Four Big Bangs: Theism Defended Against Atheism With Science

[Robert F. Smith]

I've never understood why some people want to presume that the beginning referred to in Genesis 1 and John 1 refers to the beginning of the universe or the place, itself, where all things in it exist, instead of just the beginning when this planet was created for us from elements that already existed. It's as if some people think the word beginning refers to an ultimate beginning for ALL things, except for maybe God, instead of just the beginning of one particular thing or event which itself is just another event of the same kind that has been going on forever with no ultimate beginning, and which will have no ultimate end.

Not for me. I reject ideas only when I know they don't agree with what I know is true when my knowledge is based on what God has told me is true.

Good.

[Ahab]

The Big Bang theory is not about the ultimate beginning of everything, but it did happen, whether it makes sense to you or not.

The "it" that happened does not include an event in which all of the matter in the universe was condensed together into an object smaller than an atom, or as small as a baseball, or a basketball, or a planet the size ours is now, or our sun in our solar system, or our galaxy, or anything else of any other size, because the universe is and always has been infinite in size and any idea that it was ever in any way smaller than infinite is just plain silly.

[MormonFreeThinker]

the universe is and always has been infinite in size and any idea that it was ever in any way smaller than infinite is just plain silly.

 

I am talking about our observable universe, not everything. 

Our observable universe was smaller than a atom. Our observable universe is not infinite, our observations have a limit.  

[The Nehor]

The "it" that happened does not include an event in which all of the matter in the universe was condensed together into an object smaller than an atom, or as small as a baseball, or a basketball, or a planet the size ours is now, or our sun in our solar system, or our galaxy, or anything else of any other size, because the universe is and always has been infinite in size and any idea that it was ever in any way smaller than infinite is just plain silly.

According to the Big Bang theory the Universe was not infinite. It did not even exist. Saying an idea is silly is not a refutation. Quantum Physics is silly and odd and counterintuitive. It also happens to be true

[MormonFreeThinker]

According to the Big Bang theory the Universe was not infinite. It did not even exist. Saying an idea is silly is not a refutation. Quantum Physics is silly and odd and counterintuitive. It also happens to be true

 

The Big Bang theory does not say that the universe was Finite or Infinite, we simply don't know.

The Big Bang was the beginning of our known universe.

The Big Bang may just be the beginning of our "local universe" 

Edited August 1, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[mfbukowski]

My point was that one could just as easily argue that for baseball to exist, you need the same 4 Big Bangs.

 

The argument itself has nothing to do with God, it has to do with alleged gaps in the way the author thinks about things.  All of the "gaps" have other explanations which he does nothing to refute.

 

It's just a bad argument in my opinion.

[mfbukowski]

and some say that it is possible that aliens created our observable universe, Paul Davies imagines that in the far future humans will create universes too,  see  39:00 - 40:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dNm6K1h9F8

Every time you look at a starry sky, your mind is creating a universe within it.

 

Creating universes is what humans do.

[mfbukowski]

I am talking about our observable universe, not everything. 

Our observable universe was smaller than a atom. Our observable universe is not infinite, our observations have a limit.  

This is the crux of the issue really.

 

And what is beyond our ability to observe might just as well not be there.  It makes no difference in our lives and in a real sense doesn't "exist" as far as we are concerned.

 

That is what I mean when I say that WE create universes.  We create the only universe we can know about- and each of us makes his own little version of as much of the "universe" as we individually can know about.

 

In that sense, we all live in our little worlds we all have created for ourselves, and the creator of mankind created the universe all mankind shares.

[The Nehor]

The Big Bang theory does not say that the universe was Finite or Infinite, we simply don't know.

The Big Bang was the beginning of our known universe.

The Big Bang may just be the beginning of our "local universe"

The term "local universe" is usually used to mean the part of the Universe close to us so that does not really make sense.

It actually does say something about infinity. It argues (rather convincingly I think) that space and time both came into being at the time of the Big Bang. Without space the Universe was neither infinite or finite.

I have no idea what you mean by known universe. There are some multiverse theories that posit multiple universes. Do you mean things inside the Universe that are unknown or other universes?

Edited August 2, 2014 by The Nehor

[VideoGameJunkie]

It's obvious God had a hand in the big bang, and the dinosaurs and Neanderthals probably lived while Adam and Eve were in the garden. Or something like that.

[Stone holm]

That is a God of the Gaps argument. Science can not posit any God or Godlike force and still be science. That isn't an argument for or against any God. Just that God is not allowed into science.

 

What Dr. Tyson is saying is that you can believe anything you want, but that belief has no evidentiary value in science. We don't know before hand what will turn out to be beneficial or not in any science. I seriously doubt Ben Franklin had the slightest clue as to what we can do with electricity. When he decided to fly a kite in a lightning storm.

Not sure you have to exclude God from science.

[BCSpace]

Question Begging.

 

PS; Still a God of the Gaps argument.

 

My qualification ensures it doesn't fit the defintion of a Gaps excuse.

[BCSpace]

Very entertaining, but I don't think that unanswered questions are a way to prove or infer the existence of God.

 

I don't either.  The video also doesn't seem to do so. It's more of a disqualification of Atheist arguments which defends Theism via "The best defense is a good offense" strategy.

[BCSpace]

We are still presuming that science actually has something to do with religion.

 

 

I do so presume.  At the very least, we are commanded to study it (D&C 88:78-80).  I presume D&C 130:18 does not refer only to spiritual intelligence and the doctrine seems to imply that indeed, it does not.

 

In terms of application, do we not apply the scientific method to learning spiritual truths? John 7:17, Hebrews 11:1, Alma 32

 

And of course the obvious; God must understand the workings of the universe to bring about the Creation and His other purposes.  That means God is a scientist.

 

etc.

Edited August 2, 2014 by BCSpace

[The Nehor]

My qualification ensures it doesn't fit the defintion of a Gaps excuse.

 

No, it really doesn't.

[MormonFreeThinker]

The term "local universe" is usually used to mean the part of the Universe close to us so that does not really make sense.

 

The term "local universe" can mean many things, for example our bubble universe, our known universe, our Big Bang. 

 

It actually does say something about infinity. It argues (rather convincingly I think) that space and time both came into being at the time of the Big Bang. Without space the Universe was neither infinite or finite.

 

Space is required for Big Bangs to happen. It is explained here, see 8:45 to 12:30

 

 

 

and here, see 0:55 to 1:05

Edited August 2, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[LOSTONE]

“ If ” the big bang thing did happened ( and it’s an if ), what caused it? There is no scientific data to say it even happened for sure much less why. It’s strictly a theory only. However, if it did happened, God made it happen. Don’t believe me? Okay, prove me wrong. You can’t prove me anymore wrong about God causing the big bang to happen than scientist can prove the big band is anything more than a theory, much less a cause for it.

I don’t need to question everything to justify my believe in God. I just need to keep my faith in God. That is what makes me a believer after all. Not Q and A.

[thesometimesaint]

When i go out and see things like Mt. Rushmore I dont look for ways that nature could have made it- it shows a design and is clearly man-made. That isnt a god of the gaps argument. Its sound logic at work. But yet, we can take something in nature which is far more complex, has way more features and is alive and think it is just the product of nature. Thats just complete ignorance at work. If we cant see that nature is the product of an intelligent designer then we are doomed to fail as a society.

 

The old tired Watchmakers Analogy.

 

Please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

[thesometimesaint]

“ If ” the big bang thing did happened ( and it’s an if ), what caused it? There is no scientific data to say it even happened for sure much less why. It’s strictly a theory only. However, if it did happened, God made it happen. Don’t believe me? Okay, prove me wrong. You can’t prove me anymore wrong about God causing the big bang to happen than scientist can prove the big band is anything more than a theory, much less a cause for it.

I don’t need to question everything to justify my believe in God. I just need to keep my faith in God. That is what makes me a believer after all. Not Q and A.

 

Argument from Ignorance

SEE

 

You do know what a theory is don't you?

 

The First Second.

SEE http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/big-bang-theory4.htm

 

I have no problem with God. I do have problems with what some mortal humans claim he did/does.

Edited August 2, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[rodheadlee]

No. http://www.pnas.org/content/95/21/12386.full

Great, can you summarize that in little people English? I'm a carpenter not a scientist. I'd like to understand, thanks.

[thesometimesaint]

I've never understood why some people want to presume that the beginning referred to in Genesis 1 and John 1 refers to the beginning of the universe or the place, itself, where all things in it exist, instead of just the beginning when this planet was created for us from elements that already existed. It's as if some people think the word beginning refers to an ultimate beginning for ALL things, except for maybe God, instead of just the beginning of one particular thing or event which itself is just another event of the same kind that has been going on forever with no ultimate beginning, and which will have no ultimate end.

Not for me. I reject ideas only when I know they don't agree with what I know is true when my knowledge is based on what God has told me is true.

 

Because they believe when Genesis 1:1 says " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

² And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

³ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

⁴ And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

⁵ And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day"

Both the earth and the heavens(everything not earth) was literally created in/on the first day(24 hr period).

 

God can do anything he wants. But from everything we know from science our universe started some 14 billion years ago and will end some 100,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years from now. Entropy works.

[thesometimesaint]

Great, can you summarize that in little people English? I'm a carpenter not a scientist. I'd like to understand, thanks.

 

I am not that type of scientist, and I don't play one on the television. I'm just an old retired psychiatric social worker.

 

What it essentially means is that Darwin was right that "lineages can diverge gradually over time and that the fossil record contains gaps that can greatly reduce the chances of finding fossils for certain periods or particular types of organisms". Or IOW we will probably never have all the representative fossils from every time period and from every organism. Nor it is necessary to have them for a good picture of evolution.

[Stone holm]

I am not sure the Big Bang really resolves any of the theological issues. I read the Grand Design and it was supremely underwhelming in its logic. For Mormons, I suspect that the Big Bang is even less relevant than to other religions because we put less insistence upon the use of the philosophical descriptives. Where most modern religions see anything which puts human characteristics on God as a flaw in description, we embrace those characteristics.

[The Nehor]

There is no scientific data to say it even happened for sure much less why. It’s strictly a theory only. However, if it did happened, God made it happen. Don’t believe me? Okay, prove me wrong. You can’t prove me anymore wrong about God causing the big bang to happen than scientist can prove the big band is anything more than a theory, much less a cause for it.

I don’t need to question everything to justify my believe in God. I just need to keep my faith in God. That is what makes me a believer after all. Not Q and A.

 

There is scientific data for it having happened. There is currently no explanation for why it happened. Plenty of speculation but they are very difficult to test.

[MormonFreeThinker]

“ If ” the big bang thing did happened ( and it’s an if ), what caused it? There is no scientific data to say it even happened for sure much less why. It’s strictly a theory only. However, if it did happened, God made it happen. Don’t believe me? Okay, prove me wrong. You can’t prove me anymore wrong about God causing the big bang to happen than scientist can prove the big band is anything more than a theory, much less a cause for it.

 

Scientists have observed that the  our known universe is expanding, so that means that the universe was smaller in the distant past. There is a stronger evidence that the Big Bang happened, it's called the microwave background. 

 

We do not know if God caused the Big Bang, the scriptures talk about the creation of the Earth and other worlds, but the scriptures do no talk about the creation of our known universe, and the Temple account clarifies Genesis 1. 

Edited August 4, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker