Christopher Hitchens Caught Affirming Spiritual Experience as Valid

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

The Bible is not God's word.  No scripture is.  It is the communication of men who were supposedly told to write.  Even the Mormon Nephi had no idea why he was writing!

Take the good from where you find it.  Reject the rest while keeping the perspective that you (along with EVERYONE ELSE down here on earth) can't see or understand everything, and maybe your perspectives on certain recorded events in the 'scriptures' may change.

I am finally letting the crappy parts of Mormonism go.  It's great.  It's brought me more peace and closer to my maker, despite the warnings I've heard for years that there is only misery for those that let go of the 'iron rod.'

Keep going, keep asking questions about you, goodness, and god, and you'll figure out more and more.

I like your attitude, keep asking questions, that's what God wants of us, I believe.

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So let me point something out here.

Is what you are saying that you are following your own voice within you?

Isn't that is exactly what you're supposed to do. ?

Why would you follow someone else who is not inside of you?

The kingdom of heaven is in your heart.

 

Thanks, I forgot you've always said that the kingdom of heaven is in your heart.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

Spiritual events happening ≠ spiritual experiences are “valid” ≠ "God" exists

Why not?

That's YOUR religious belief in positivism, which is itself a faith position. The concept of equal validity within language games says you are wrong. 

Are you able to speak to that question?

Do you want to take on the philosophical position of equal validity within language games? I'd love to discuss it with you.

[Analytics]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why not?

That's YOUR religious belief in positivism, which is itself a faith position. The concept of equal validity within language games says you are wrong. 

Are you able to speak to that question?

Do you want to take on the philosophical position of equal validity within language games? I'd love to discuss it with you.

That isn't my belief in positivism--religious or otherwise. It is a sincere desire to understand what most people mean by "God." 

I have no idea what "the concept of equal validity within language games" refers to. My guess (which is probably wrong) is that your point is that what Hitchens refers to as "conscience" is what you refer to as "God", therefore if he believes in conscience he believes in God, because the common defiition of God is no more valid than your idiosyncratic one. Am I close?

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, Analytics said:

That isn't my belief in positivism--religious or otherwise. It is a sincere desire to understand what most people mean by "God." 

I have no idea what "the concept of equal validity within language games" refers to. My guess (which is probably wrong) is that your point is that what Hitchens refers to as "conscience" is what you refer to as "God", therefore if he believes in conscience he believes in God, because the common defiition of God is no more valid than your idiosyncratic one. Am I close?

I never said that

I thought it was clear in the title of the thread, and the video.

Essentially what he said is that every sane person has a spirit within him telling him what is right.  "Daemon".

He himself used several words for it, and one was "spirit ".

I interpreted that statement as, in our language game, as spiritual experience.

For more about the deflationary theory of Truth see here:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by mfbukowski

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I never said that

I thought it was clear in the title of the thread, and the video.

Essentially what he said is that every sane person has a spirit within him telling him what is right.  "Daemon".

He himself used several words for it, and one was "spirit ".

I interpreted that statement as, in our language game, as spiritual experience.

For more about the deflationary theory of Truth see here:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/

 

I think that's his point and likely the kind of point Hitchens was after (although I didn't click on your link at the start).  Everyone has these little experiences.  It doesn't equate to the little inner experience we have is a valid spiritual experience, nor does it equate to God being behind it.  That's the direction of my own response too, so...there ya go.  

[Analytics]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I never said that

I thought it was clear in the title of the thread, and the video.

Essentially what he said is that every sane person has a spirit within him telling him what is right.  "Daemon".

He himself used several words for it, and one was "spirit ".

I interpreted that statement as, in our language game, as spiritual experience.

For more about the deflationary theory of Truth see here:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/

 

I agree 100% with what stemelbow said above.

I don't really subscribe to the deflationary theory of truth. It seems like you are using this as a way to equivocate and extract something from what Hitchens said that he did not intend.  

[cinepro]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You only need to listen to about the first two minutes and 30 seconds to catch Christopher Hitchens admit that we are all born with a conscience, something inside us, that guides our moral compasses.

 

I don't believe that everyone is born with what we would call a "conscience", or that there is a huge commonality among those that have "consciences."  There is probably a lot of uniformity in different cultures, but I wonder what absolutes there are once you start comparing different cultures to each other, especially over different eras?

Unless you have the rules written down and being taught to people, there seems to be quite a bit of latitude.  Certainly, if a Martian landed and took a survey of all the different things people feel good or bad about, I don't think they'd theorize there's a supernatural force at play giving everyone the same "conscience" to guide them.

[CA Steve]

11 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Certainly, if a Martian landed and took a survey of all the different things people feel good or bad about, I don't think they'd theorize there's a supernatural force at play giving everyone the same "conscience" to guide them.

That's because the Martian had never read Rorty. 😛

[member10_1]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You only need to listen to about the first two minutes and 30 seconds to catch Christopher Hitchens admit that we are all born with a conscience, something inside us, that guides our moral compasses.

After that I think the theists in the debate blow it and don't follow up, but stick to their pre-planned arguments and miss the opportunity right under their noses!

https://youtu.be/bx1yXvcT2kw

Hitchens is a noted atheist and Positivist who believes that any statement is "nonsense" if it cannot be verified through objective evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens

He is known for "Hitchens Razor" which virtually defines positivism itself

 And yet he believes that the answer to the question "Why would you do the right thing when no one is watching?" leads him to quote Socrates who speaks of a "daemon" or "spirit" - variously translated- to gives our lives direction, a kind of "voice" that everyone has inside of us.

At one point he almost uses the word "spirit" to describe this "daemon"- pronounces the "s" and then switches terms hopefully before anyone notices the "S"-Word. 

So atheists and agnostics- do you have a conscience?

(And please let's not get into the argument that one has to believe in God to be moral- I readily concede one does not have to be a theist to be a moral person)

So what if the James 1, Moroni 10, and all that we call "revelation" can be described as coming from this "Daemon"?

Does that mean that all moral atheists are tacit theists- not because of their moral behavior but the EXPERIENCE of making moral choices seems to come from an inside "voice"?

What IS that "voice"?

Where is his evidence for the existence of such a "Being/ Daemon/ Spirit

I brought this up in another thread but I thought it deserved its own so as not to hijack the other thread- 

I admit readily that this "Other" outside ourselves can deliver wisdom and all we need for a meaningful life to us, and I use the word "revelation" to describe what I personally hear from that "voice"

I know the church likes to slice and dice this into "The Holy Ghost" and the "Light of Christ" and the "Second Comforter" (perhaps) but I find it hard to define them all that closely from experience.

I KNOW (ie am totally psychologically certain) that such a phenomenon exists and has been a benefit to my life.  I call this Other in my consciousness "God".

At some point it all gets pretty undefinable and I don't see much point in trying to slice and dice it further.

So if everyone has this "Daemon" speaking to him- isn't that admitted that everyone has "God revealing wisdom" to him?

What's the  pragmatic difference?

If it is a distinction without a difference in our lives is it even a valid distinction?

The difference is that people who don’t use the words I’ve been taught to use are easily identified as outsiders. My tribe and I can then engage in our bonding rituals wherein we mock the outsiders and praise our superior choice of words to describe something that is ineffable. It’s quite cathartic.

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not speaking of Jesus, I was speaking on Abraham. That never sat well with me, nor the test Joseph Smith gave Heber when he asked for Heber's wife. This kind of behaviour isn't of God, it's man made.

I understood that you were talking of Abraham, but Abraham's story emulates the story of Christ. It also demonstrates the meaning of having an eye single to God's glory. Too many worship at the God of this world that tells them eat a little, sin a little and all will be well. You can follow your passions wherever they may lead you and it is okay because God made you that way. To be a disciple of Jesus Christ is to become a new creature, a new being that is willing to follow him, to observe his commandments. 

You say it is man made because you have been influenced by  - how many of those Podcasts do you listen to? - Not a single one of them has an understanding of scripture or history. Some - the Mormon Stories guy in particular - almost prides himself on his ignorance of such things. Instead of listening to those that sound of tinkling brass, listen and study those that teach the words of Christ. There are just so many sources - not just LDS - that will lead you in Light and Truth. It both saddens me and angers me how many snakes blather on and lead God's children away from truth. 

[SouthernMo]

14 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

It both saddens me and angers me how many snakes blather on and lead God's children away from truth. 

I hope you find the peace and rest from your anger and sadness that the Atonement offers.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think that's his point and likely the kind of point Hitchens was after (although I didn't click on your link at the start).  Everyone has these little experiences.  It doesn't equate to the little inner experience we have is a valid spiritual experience, nor does it equate to God being behind it.  That's the direction of my own response too, so...there ya go.  

So read it then.

Of course it doesn't "equate"

That's okay I guess we're not communicating.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I don't believe that everyone is born with what we would call a "conscience", or that there is a huge commonality among those that have "consciences."  There is probably a lot of uniformity in different cultures, but I wonder what absolutes there are once you start comparing different cultures to each other, especially over different eras?

Unless you have the rules written down and being taught to people, there seems to be quite a bit of latitude.  Certainly, if a Martian landed and took a survey of all the different things people feel good or bad about, I don't think they'd theorize there's a supernatural force at play giving everyone the same "conscience" to guide them.

Prove that, not that it matters what he would say anyway

So now we are trusting Martian philosophy?

I am sure they know about deflationary truth

That would explain their superior technology.

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I hope you find the peace and rest from your anger and sadness that the Atonement offers.

You crack me up. Seriously, your grasp of the situation is based on ignorance and a complete lack of understanding of either party involved in the conversation. You might want to wait a few years interacting with others before you begin to enter into the conversation between two people. 

Otherwise, stay up on that proud horse you prance on and carry on. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I hope you find the peace and rest from your anger and sadness that the Atonement offers.

Well in my experience it's only around here that the atonement offers anger and sadness.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

Certainly, if a Martian landed and took a survey of all the different things people feel good or bad about, I don't think they'd theorize there's a supernatural force at play giving everyone the same "conscience" to guide them.

We don't even need a hypothetical Martian. We have historians and anthropologists (and historical anthropologists) and travel literature (especially from before when the Euro-American colonisation of the mind really started taking hold and producing, at least outwardly, an emergent monoculture).

I personally believe there is some evidence that people embrace certain belief systems because they appeal to an inner desire for something better, but the reality is that unless/until (or even if) that happens, systems of morality across societies have been literally all over the place.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

Certainly, if a Martian landed and took a survey of all the different things people feel good or bad about, I don't think they'd theorize there's a supernatural force at play giving everyone the same "conscience" to guide them.

If a Martian landed and observed a rock concert, a soccer game,  or a line dance, he would say to his second in command, “Xwyxjjyxz, let’s move on. No intelligent life here,”

Edited April 24, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[USU78]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Well in my experience it's only around here that the atonement offers anger and sadness.

Nice of you to choose amusement when confronted by adolescent DBery.

Wish I had your Wah.

[USU78]

24 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If a Martian landed and observed a rock concert, a soccer game,  or a line dance, he would say to his second in command, “Xwyxjjyxz, let’s move on. No intelligent life here,”

What've you got against the Achy Breaky?

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

The Bible is not God's word.  No scripture is.  It is the communication of men who were supposedly told to write.  Even the Mormon Nephi had no idea why he was writing!

Interesting. Uncertainty and doubt are not words usually associated with Nephi. Granted, he once wrote that he was unsure why he was being commanded to keep a certain record, but he trusted that God had good reasons for doing it. What is your evidence that he had no idea why he was writing?

On the contrary, Nephi was adamant that he knew exactly why he was writing. He explained this in detail a number of times. He unequivocally affirmed he wrote words given to him for specific reasons. He even prophesied that future readers would dismiss his words. “But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.”

This is quite explicit....

Quote

2 Nephi 33

1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.
2 But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.
3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people. For I pray continually for them by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, because of them; and I cry unto my God in faith, and I know that he will hear my cry.
4 And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.
5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.
6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.
7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.
8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.
9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.
10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.
13 And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come.
14 And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day.
15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I like your attitude, keep asking questions, that's what God wants of us, I believe.

See my response to SM directly above. What should we do when God gives us the answers? 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[SouthernMo]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

You crack me up. Seriously, your grasp of the situation is based on ignorance and a complete lack of understanding of either party involved in the conversation. You might want to wait a few years interacting with others before you begin to enter into the conversation between two people. 

Otherwise, stay up on that proud horse you prance on and carry on. 

Buddy - I honestly just want you to find peace.

You’re right, I don’t understand your situation other then telling me you get angry often.  I’ve never seen anger as a productive emotion - no matter the circumstance. Jesus has helped me immensely overcome much of my anger and negative emotion.  I’m a lot happier.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Well in my experience it's only around here that the atonement offers anger and sadness.

 

That’s too bad. Amidst all my struggles with much of the LDS dogma, the principle of the atonement is one that is central to me. It works and I know it from personal experience.

[SouthernMo]

27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting. Uncertainly and doubt are not words usually associated with Nephi. Granted, he once wrote that he was unsure why he was being commanded to keep a certain record, but he trusted that God had good reasons for doing it. What is your evidence that he had no idea why he was writing?

On the contrary, Nephi was adamant that he knew exactly why he was writing. He explained this in detail a number of times. He unequivocally affirmed he wrote words given to him for specific reasons. He even prophesied that future readers would dismiss his words. “But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.”

This is quite explicit....

 

You bring up a good point.  I wrote hastily when I said Nephi had “no idea” why he was writing. I was thinking about 1 Nephi 9:5

5 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose in him, which purpose I know not.

There was clearly some element of faith and the unknown in his record keeping, but you’re right. There are other scriptures that indicate he wasn’t completely blind to it.

Appreciate your clarification of the truth!