensation thing all worked out with all the facts known.  There are some good stories, but nothing written in stone and God dictating what that all means.

 

Don't like singing "Praise to the Man" even though I did as a young boy.  The tune is good and it was enjoyable to sing, but as I got older I became progressively more uncomfortable with the words.  Joseph was an instrument through whom the Church of Jesus Christ was restored - no more and no less.  

 

People have favorites and I can understand whey some favor Joseph.  As I have said before I have never felt particularly close to him.  I think he was an amazing, complex man, but I have other prophets that I favor more.  

 

Some of the responses here surprised me.  I though the question was another one of those inane threads of which we have had so many of late.  

 

I would never mention Joseph Smith, Peter, Moses, or any other prophet in he same way that I talk about or feel about like any member of the Godhead.  There is God and then there is broken man that through God's grace magnifies the wonders of God.  

 

It takes all kinds. 

[JLHPROF]

Nope, I don't think we have that dispensation thing all worked out with all the facts known.  There are some good stories, but nothing written in stone and God dictating what that all means.

 

Don't like singing "Praise to the Man" even though I did as a young boy.  The tune is good and it was enjoyable to sing, but as I got older I became progressively more uncomfortable with the words.  Joseph was an instrument through whom the Church of Jesus Christ was restored - no more and no less.  

 

People have favorites and I can understand whey some favor Joseph.  As I have said before I have never felt particularly close to him.  I think he was an amazing, complex man, but I have other prophets that I favor more.  

 

Some of the responses here surprised me.  I though the question was another one of those inane threads of which we have had so many of late. 

 

Disagree completely.

 

 

 

I would never mention Joseph Smith, Peter, Moses, or any other prophet in he same way that I talk about or feel about like any member of the Godhead.  There is God and then there is broken man that through God's grace magnifies the wonders of God.  

 

It takes all kinds.

 

Except as Mormons we know the division between God and Man isn't as wide as other religions believe.  Our God was once a man just like we are.  Men just like us WILL become Gods.  Christ has a head start.  Doesn't mean Joseph can't be well on his way too.

[thesometimesaint]

The most important question for me is If I lived in Noah's time would I get on the boat?

[JLHPROF]

The most important question for me is If I lived in Noah's time would I get on the boat?

 

Why bother?  The flood wasn't that big, right?

[thesometimesaint]

Why bother?  The flood wasn't that big, right?

 

I believe it was a massive albeit regional flood. So the question still remains; Would I get on the boat? Would you if it was just a massive albeit regional flood where you lived?

[why me]

I know we're just supposed to worship God and Jesus, but do we also worship Joseph Smith?

Brigham Young said; "From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation, the keys to rule in the spirit world, and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim -"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought! But it is true!" -Journal of Discourses 7:289 (Oct 9, 1859)

 

So Joseph Smith reigns as a supreme being and we can't return to God without Joseph Smith's approval. So should we worship Joseph Smith too?

 

Joseph Smith once said; "Come on! Ye prosecutors! Ye false swearers! All hell boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me yet, when they get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the church, Vol. 6, p. 408,409)

 

So should we be showing more worship towards Joseph Smith?

First we do not know if BY actually said that. To my understanding these discourses were not actually in BYs hand but taken from notes and put in a book of discourses. However, lets say that he did say it.  My guess would be that brigham was still feeling Joseph's murder and was still in 'mourning'. It was said 15 years after his murder. He may have been using hyperbole. Sometimes we need to give some people slack.

[why me]

We need to turn the JS reverence down a notch or two.

I don't think that we revere him at all. But we do respect him. And if one is a church member, we must believe that he was chosen to bring the restoration to the earth. That in itself is quite a feat and would make him chosen. And he gave his life for it. But we don't revere him like the catholics may revere mary etc. We don't pray to him for intercession.

[The Nehor]

We need to turn the JS reverence down a notch or two.

 

No, our enemies need to turn down their hyperbole about us worshiping Joseph Smith.

[why me]

So you're disagreeing with the JoD statement and leader?

I hold the JoD suspect. I don't believe that they were appoved by BY prior for publication. Also, I don't consider anything in the JoD doctrine unless otherwise stated. It is basically a book of Bys sermons. I do know however that Joseph was loved by Brigham and that brigham was very upset with joseph's murder. I think that it was all said out of love and not in declaring doctrine. And I think that most people who would hear BY speak those words thought so too. It was said to honor Joseph for the man that BY thought he was.

Edited October 12, 2014 by why me

[JLHPROF]

I hold the JoD suspect. I don't believe that they were appoved by BY prior for publication. Also, I don't consider anything in the JoD doctrine unless otherwise stated. It is basically a book of Bys sermons. I do know however that Joseph was loved by Brigham and that brigham was very upset with joseph's murder. I think that it was all said out of love and not in declaring doctrine. And I think that most people who would hear BY speak those words thought so too. It was said to honor Joseph for the man that BY thought he was.

 

Quote from the First Presidency:

"Dear Brethren. — It is well known to many of you that Elder George D. Watt, by our counsel, spent much time in the midst of poverty and hardships to acquire the art of reporting in Phonography which he has faithfully and fully accomplished; and he has been reporting the public sermons, discourses, lectures, &c., delivered by the Presidency, the Twelve and others in this city, for nearly two years, almost without fee or reward. "Elder Watt now proposes to publish a Journal of these reports, in England for the benefit of the Saints at large, and to obtain means to enable him to sustain his highly useful position of Reporter. You will perceive at once that this will be a work mutual benefit, and we cheerfully and warmly request your co-operation in the purchase and sale of the above named Journal, and wish all the profits arising therefrom to be under the control of Elder Watt." [signed] BRIGHAM YOUNG, HEBER C. KIMBALL, WILLARD RICHARDS" (Messages of the First Presidency 2:119.)

 

Yep, the first presidency approved the publication sale of the Journal of Discourses.

 

But the biggest, most telling thing about the Journals is that the General Authorities continue to quote from them in books and discourses.  They just pick and choose the bits they agree with.

Edited October 12, 2014 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

First we do not know if BY actually said that. To my understanding these discourses were not actually in BYs hand but taken from notes and put in a book of discourses. However, lets say that he did say it.  My guess would be that brigham was still feeling Joseph's murder and was still in 'mourning'. It was said 15 years after his murder. He may have been using hyperbole. Sometimes we need to give some people slack.

 

Well, Brigham said it (or similiar) on a dozen occasions in all sorts of sources, not just the journals.  He definitely believed it.

And so do I.

[ERayR]

We need to turn the JS reverence down a notch or two.

 

Why?

[MorningStar]

This is a silly question.  Of course we shouldn't worship Joseph Smith.

[ERayR]

Joseph was an instrument through whom the Church of Jesus Christ was restored - no more and no less.  

 

 

One of seven dispensational heads.  Isn't that enough?

[why me]

 

Yep, the first presidency approved the publication sale of the Journal of Discourses.

 

But the biggest, most telling thing about the Journals is that the General Authorities continue to quote from them in books and discourses.  They just pick and choose the bits they agree with.

I do believe that BY considered the JoD a mistake. Most likely he would have enjoyed a chance to edit them. We have no idea if the recorder got it right. I think that after publication there was some regret.

[JAHS]

Quote from the First Presidency:

"Dear Brethren. — It is well known to many of you that Elder George D. Watt, by our counsel, spent much time in the midst of poverty and hardships to acquire the art of reporting in Phonography which he has faithfully and fully accomplished; and he has been reporting the public sermons, discourses, lectures, &c., delivered by the Presidency, the Twelve and others in this city, for nearly two years, almost without fee or reward. "Elder Watt now proposes to publish a Journal of these reports, in England for the benefit of the Saints at large, and to obtain means to enable him to sustain his highly useful position of Reporter. You will perceive at once that this will be a work mutual benefit, and we cheerfully and warmly request your co-operation in the purchase and sale of the above named Journal, and wish all the profits arising therefrom to be under the control of Elder Watt." [signed] BRIGHAM YOUNG, HEBER C. KIMBALL, WILLARD RICHARDS" (Messages of the First Presidency 2:119.)

 

Yep, the first presidency approved the publication sale of the Journal of Discourses.

 

But the biggest, most telling thing about the Journals is that the General Authorities continue to quote from them in books and discourses.  They just pick and choose the bits they agree with.

 

Though the First Presidency endorsed the publication of the Journal there was no endorsement as to the accuracy or reliability of the contents. There were occasions when the accuracy was questionable. The accounts were mostly written in shorthand and then reproduced later in England and the final product was not always cleared by the speakers because of problems of time and distance.

[ERayR]

I do believe that BY considered the JoD a mistake. Most likely he would have enjoyed a chance to edit them. We have no idea if the recorder got it right. I think that after publication there was some regret.

 

You base this on what?

[Ham Clam]

Why?  He's the head of our dispensation, one of the 7 grand heads.  No man in this dispensation will gain resurrection or exaltation without going through him.  This entire dispensation is his inheritance, which he will turn over to Father who in turn will give all he has to Christ.

Joseph Smith is NOT just another prophet of the Church. 

 

It IS true, we should only worship the Father, not even Christ wanted to be worshipped.  So I don't worship Joseph Smith.

But I revere him as right beneath the Father and the Son.

What I meant was that our pedestal is just too high sometimes!

... or it feels like we play from two different time periods. Early Christianity and the start of the Restoration and we can't balance them. 

[ERayR]

... or it feels like we play from two different time periods. Early Christianity and the start of the Restoration and we can't balance them. 

 

What?

Edited October 13, 2014 by ERayR

[Ahab]

Yada yada yada yada yada.

First make it clear what you mean by "worship" and then I'll tell you whether or not I worship Joseph Smith as a man who communed with Jehovah while restoring the priesthood of God.

If you mean do I follow him as he followed God, and as I follow anyone else who followed God before me, then yes I do, but I really should not assume that is what you mean.

[Storm Rider]

One of seven dispensational heads.  Isn't that enough?

 

I do not undermine Joseph and what God accomplished through him.  Nor am I demeaning his role as one of the prophets of a dispensation.  However, I am also not going to be so foolish has to put Joseph or any other prophet even close to the position I hold each member of the Godhead.  

 

I have always separated man from God.  I have a clear understanding of the Plan of Salvation and the purpose of this mortal life. I understand our Father's desire for each of us and the gift that offers us through Christ.  I understand that he desires to make us like him, but that does not indicate that we are him nor any other creature.  Our Father is so far beyond us as to make the conversation laughable to make a comparison. 

 

Some think that Joseph must be mentioned only in the most respectful of voices; I obviously disagree.  Men are men and God is God. 

 

Is it enough? When compared to our Savior it does not come close. 

[Storm Rider]

Disagree completely.

 

 

Except as Mormons we know the division between God and Man isn't as wide as other religions believe.  Our God was once a man just like we are.  Men just like us WILL become Gods.  Christ has a head start.  Doesn't mean Joseph can't be well on his way too.

 

Disagree all you want.  I could not disagree in any stronger manner with you either.  You and I have a different evaluation process of what is important in the Church of Jesus Christ and a different manner in setting priorities with doctrine or even the recognition of doctrine.  We even disagree with what is and what is not doctrine.  Now that we have agreed to disagree let's move on.

 

It goes without saying that through Christ was are offered the opportunity to become joint-heirs with him.  To become like God by his making, his grace is true doctrine. However, between here and there is a lot of road.  Christ does not just have a head start he is a member of the Godhead; there is no comparison between him and any mere mortal. 

[Bernard Gui]

There is a difference between singing hymns of worship to God and hymns about Joseph Smith. We do not pray to Joseph or make covenants with him or remember his blood and body weekly in sacrament meeting. We rightly praise him as a great prophet, but no, we do not worship him. The words "Praise to the man" could just as well be said about Abraham, Moses, Peter, Thomas Monson, or my bishop. Jesus gave praise to John the Baptist. Brother Brigham was a good BLADE. I equate praise in this sense more with admiration and gratitude than with awe and reverence. It troubles me to put anyone other than the Godhead on a pedestal. We are human, after all, and sinful.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Silhouette]

There is a difference between singing hymns of worship to God and hymns about Joseph Smith. We do not pray to Joseph or make covenants with him or remember his blood and body weekly in sacrament meeting. We rightly praise him as a great prophet, but no, we do not worship him. The words "Praise to the man" could just as well be said about Abraham, Moses, Peter, Thomas Monson, or my bishop. Jesus gave praise to John the Baptist. Brother Brigham was a good BLADE. I equate praise in this sense more with admiration and gratitude than with awe and reverence. It troubles me to put anyone other than the Godhead on a pedestal. We are human, after all, and sinful.

Amen.

[why me]

You base this on what?

 

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/by_sermons_scripture.htm

 

by John Walsh

Brigham Young said, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture." (Journal of Discourses 13:95). Are all of Brigham Young's sermons considered scripture and official LDS doctrine?

No, neither the Church nor Brigham Young himself considered all of his sermons scripture. To understand the context of the quote that you are using, let's look at the entire paragraph of your reference.

"Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this [discourse] go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, Page 95)

"Brother Orson Hyde referred to a few who complained about not getting revelations. I will make a statement here that has been brought against me as a crime, perhaps, or as a fault in my life. Not here, I do not allude to anything of the kind in this place, but in the councils of the nations--that Brigham Young has said 'when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.' I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible, and if you want to read revelation read the sayings of him who knows the mind of God, without any special command to one man to go here, and to another to go yonder, or to do this or that, or to go and settle here or there. " (Journal of Discourses, Vol.13, p.264)

President Young had two prerequisites for calling a sermon scripture. First, he needed to review the sermon and make any necessary corrections. Second, it had to be identified as scripture.

It should be noted that very few of the recorded sermons of Brigham Young were reviewed for correctness by the him. Even fewer sermons were announced as scripture. For the most part, President Young's sermons were given on an impromptu basis and hand recorded by third parties when he spoke. Since only Jesus Christ was perfect and infallible, it is not surprising that some of his sermons are erroneously transcribed. The fact that President Young required a statement to be reviewed and corrected before it is called scripture presupposes errors in some of the impromtu remarks that were recorded by third parties.

Occasionally, the critics make the argument that Brigham Young had plenty of opportunity to correct the Journal of Discourses for any errors. Therefore, they make the argument that it must be considered scripture by default. However, as noted above, President Young taught that for a statement to be considered scripture it must be positively identified as such. He did not say "assume it's scripture unless I say otherwise."

 

I can only assume that he wasn't so thrilled with the final product. Of course, Brigham would not have known just how the critics are using his journals today to lead members away and the critics are not exactly forthcoming with the fact that many of the writings are impromtu remarks.

Edited October 13, 2014 by why me