How Far-Reaching Is Forgiveness?

[Rivers]

I've bee reading through the book Miracle of Forgiveness and I have found some of it very shocking. One thing that really took me back was Kimball's interpretation if the parable if the prodigal son. He uses the parable to show how much better off the older brother is for not screwing up in the first place. Even though the younger brother repented, he still holds a lesser status. This is completely different than the way I have always understood the parable. I thought the parable was meant to convey how infinite and far-reaching forgiveness is. And that the older brother was sinning in not being able to forgive the younger brother. That's what is shown in the modernized church movie about the prodigal son.

In my mind, Kimball completely butchers the parable. Isn't one who repents as well off as one who hasn't sinned in the first place? Or am I wrong?

[Bikeemikey]

I've bee reading through the book Miracle of Forgiveness and I have found some of it very shocking. One thing that really took me back was Kimball's interpretation if the parable if the prodigal son. He uses the parable to show how much better off the older brother is for not screwing up in the first place. Even though the younger brother repented, he still holds a lesser status. This is completely different than the way I have always understood the parable. I thought the parable was meant to convey how infinite and far-reaching forgiveness is. And that the older brother was sinning in not being able to forgive the younger brother. That's what is shown in the modernized church movie about the prodigal son.

In my mind, Kimball completely butchers the parable. Isn't one who repents as well off as one who hasn't sinned in the first place? Or am I wrong?

I don't think your wrong.

However, we really don't know how repentance works or why the atonement was able to so what it did so I think we are all guessing on the subject.

[ksfisher]

I've bee reading through the book Miracle of Forgiveness and I have found some of it very shocking. One thing that really took me back was Kimball's interpretation if the parable if the prodigal son. He uses the parable to show how much better off the older brother is for not screwing up in the first place. Even though the younger brother repented, he still holds a lesser status. This is completely different than the way I have always understood the parable. I thought the parable was meant to convey how infinite and far-reaching forgiveness is. And that the older brother was sinning in not being able to forgive the younger brother. That's what is shown in the modernized church movie about the prodigal son.

In my mind, Kimball completely butchers the parable. Isn't one who repents as well off as one who hasn't sinned in the first place? Or am I wrong?

 

Which chapter in the book is this in?  It's been a long time since I read it.

[thesometimesaint]

I've bee reading through the book Miracle of Forgiveness and I have found some of it very shocking. One thing that really took me back was Kimball's interpretation if the parable if the prodigal son. He uses the parable to show how much better off the older brother is for not screwing up in the first place. Even though the younger brother repented, he still holds a lesser status. This is completely different than the way I have always understood the parable. I thought the parable was meant to convey how infinite and far-reaching forgiveness is. And that the older brother was sinning in not being able to forgive the younger brother. That's what is shown in the modernized church movie about the prodigal son.

In my mind, Kimball completely butchers the parable. Isn't one who repents as well off as one who hasn't sinned in the first place? Or am I wrong?

 

God can do many things what he can not is make something not to have happened. It is true that it is better not to have sinned in the first place than to repent afterwards. However as there has been only one mortal on this planet that never sinned, and we're not him. I'm thankful for repentance and forgiveness

Edited July 29, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[danielwoods]

I've bee reading through the book Miracle of Forgiveness and I have found some of it very shocking. One thing that really took me back was Kimball's interpretation if the parable if the prodigal son. He uses the parable to show how much better off the older brother is for not screwing up in the first place. Even though the younger brother repented, he still holds a lesser status. This is completely different than the way I have always understood the parable. I thought the parable was meant to convey how infinite and far-reaching forgiveness is. And that the older brother was sinning in not being able to forgive the younger brother. That's what is shown in the modernized church movie about the prodigal son.

In my mind, Kimball completely butchers the parable. Isn't one who repents as well off as one who hasn't sinned in the first place? Or am I wrong?

 

The prodigal son repents and is free of his sin, which restores his relationship with his father. Relationship is restored. 

 

The "good" son doesn't think he has sinned, and thinks he doesn't need to repent, yet is resentful and proud of heart. Relationship is damaged with his father as a result of his "hidden" sin. 

 

Moral of the story. We all need to have humble/repentant hearts toward God because he accepts all who repent, even those we are resentful toward. 

[CV75]

I've bee reading

There are so many lessons to be learned from the parable, most of them about mercy, charity, forgiveness, etc. But one of them is that it is better to remain faithful than to stray, even with the hope for forgiveness, because  we can still carry the burdens of bad decisions throughout the rest of our mortal lives, no matter how well things turn out in the resurrection. For example, the prodigal son did not have his inheritance restored; it would have been better had he lived so as to never have lost it. And it would have been better had the dutiful son avoided uncharitable feelings toward his brother, a thing which he had to repent of (and the story doesn’t indicate that he did!). I think in this sense the parable can be used as a cautionary tale to avoid sin and self-righteousness.

[ksfisher]

I believe I've found the passage you are referring to, and I believe that thesometimessaint's analysis is correct.

 

What President Kimball is teaching is that, while God can forgive all manner of sin, he can't restore something that has been irrevocably lost. 

 

God can forgive a murderer, but he cannot restore the life that was taken.  This is why forgiveness is so important.  Things can never be undone, all we can do is forgive and move on.  This is what the father did in the parable.  He forgives the son, but he cannot restore the lost inheritance. 

 

The father's counsel to the other son is you still have your inheritance, now you also need to forgive your brother.

 

Obviously the prodigal would have been better off not squandering his inheritance in the first place.  This seems to be one of the main points President Kimball is trying to teach.  While it's good to seek and receive forgiveness for a sin, it's better to never sin in the first place.

[bluebell]

The father in the parable does make a point of explaining to the older brother that he will inherit all he has, implying that the younger brother, though forgiven, is not reinstated as an heir.

Maybe kimball was talking about some lessons that can be learned from that perspective of the parable?

[Grundelwalken]

I understand what Elder Kimball was teaching, but that was written in a different time with (maybe) a different understanding. I believe we have been taught more on the subject and have an expanded view of how powerful the Atonement can be. It would not be surprising to see even more revelation that gives us more on this subject.

That is not to say the book was not inspired (personally it was life changing) but I believe in continuing revelation for all God's children.

[Calm]

Isn't one who repents as well off as one who hasn't sinned in the first place? Or am I wrong?

Eternally speaking, yes.  In mortality they still have to deal with the consequences of their sin.

 

But as with all parables, I believe that this one speaks at different levels for those prepared at different ones.  There are many out there who need the extra incentive to begin with of fear of consequences to avoid sin.  Once they grow in understanding of the blessings of obedience, their motivation will be moved to love of God, but God will use all tools to help others seek him and righteousness, imo, including when necessary fear much as a parent will use fear for a toddler to stop him from sticking his fingers into a plug but later will explain why it is dangerous when the child is old enough to understand.

 

IIRC President Kimball told his son he would have written the book differently later on, that he felt he took too harsh a stance at times but perhaps he was inspired by the spirit because many of those reading the book were not at the stage yet to be touched by the eternal promise of full redemption in the right way.  I believe it is in the bio that Edward Kimball wrote of him.  Perhaps someone with a better memory than mine can confirm this.

[Duncan]

Eternally speaking, yes.  In mortality they still have to deal with the consequences of their sin.

 

But as with all parables, I believe that this one speaks at different levels for those prepared at different ones.  There are many out there who need the extra incentive to begin with of fear of consequences to avoid sin.  Once they grow in understanding of the blessings of obedience, their motivation will be moved to love of God, but God will use all tools to help others seek him and righteousness, imo, including when necessary fear much as a parent will use fear for a toddler to stop him from sticking his fingers into a plug but later will explain why it is dangerous when the child is old enough to understand.

 

IIRC President Kimball told his son he would have written the book differently later on, that he felt he took too harsh a stance at times but perhaps he was inspired by the spirit because many of those reading the book were not at the stage yet to be touched by the eternal promise of full redemption in the right way.  I believe it is in the bio that Edward Kimball wrote of him.  Perhaps someone with a better memory than mine can confirm this.

 

 

he did say that. I used his son's quotation once in a talk I gave some years ago

[Kind Debater]

God can forgive a murderer, but he cannot restore the life that was taken.

 

I thought D&C 42:18 said that God didn't forgive murderers.  "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come." 

 

Also, D&C 42:25-26 says that someone who repents of adultery but commits it a second time won't be forgiven either.

 

I believe that God will forgive anyone who repents and comes to him for forgiveness, but D&C 42 seems to disagree with that.

[katherine the great]

He lost his inheritance but his inheritance was money.  The son was still free to go out in to the world, make his own living and perhaps gain more in doing so than he would have with his portion (which would have been significantly smaller to start with than his older brother's.)  I am not sure I believe that is always better to not sin, unless we fail to learn a valuable lesson when we repent.  I have learned a lot from my sins--more than I have learned from my righteousness.  It is easier to be humble as a repentant sinner than as a person who has never done anything wrong.  Maybe this parable is designed to teach a lesson to the sinner and the saint.  I don't think this story is drawing an exact parallel between an earthly inheritance of money and an eternal inheritance in heaven--  otherwise there is no room for the atonement.

[Duncan]

I thought D&C 42:18 said that God didn't forgive murderers.  "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come." 

 

Also, D&C 42:25-26 says that someone who repents of adultery but commits it a second time won't be forgiven either.

 

I believe that God will forgive anyone who repents and comes to him for forgiveness, but D&C 42 seems to disagree with that.

 

 

Do you read the NT as saying that you can do whatever you want, live however you want to live and Christ will forgive you regardless of your heart? because I don't!

[Jeanne]

The book "Miracle of Forgiveness" set me back in the faith instead of any comfort or help with repentance.  I remember thinking that I was so glad that I had never been raped and unable to fight back..I might have been better off dead than alive!

[katherine the great]

 

IIRC President Kimball told his son he would have written the book differently later on, that he felt he took too harsh a stance at times but perhaps he was inspired by the spirit because many of those reading the book were not at the stage yet to be touched by the eternal promise of full redemption in the right way.  I believe it is in the bio that Edward Kimball wrote of him.  Perhaps someone with a better memory than mine can confirm this.

That's good to know.  

[Duncan]

The book "Miracle of Forgiveness" set me back in the faith instead of any comfort or help with repentance.  I remember thinking that I was so glad that I had never been raped and unable to fight back..I might have been better off dead than alive!

 

 

it has devastating effects on me as well, historically speaking

[katherine the great]

The book "Miracle of Forgiveness" set me back in the faith instead of any comfort or help with repentance.  I remember thinking that I was so glad that I had never been raped and unable to fight back..I might have been better off dead than alive!

Yes.  That part was incredibly harsh and unfair.

[Kind Debater]

Do you read the NT as saying that you can do whatever you want, live however you want to live and Christ will forgive you regardless of your heart? because I don't!

 

I don't read the NT as saying that.  I believe that people have to repent to be forgiven, and that if people continue in major sins without repenting they don't have a saving faith (e.g. Rev 21:18, 1 Cor 6:9-11).

 

Do you believe that God forgives someone who murders and then repents, or commits adultery twice but repents of it each time?

[Stargazer]

I read The Miracle of Forgiveness and I guess never had any issues with it, because at the time nothing Elder Kimball wrote applied to me in any negative way.  But to speak to the OP, rather than to TMOF, it is better to have not sinned than to have sinned and received forgiveness.

 

I am reminded of my wife's first husband, who sinned grievously, lost his membership in the Church, lost his wife, and possibly the sealing to his children, and did not rejoin the Church in this life, although he wanted to.

 

For him there still remains the possibility of forgiveness and the Atonement, and even, presumably Exaltation, but in no case does he regain it all.  He does not get his wife back (because she is now mine), and not all that he let slide through his fingers will be restored.

 

Thus, it is better to have not sinned than to have sinned and received forgiveness. 

[Stargazer]

I don't read the NT as saying that.  I believe that people have to repent to be forgiven, and that if people continue in major sins without repenting they don't have a saving faith (e.g. Rev 21:18, 1 Cor 6:9-11).

 

Do you believe that God forgives someone who murders and then repents, or commits adultery twice but repents of it each time?

 

As to the first, I agree that failure to repent leads to not being forgiven.  As to the second, I am sure that He will forgive even the serial sinner, if he or she has sincerely repented.  Keeping in mind that the repentance process does not end until the end.  Whenever that is.

[Ahab]

Forgiveness doesn't do what repentance does.

Repentance is a change in behavior for the better while forgiveness can only help a person feel better.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The older son is in more spiritual peril then the younger son because he is refusing to forgive.

[ksfisher]

I thought D&C 42:18 said that God didn't forgive murderers.  "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come." 

 

Also, D&C 42:25-26 says that someone who repents of adultery but commits it a second time won't be forgiven either.

 

I believe that God will forgive anyone who repents and comes to him for forgiveness, but D&C 42 seems to disagree with that.

 

Two scriptures:

 

"But he answered them and said, Verily I say unto you, All sins which men have committed, when they repent, shall be forgiven them; for I came to preach repentance unto the sons of men."

JST Mark 3:22

 

 "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

D&C 64:10

 

The first scripture teaches that the Lord will forgive all who repent.  The second teaches that we are commanded to forgive all.  Does this seem to contradict D&C 42?  Maybe, maybe not.  The apparent contradiction doesn't really bother me because I know that I need to forgive all, regardless of who the person who I'm forgiving has done. 

 

A second question could be asked; is there a difference between being forgiven and being exalted?  To which I would answer yes.  I believe that all who seek forgiveness will eventually find it.  All who, with all sincerity, desire the atonement to change their live will be healed.  But, as President Kimball teaches, sometimes an inheritance lost cannot be fully restored.

[Duncan]

I don't read the NT as saying that.  I believe that people have to repent to be forgiven, and that if people continue in major sins without repenting they don't have a saving faith (e.g. Rev 21:18, 1 Cor 6:9-11).

 

Do you believe that God forgives someone who murders and then repents, or commits adultery twice but repents of it each time?

 

I have no idea if God forgives murderers, I don't know all the situations people find themselves in, again with adultery. I know on behalf the Church will forgive adulterers but you can't get back into the Church after 2 or 3 times after being excommunicated

I suppose only God knows who he will forgive