Brian 2.0 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 If it's untrue, then the Lord lied to me. There's always the option that someone else lied to you... and you incorrectly labelled that person as the Lord in this life. Just saying, it is an option, however improbable you may think it.
Avatar4321 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 "I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it."History of the Church 5:517; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316I love that quote
Avatar4321 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Unfortunately, I don't think you can dredge the pits of hell like you can the swamps in Nauvoo. how do you know we can't? I've never been there so I don't know.
thesometimesaint Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Unfortunately, I don't think you can dredge the pits of hell like you can the swamps in Nauvoo. Different process same results. 1
blooit Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 I am sure you have. If you ever did your homework, you gave up something now to learn something later. Washing your car is a sacrifice- work for a shiny car. Mowed the lawn? Sacrifice. Gone to school? Sacrifice. Planted a plant? etc etc etc.When you bought a computer you sacrificed money for your computer. You can't get away from the idea of giving something and getting something you want more. That sounds like a trade... in my humble opinion, a sacrifice usually involves giving with no expectation of return. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 That sounds like a trade... in my humble opinion, a sacrifice usually involves giving with no expectation of return. Now there's a thought.
thatjimguy Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 This is the kind of question the devil asked of Christ during His temptation in the wilderness. Play along and answer a question phrased in this manner and you demonstrate you are not firm in the faith and that you already have doubt. How do you think Nephi would answer this question? You have been repeatedly warned against condemning and questioning other posters' faith. You are suspended. I do not see the point of your rebuttal. Alma 32 calls anyone who says they have a perfect knowledge and faith a lair. If we knew for sure, we would have zero faith. Also, Jesus, whom I would assume knew perfectly of God and the afterlife, is a much different than our mortal selves. If we cannot doubt, we cannot believe. Kind of like we cannot know happiness without sorrow kind of thing.
mfbukowski Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 That sounds like a trade... in my humble opinion, a sacrifice usually involves giving with no expectation of return.So Jesus died for nothing, with no expectation that he would save us. I think you are wrong. You give service with the expectation that it will help the other person, or else why do it? Because you like pain?
Rain Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 That sounds like a trade... in my humble opinion, a sacrifice usually involves giving with no expectation of return.It will depend on which definition you use. Some are like what you said. Some say it is giving up something lesser for something greater later. Most of the time in church settings I find they are talking about the last definition. I suspect you are like me though. While I understand logically the last definition and see I have made many of those sacrifices I have yet to FEEL like I am making a sacrifice.
Ahab Posted September 7, 2014 Posted September 7, 2014 I wanted to thank all of you for your responses and diversity in thought. Perhaps I am more spiritual than I realize and have already learned so much from all of you..whether of great faith in the church or floundering and struggling. I try to keep this open mind; that"what if" makes me seek for truth. We can agree or disagree..but I believe the truth is, we just don't know.Thanks and many hugs,JeanneYou can believe "we just don't know" for as long as you want, but there is a way to know in this life time and I and many others have found it. I believe the truth is that some people just haven't had faith given to them from God [on a particular issue] and they're basing their beliefs on somebody else's assurances. And I'm talking about God actually telling them and assuring them that [something in particular] is true. And by God I'm talking about our Father through Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.So for me the only things that might not be true that I believe are true are the things that I believe without God teliing me those things are true. And yes I do speculate and make guesses about things sometimes so there very well could be some things I believe, based on logic and reasoning, that might not be true. But for everything else I'm going by what God has told me is true, and I know God doesn't lie about anything.
Jeanne Posted September 7, 2014 Author Posted September 7, 2014 You can believe "we just don't know" for as long as you want, but there is a way to know in this life time and I and many others have found it. I believe the truth is that some people just haven't had faith given to them from God [on a particular issue] and they're basing their beliefs on somebody else's assurances. And I'm talking about God actually telling them and assuring them that [something in particular] is true. And by God I'm talking about our Father through Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.So for me the only things that might not be true that I believe are true are the things that I believe without God teliing me those things are true. And yes I do speculate and make guesses about things sometimes so there very well could be some things I believe, based on logic and reasoning, that might not be true. But for everything else I'm going by what God has told me is true, and I know God doesn't lie about anything.I am very glad for you that you have this assurance. See, I thought I did too..many times, many years ago..but can man lie and a prophet lie be the same thing? I know I am not making this clear..but to me, it is very hard to know anything anymore. My promises in many blessings have not come to fruitition..and of course, we can just blame me. But that isn't right either.
boblloyd91 Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 There's always the option that someone else lied to you... and you incorrectly labelled that person as the Lord in this life. Just saying, it is an option, however improbable you may think it.Care to elaborate on this?
Brian 2.0 Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 Care to elaborate on this?If someone told you, "God told me JS was a false prophet. And God doesn't lie."Would you believe that God him that? Or would you think the impressions he had that JS was a false prophet are possibly NOT from God, but from another source, including the man's own emotions?
The Nehor Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 Well, if that comes up I will probably be in hell so time to implement Operation Machiavelli and take over the whole operation.
Scott Lloyd Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 I know that so many of you have great faith. That you believe in your fathers and/or believe in the two young men or women who may have come to your door. This question is for you. Those of you have sacrificed those Temple promises with tithe, talents and sincere dedication; what would you do if when you passed away, so much of this was untrue? I am not being a stinker here..I would really like to know if you can think outside that box and grasp the sometimes hurt that is felt for others here on earth who feel so disllusioned. Thanks, JeanneTwo words: Paschal's wager.
The Nehor Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Two words: Paschal's wager.I am convinced that anyone who follows God because they are reasoning out a cost/benefit analysis using Pascal's wager is not going to be exalted.
Brian 2.0 Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Two words: Paschal's wager. Paschal's wager makes no sense as it assumes, in this case, that there is the your/Mormon interpretation of God, or no God. Throw in all possibilities of different types of Gods, including one that punishes you for believing certain Mormon doctrines, and the wager just doesn't mean anything anymore.
Scott Lloyd Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) I am convinced that anyone who follows God because they are reasoning out a cost/benefit analysis using Pascal's wager is not going to be exalted.In the long-run, no. But for someone who is just planting the seed of faith (or reviving faith that is flagging or wilting), it can be a start. Anything that sets people on the right pathway, I'm all for. Edited September 9, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Paschal's wager makes no sense as it assumes, in this case, that there is the your/Mormon interpretation of God, or no God. Throw in all possibilities of different types of Gods, including one that punishes you for believing certain Mormon doctrines, and the wager just doesn't mean anything anymore.In response to that, I would assert that believing Mormon doctrines (authentic ones) never did anyone any harm.
Scott Lloyd Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 I can see that with some, the mere mention of the phrase "Paschal's wager" is like waving a red cape in front of a bull. This is rather eye-opening, actually.
mnn727 Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) This is the kind of question the devil asked of Christ during His temptation in the wilderness. Play along and answer a question phrased in this manner and you demonstrate you are not firm in the faith and that you already have doubt. How do you think Nephi would answer this question? You have been repeatedly warned against condemning and questioning other posters' faith. You are suspended.Everyone has doubts. I've met many people very firm in the faith that still have some doubt. There is no sin in having doubts.Faith includes the possibility of doubt, that's why its called 'faith' and not 'proof' Edited September 10, 2014 by mnn727
Brian 2.0 Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 In response to that, I would assert that believing Mormon doctrines (authentic ones) never did anyone any harm. I will agree with that generally when you add "in this life" to the end. However unlikely you may think, there is a probability that it could provide you harm in the next life (just ask some staunch evangelicals!) And you have to take into account all probabilities in dealing with something like Paschal's wager. I can see that with some, the mere mention of the phrase "Paschal's wager" is like waving a red cape in front of a bull. This is rather eye-opening, actually. That's because it's a tired argument that falls apart taken one more step... and it's really really tempting to take it that next step to watch it fall apart
mnn727 Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 If they let me post from the other side, I'll come back and tell you all about it. If they don't, you get to find out just like the rest of humanity. I hear there will be an app for that soon (for posting from beyond the veil)
Scott Lloyd Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) I will agree with that generally when you add "in this life" to the end. However unlikely you may think, there is a probability that it could provide you harm in the next life (just ask some staunch evangelicals!) And you have to take into account all probabilities in dealing with something like Paschal's wager. That's because it's a tired argument that falls apart taken one more step... and it's really really tempting to take it that next step to watch it fall apart It doesn't necessarily fall apart. That assertion is very debatable. (That's not an invitation: I don't have time to debate it with you today.) And the "staunch Evangelicals" you speak of are wrong. Living the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ, properly understood, will do no one any harm. Edited September 9, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
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