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Four Big Bangs: Theism Defended Against Atheism With Science

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thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
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Scientists have observed that the  our known universe is expanding, so that means that the universe was smaller in the distant past. There is a stronger evidence that the Big Bang happened, it's called the microwave background. 

 

We do not know if God caused the Big Bang, the scriptures talk about the creation of the Earth, but the scriptures do no talk about the creation of our known universe, and the Temple account clarifies Genesis 1. 

 

Depends on how literal Genesis 1 is taken.

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Jude2 Community Regular

Jude2

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The Big Bang 

 

The Big Bang was an expansion event, we do not know if it was a natural event or if God caused it, but we as Mormons do not believe that the Big Bang was the absolute beginning of everything, we do not believe in creation ex nihilo. If the universe is infinite, Big Bangs happen all the time. 

 

The fine tuning argument is the only good argument (that uses physics) for the existence of God, it is better than the First Cause argument. The fine tuning argument is a good argument, but it doesn't prove the existence of God. 

 

Abiogenesis

 

If abiogenesis was not a natural process, then the fine tuning argument doesn't work. You need a natural abiognesis for the fine tuning argument to work, you can't have it both ways. Either our known universe is fine-tuned to allow life, or life is fine tuned for the universe.  

 

For me, it is better to believe that God created life using natural processes, but abiognesis can also happen completely naturally, for example, there could be meaningless life in one of the moons of Jupiter.  If the universe is infinite, Abiogenesis and Evolution happen all the time.

 

 

 

I’ve have been wondering, Br. Hellings gives three points; 
Matter is conserved, Everything is Matter and The universe is Infinite & Eternal 
 
but might we add one more, “the course of the Lord is one eternal round”
 
“For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round” 1 Nephi 10:19 
 
It’s almost like he’s giving us a little hint. 
 
Atoms are structured in an eternal round. 
Our solar system is an eternal round.
The galaxy is an eternal round.
 
Instead of expanding might the different galaxies be moving in one eternal round also.  
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Stone holm Grand Master

Stone holm

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I’ve have been wondering, Br. Hellings gives three points; 

Matter is conserved, Everything is Matter and The universe is Infinite & Eternal 

 

but might we add one more, “the course of the Lord is one eternal round”

 

“For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round” 1 Nephi 10:19 

 

It’s almost like he’s giving us a little hint. 

 

Atoms are structured in an eternal round. 

Our solar system is an eternal round.

The galaxy is an eternal round.

 

Instead of expanding might the different galaxies be moving in one eternal round also.

"One eternal round" meaning?

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thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

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At one point there was no matter in the universe. It was all energy some 14 billion years ago.

 

The universe is some 100 billion light years across.  It will end some 100,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years from now. Granted that a long time but not eternal.

 

Energy and matter is the stuff of what this known universe is made of.

 

96% of the universe is composed of stuff we know nothing about

 

The universe is expanding at an increasing rate caused by that 96% of the stuff we know nothing about.

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The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

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God can do anything he wants. But from everything we know from science our universe started some 14 billion years ago and will end some 100,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years from now. Entropy works.

 

If all those old stories about God slaying the ancient primordial beast of chaos mean anything it definitely means that God can kick the living snot out of entropy.

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thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

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If all those old stories about God slaying the ancient primordial beast of chaos mean anything it definitely means that God can kick the living snot out of entropy.

 

Maybe. Does God need outside energy? If so, how much and from what source? :unknw:  Who knows but in that far off distant time the Gods will say once again: "Let there be light", and it will be. :good:

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USU78 Grand Master

USU78

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At one point there was no matter in the universe. It was all energy some 14 billion years ago.

 

I think it's more accurate to say that, according to the BBT [not the show about Sheldon, Leonard and their friends], under the enormous pressures in play that forced our observable universe into a singularity, there is really no way to sort out energy vs matter especially where, according to Einstein, matter = energy anyway.  Thus, saying "there is no matter" makes no sense.  Matter is simply an expression of matter/energy "bundles," as it were, just as ice is an expression of the compound, H20.

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USU78 Grand Master

USU78

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If all those old stories about God slaying the ancient primordial beast of chaos mean anything it definitely means that God can kick the living snot out of entropy.

 

Maybe entropy is the Chaos Beast?

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thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

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I think it's more accurate to say that, according to the BBT [not the show about Sheldon, Leonard and their friends], under the enormous pressures in play that forced our observable universe into a singularity, there is really no way to sort out energy vs matter especially where, according to Einstein, matter = energy anyway.  Thus, saying "there is no matter" makes no sense.  Matter is simply an expression of matter/energy "bundles," as it were, just as ice is an expression of the compound, H20.

 

Agreed. I'll restate it to what we normally understand as matter didn't exist.

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USU78 Grand Master

USU78

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Matter cant exist as anything but matter.

 

I suspect "matter," as used by JSJr, includes both matter/energy that we can observe, and other stuff that we cannot.  Hence, the usage in scripture of "no such thing as immaterial matter."

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Ahab Grand Master

Ahab

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Because they believe when Genesis 1:1 says " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day"

Both the earth and the heavens(everything not earth) was literally created in/on the first day(24 hr period).

You didn't explain why some people interpret those scriptures that way. You're just saying some people do, but there is another (and I say better and correct) way to interpret those scriptures.

God can do anything he wants. But from everything we know from science our universe started some 14 billion years ago and will end some 100,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years from now. Entropy works.

I'm looking forward to seeing some very surprised looks on some people's faces when they see the universe is still here when they think it should have ended.
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mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

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Maybe. Does God need outside energy? If so, how much and from what source? :unknw:  Who knows but in that far off distant time the Gods will say once again: "Let there be light", and it will be. :good:

That five hour energy stuff is supposed to be pretty good, but I haven't tried it myself.

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thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

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You didn't explain why some people interpret those scriptures that way. You're just saying some people do, but there is another (and I say better and correct) way to interpret those scriptures.

I'm looking forward to seeing some very surprised looks on some people's faces when they see the universe is still here when they think it should have ended.

 

There is a small but vocal group of largely Christian biblical literalists. Why? I don't know why. Such doesn't make any sense to me or my LDS Christian religion.

 

I am too. But that is such a long time into the future that I won't be loosing any sleep tonight over it. ;)

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Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

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If it is any consolation I like you just fine.  :friends: We just disagree on that topic.

The only thing I do not like about this forum is that they randomly ban you and never say why and you cant even go back to follow along to even see how the discussion is going. Some people just feel holier than thou I guess.

I feel that we both agree on more than most others think, we just have a different philosophy when it comes to science. Nothing wrong with that.

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Nofear Veteran

Nofear

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I think that it is very interesting that scientists are speculating that aliens created our known universe, and that we humans could create universes in the distant future...

You may find the Mormon Transhumanist's New God Argument interesting. I'm personally not persuaded as to the tack that most take on it being a bit more orthodox in my theology than most of them are. But, it is interesting nonetheless.

Edited by Nofear
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