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Four Big Bangs: Theism Defended Against Atheism With Science

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By BCSpace
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Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

So suppose God set up the Big Bang in such a way that, knowing the future, He could expect life to form and humanity to eventually evolve without any further intervention beyond waiting for normal physical laws to sort out the problem. Would that be Intelligent Design or random processes?

What you are asking is kind of ridiculous. A loaded dice scenario as many propose basically asks for God loading a pair of dice in such a manner that it makes God in his "role" as Creator still stand but just that we cannot actually detect anything intelligent that he actually did. Its basically a godless paradigm that kindly dismisses God from his Creation. You are basically asking for a scenario where the laws of physics in their natural actions somehow do magical things like create a solar system and then somehow magically create an earth with perfect ideal conditions that allow life and then reactions happening that write a code for life and then life coming into existence and then becoming complex. But, to top it all off, you will never admit that the laws of physics that God caused to be put in place and the actions he caused were done in such an intelligent manner that it wasnt random at all but somehow carried in their actions special intelligently loaded abilities. Its your basic sham- just dismiss God cause thats what you are really saying anyway.

Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

As an LDS, I deny Intelligent designer.  

 

God did not design anything, but was the intelligent organizer because the designs have existed for eternity.  There is neither a first chicken nor egg, they are co=existent.  For every chicken there was an egg, and for every egg there was a chicken.

Regardless how you say it though the "design" element of intelligence exists and was not randomly placed into existence on this planet by chance causes in a unguided scenario. Whether we use the word "organizer" or "designer" it basically boils down to the same thing that "intelligent designs we see in the universe only come from intelligent designs preceding them.

The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

What you are asking is kind of ridiculous. A loaded dice scenario as many propose basically asks for God loading a pair of dice in such a manner that it makes God in his "role" as Creator still stand but just that we cannot actually detect anything intelligent that he actually did. Its basically a godless paradigm that kindly dismisses God from his Creation. You are basically asking for a scenario where the laws of physics in their natural actions somehow do magical things like create a solar system and then somehow magically create an earth with perfect ideal conditions that allow life and then reactions happening that write a code for life and then life coming into existence and then becoming complex. But, to top it all off, you will never admit that the laws of physics that God caused to be put in place and the actions he caused were done in such an intelligent manner that it wasnt random at all but somehow carried in their actions special intelligently loaded abilities. Its your basic sham- just dismiss God cause thats what you are really saying anyway.

 

I said above that I don't believe this scenario but I was asking whether you would think such a situation would qualify as intelligent design. Your response hems and haws around it saying it kind of takes God out so you did not answer the question.

 

Your rebuttal to the scenario above is that this scenario removes God.....not sure why. If I go to an automated assembly line and program it perfectly and then turn it on is that somehow less Godly then going through and doing the work manually? Do you know the mind of God well enough to make a determination as to how God would create things?

Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

I said above that I don't believe this scenario but I was asking whether you would think such a situation would qualify as intelligent design. Your response hems and haws around it saying it kind of takes God out so you did not answer the question.

 

Your rebuttal to the scenario above is that this scenario removes God.....not sure why. If I go to an automated assembly line and program it perfectly and then turn it on is that somehow less Godly then going through and doing the work manually? Do you know the mind of God well enough to make a determination as to how God would create things?

Your proposed loaded dice scenario is not intelligent design, its a fairytale fantasy- a work of complete science fiction. The big bang is not a preprogrammed assembly line that once set in motion falls like dominoes exactly into Gods plans. It requires too many magical things that defy the known laws of physics to happn. For instance- Nowhere in nature do we see the law of gravity create specified intelligent information or anything even close to rembling such. In fact, no known law in physics is capable, by itself void of an intelligent cause, to build intelligent particles or create actions that lead to the development of specified intelligent and purposeful information. We know the laws of physics quite well and what we know shows just a predictable cause and effect producing no specified intelligent information as a result of its natural actions. Life came into existence here on this planet because life preceded it and brought it here. Scientific study has shown that life only comes from life preceding it. We know the mechanism that propagates life- its other life preceding it. God thus probably worked through this natural scientific means to bring life to this planet. Adam after all was the "son" of God in which the seed of God continues. Through natural and known means God thus propogated his seed to the earth. As for all other life- the same processes took place. Seeds were brought here, planted and grown. The animal kingdom were also brought here to propagate their species as well.

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

So then, how did the complex system of DNA as an intelligent design become manifest in this supposed natural selection environment that in turn supposedly formulated the process we call life?

Perhaps more important is the big question of how is it possible that the random mixing of chemicals in an environment lead to specified intelligent information?

 

SEE Abiogenesis

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

And that is the Crux of the issue at hand. How do theistic evolutionists reconcile the need and importance of God and then applying that need into actions in nature that cause life to come into existence? I hear a lot of evolutionists here say they belive in the Creator but then refuse to place the Creator into the mix because doing so is how Intelligent Design is defined. So, in reality, its either one believes in godless evolution or in intelligent design. You cannot have it both ways.

 

I believe in God, and I'm very much a scientist.

 

Science can not posit any God for the simple reason that he is an uncontrollable variable. Science works by controlling the variables. No matter the experiment the results are always consistent with a God. IE; Does putting out a striped stick in a herd of cattle produce striped cattle? The Bible claims it does

SEE Genesis 30:37-43

 

Science including the science of Evolution is not Godless. To say nothing of God is not to say that God is nothing. Science makes no claim about any God or the lack there of.

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Ask yourself this one question, it thus defines all-

Is God and his intelligent designs required for life to come into existence or can life, all on its own, arise in the universe void of any intelligent plan to bring it to pass?

If God is required then you must believe in Intelligent Design.

 

That is a Post Hoc ergo Prompter Hoc logical fallacy argument.

 

God is not a required element in science. How would we know if it happened any other way? To put it in simpler terms. We know what 2+2=. What we don't know is what 2+2+God=.

 

Which God?

Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

I believe in God, and I'm very much a scientist.

 

Science can not posit any God for the simple reason that he is an uncontrollable variable. Science works by controlling the variables. No matter the experiment the results are always consistent with a God. IE; Does putting out a striped stick in a herd of cattle produce striped cattle? The Bible claims it does

SEE Genesis 30:37-43

 

Science including the science of Evolution is not Godless. To say nothing of God is not to say that God is nothing. Science makes no claim about any God or the lack there of.

Well, thats your opinion, thats all. Science just observes what already exists. What sciece is thus viewing is intelligent designs everywhere we turn. We know two things for sure- 1. Intelligent designs exist. 2. Nature is incapable of creating such intelligent designs.

Of course Darwinian evolutionists will keep nashing their heads in disbelief.

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Well, thats your opinion, thats all. Science just observes what already exists. What sciece is thus viewing is intelligent designs everywhere we turn. We know two things for sure- 1. Intelligent designs exist. 2. Nature is incapable of creating such intelligent designs.

Of course Darwinian evolutionists will keep nashing their heads in disbelief.

 

Incorrect. Science is able to make logical predictions about past an future events.

 

Intelligent Design is a purely religious concept devoid of any science.

 

Yet nature did, and does.

 

I for one am not gnashing my teeth or bashing my head because of my beliefs. I'm perfectly comfortable with God and science.

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

Keep believing your godless science- it will always keep you in the dark. Some are quite happy in the dark.

 

I don't believe in any science, Godless or otherwise.  I merely accept i as the best explanation we have so far for what we observe in our universe. Without science we would still be sitting in caves afraid of things that go bump in the night.

Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

Incorrect. Science is able to make logical predictions about past an future events.

 

Intelligent Design is a purely religious concept devoid of any science.

 

Yet nature did, and does.

 

I for one am not gnashing my teeth or bashing my head because of my beliefs. I'm perfectly comfortable with God and science.

So, DNA is now a religious concept? Gotcha.

Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

Have you stopped beating your wife? A simple yes or no will suffice.

What are you talking about? I have never laid even a finger on my wife. She is my Queen and as such I treat her as royalty!

thesometimesaint Grand Master

thesometimesaint

Posted
Posted

What are you talking about? I have never laid even a finger on my wife. She is my Queen and as such I treat her as royalty!

 

You didn't answer the question as asked.

 

See how it works? You presented me with a Sophie's Choice.

Ahab Grand Master

Ahab

Posted
Posted (edited)

Ask yourself this one question, it thus defines all-

Is God and his intelligent designs required for life to come into existence or can life, all on its own, arise in the universe void of any intelligent plan to bring it to pass?

If God is required then you must believe in Intelligent Design.

Are you asking if God had to necessarily be involved in the creation or perpetuation of chickens and their eggs, or anything else in existence?

We're told that matter is eternal and I believe that matter has always existed in the form of chickens and their eggs, as well as other birds and their eggs, and bees and pollen and everything else there is now and always has been in existence.

Some people seem to think that at some point in the past there was only God and nothing else, while some others believe there was also some other forms of matter, like maybe just some dust or maybe some planets with some elements on and in them. Not many seem to realize that what there is now has always existed with all things going through various phases. Like how there have always been parents for all of the races or species of life as well as children for every parent, as well as some children or offspring who remain single and do not perpetuate their own species.

And no I am not saying that macro evolution happens.

Edited by Ahab
Rob Osborn Grand Master

Rob Osborn

Posted
Posted

You didn't answer the question as asked.

 

See how it works? You presented me with a Sophie's Choice.

You are a jackass

 

And you are a poster who has been removed from the thread.

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