How Far-Reaching Is Forgiveness?

[JDave]

 

well, in my experience my deacon's quorum was each given a copy to read from our Bishop, I don't know about anyone else in that class if they took the challenge to read it but I did and it devastated me and poisoned me for years. I haven't read it since and I love Pres. Kimball but I tend to think he wrote it for folks who thinks repentance is too easy or they don't need to repent. I LOVE Elder Oaks' statement about all this 

 

"Most of what I have said here has been addressed to persons who think that repentance is too easy. At the opposite extreme are those who think that repentance is too hard. That group of souls are so tenderhearted and conscientious that they see sin everywhere in their own lives, and they despair of ever being able to be clean. The shot of doctrine that is necessary to penetrate the hard shell of the easygoing group is a massive overdose for the conscientious. What is necessary to encourage reformation for the lax can produce paralyzing discouragement for the conscientious. This is a common problem. We address a diverse audience each time we speak, and we are never free from the reality that a doctrinal underdose for some is an overdose for others." Elder Oaks, Sin and Suffering, BYU Aug. 1990

I love that quote too. And here I have a hard time just tailoring the message to my individual children's needs when I am talking to them one on one!

[Stargazer]

\

I'll start with the second part of your response, since for my purposes this works better.

 

What I seem to get from your question is that you likely don't understand what you're reading when you read these great discourses...

Oh, but I do understand what I'm reading.

 

...because what you're looking for is all there.

Nope, it isn't. And just to be plain, I do know what I am looking for and have found it. My assertion here is that that which I have found is not to be found in a single scripture all laid out. It requires an array of scriptures (and some GA statements) all laid out in a logical format, as if it were a proof of a principle.

 

So the question is should someone spoon feed another the answers to such important questions or should a man be left on own so as to experience the joy of personal revelation regarding the atonement. I would say the latter is the better option because spoon feeding meat when one is unprepared to digest that meat can be counterproductive and even damaging.

Exactly.

 

Nevertheless, when I get back from work, and have some time, I'll at least provide some verses that will be worth your pondering.

I'll look forward to it. I doubt you'll reach the level of information I am aiming at. In the meantime:

 

Let's start with the great atonement discourses found in 2 Nephi 2, 2 Nephi 9, Alma 34 and Alma 41-42. These provide the reader with in-depth explanations of the why, the how and the mechanisms of the atonement.

First of all, WHY and HOW are not the questions for which there is no easily-found answer. WHY must need the Atonement is because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and may not come back to the Father. Accessing the Atonement is the HOW, and that is conformance to the Fourth Article of faith (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost).

The MECHANISM I am looking for would explain the mechanics of how Christ's Atonement combined with our obedience to the Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel provide that redemption.

• 2 Nephi 2 - a rich vein of WHY - we are all fallen and require redemption
• 2 Nephi 9 - a rich vein of HOW - the only redemption available is through the Atonement of Jesus Christ
• Alma 34 - more WHY and HOW
• Alma 41-42 - more WHY and HOW

Not a breath of MECHANISM in any of them

The question of MECHANISM is this: Why does the suffering of Christ, beginning in the Garden of Gethsemane and ending with His death on the cross, make his sacrifice capable of saving us sinners? I accept that His sacrifice and my accessing it makes it possible for me to be redeemed. But what is it about that sacrifice that creates the necessary conditions?

 

 

 

Now, to be clear, none of actually need know the MECHANISM to take advantage of Christ's Atonement.  Much like a light switch, it will work for you whether you understand the principles of electricity or not.

 

But it is nice to know the MECHANISM of the Atonement, and WHY it works.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

Back from work. I've decided to elaborate just a little.

1) The overriding reason why God Himself had to make an infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice is because He loves us enough to want us to become like Him; and, just as importantly, we want to become like Him...

37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1)

 

The atonement is the means whereby God brings to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Pretty good reason why, don't you think?

and,

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7)

The main mechanism that makes the atoning sacrifice efficacious is the Holy Ghost. After Adam's baptism he is told:

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment (quite a mechanism, don't you think?).

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time. (Moses 6)

 

But the problem is that until one has felt and experienced the power of the Holy Ghost, the atonement will remain a mystery because the Holy Ghost can only be known by personal experience. The redeeming power of the Saviour that the Holy Ghost imparts to man can only be known by making actual spiritual contact with the Holy Ghost; and unless the Holy Ghost is known through firsthand experience, His nature and power will forever remain a mystery because the salvative gifts and powers He imparts can only be spiritually felt, understood and discerned...

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2)

 

The gifts, powers and blessings of the atonement are made available by means of the Holy Ghost, and therein lies the mechanism of the bestowal of the transformative power of the atonement of which you speak and seek.

 

Yes, all of this is true and it is beautiful.  But it does not address the mechanism of the Atonement.  See my previous post above.

 

I gather from the fact that the mechanism is not revealed explicitly in scripture, and can only be teased out from careful examination of scripture, both ancient and modern, that the Lord chose to make it hard to discover.  I presume that is because He wanted us to find out ourselves.  And perhaps because we were not all ready for it.

 

And I know that some do not see what I see, when I have discussed it.

[teddyaware]

I'll start with the second part of your response, since for my purposes this works better.

 

Oh, but I do understand what I'm reading.

 

Nope, it isn't. And just to be plain, I do know what I am looking for and have found it. My assertion here is that that which I have found is not to be found in a single scripture all laid out. It requires an array of scriptures (and some GA statements) all laid out in a logical format, as if it were a proof of a principle.

 

 

I'll look forward to it. I doubt you'll reach the level of information I am aiming at. In the meantime:

 

First of all, WHY and HOW are not the questions for which there is no easily-found answer. WHY must need the Atonement is because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and may not come back to the Father. Accessing the Atonement is the HOW, and that is conformance to the Fourth Article of faith (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost).

The MECHANISM I am looking for would explain the mechanics of how Christ's Atonement combined with our obedience to the Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel provide that redemption.

• 2 Nephi 2 - a rich vein of WHY - we are all fallen and require redemption
• 2 Nephi 9 - a rich vein of HOW - the only redemption available is through the Atonement of Jesus Christ
• Alma 34 - more WHY and HOW
• Alma 41-42 - more WHY and HOW

Not a breath of MECHANISM in any of them

The question of MECHANISM is this: Why does the suffering of Christ, beginning in the Garden of Gethsemane and ending with His death on the cross, make his sacrifice capable of saving us sinners? I accept that His sacrifice and my accessing it makes it possible for me to be redeemed. But what is it about that sacrifice that creates the necessary conditions?

 

 

 

Now, to be clear, none of actually need know the MECHANISM to take advantage of Christ's Atonement.  Much like a light switch, it will work for you whether you understand the principles of electricity or not.

 

But it is nice to know the MECHANISM of the Atonement, and WHY it works.

 

At the time of His great sacrifice, Christ was an infinite and eternal being. An infinite and eternal being possesses an infinite and eternal fullness of all the gifts, powers and holy attributes of God. In His great sacrifice, He not only yielded up His precious blood, but He also yielded up all of the infinite and eternal gifts and powers of God He possessed, that we might be partakers of the divine nature. As the Father withdrew from Him and He descended into hell, in the likeness of a damned soul, in the likeness of the son of perdition Christ yielded up unto us all that he was and all that He possessed as the eternal God. He yielded up all of His infinite and eternal faith, hope and charity -- all of his infinite and eternal power, wisdom and knowledge. This infinite and eternal sacrifice of all that He was and all he possessed is the mechanism by which we are exalted. And so we read:

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D&C 88)

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

At the time Christ began His great sacrifice, he was an infinite and eternal being.

Teddy, *I* am an infinite and eternal being, by and through the creative power of the Father, just as Christ was.

An infinite and eternal being possesses an infinite and eternal fullness of all the gifts, powers and holy attributes of God.

So do I, in potentiality. Father made me that way. I may fail in achieving that potential. Just as Christ might have failed to carry out the Atonement by declining to go through with it, but praise be, He went through with it!

In His great sacrifice, He not only yielded up His precious blood, but He also yielded up all of the infinite and eternal gifts and powers of God He possessed, that we might be partakers of the divine nature. As the Father withdrew from Him and He descended into hell, in the likeness of a damned soul, in the likeness of the son of perdition Christ yielded up unto us all that he was and all that He possessed as the eternal God. He yielded up all of His infinite and eternal faith, hope and charity -- all of his infinite and eternal power, wisdom and knowledge. This infinite and eternal sacrifice of all that He was and all he possessed is the mechanism by which we are exalted. And so we read:

...omitted...

Yes, yes and yes. All glory and honor to Him who fought the good fight, who descended below all things and through whose sacrifice and blood brings us all forth from death and hell, all of us who accept Him.

What I keep trying to tell you is that I know that it is through the sacrifice and the blood and the resurrection of Christ that we all be raised in glory and honor with Him, if we have faith in Him, repent of our sins, are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. And I know that I desperately need this Atonement.

But I also keep trying to assert that there is a mechanism behind all of this that makes it so. I keep trying to ask how does flipping the light switch cause light to appear? And you keep insisting that it is the light switch. What is behind the light switch? That is the question that has not been answered, though I have admitted that knowing what is behind it is not required to access neither the light nor the Atonement. It would just be a thing that is nice to know.

[teddyaware]

Teddy, *I* am an infinite and eternal being, by and through the creative power of the Father, just as Christ was.

So do I, in potentiality. Father made me that way. I may fail in achieving that potential. Just as Christ might have failed to carry out the Atonement by declining to go through with it, but praise be, He went through with it!

Yes, yes and yes. All glory and honor to Him who fought the good fight, who descended below all things and through whose sacrifice and blood brings us all forth from death and hell, all of us who accept Him.

What I keep trying to tell you is that I know that it is through the sacrifice and the blood and the resurrection of Christ that we all be raised in glory and honor with Him, if we have faith in Him, repent of our sins, are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. And I know that I desperately need this Atonement.

But I also keep trying to assert that there is a mechanism behind all of this that makes it so. I keep trying to ask how does flipping the light switch cause light to appear? And you keep insisting that it is the light switch. What is behind the light switch? That is the question that has not been answered, though I have admitted that knowing what is behind it is not required to access neither the light nor the Atonement. It would just be a thing that is nice to know.

Do you know the answer to your own question? If so, stop being so cryptic and get to the point.

(By the way, in spite of your assertions, you are a fallen man and have no power to make an infinite and eternal atonement. So your attempt at establishing a comparative equivalence between you and the Atoning Lord is faulty.)

Edit: I now see where you're making a fatal mistake in your analysis. Too tired to get into it now. Will resume sometime tomorrow.

Edited August 1, 2014 by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

Do you know the answer to your own question? If so, stop being so cryptic and get to the point.

(By the way, in spite of your assertions, you are a fallen man and have no power to make an infinite and eternal atonement. So your attempt at establishing a comparative equivalence between you and the Atoning Lord is faulty.)

Edit: I now see where you're making a fatal mistake in your analysis. Too tired to get into it now. Will resume sometime tomorrow.

I know that I am a fallen man without power to make an infinite and eternal atonement. But Father created me as an infinite and eternal being, just as He created Christ. We are of the same heritage, and are brothers in the Spirit. Christ's heritage as the Only Begotten does make Him superior to me, of course, but if I overcome my sinful nature, then His atonement can make me a joint-heir with Christ of all that the Father hath.

You can't reveal any fatal error in my analysis because I haven't given any analysis. I've only asked a question. If you think the question I am proposing is invalid, I would be interested in hearing that, however.

Trying this one more time, I'm asking what is behind the light switch. It isn't important that you know what it is that is behind the light switch that causes the light to glow, so long as you realize that must be something behind it, even if you don't presently know what it is.

I apologize for being cryptic. I do have an answer, but I should not give it. I just want to spur the realization that there is an important aspect to the Atonement that has not been directly given in the scriptures, and that aspect is the answer to that question I've presented. If you understand the question, I will have accomplished my purpose.

The question is: How does the Atonement work? How does it save me? What is it about Christ's suffering that makes me able to avoid the suffering and receive forgiveness for my sins.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Stargazer

[Rain]

Stargazer - I've wondered that many times. I'd really be interested in what you came up with since I've got nothing. I wonder sometimes if I had more engineering/medical/physics etc if I would get a glimpse of how it works.

[teddyaware]

I know that I am a fallen man without power to make an infinite and eternal atonement. But Father created me as an infinite and eternal being, just as He created Christ. We are of the same heritage, and are brothers in the Spirit. Christ's heritage as the Only Begotten does make Him superior to me, of course, but if I overcome my sinful nature, then His atonement can make me a joint-heir with Christ of all that the Father hath.

You can't reveal any fatal error in my analysis because I haven't given any analysis. I've only asked a question. If you think the question I am proposing is invalid, I would be interested in hearing that, however.

Trying this one more time, I'm asking what is behind the light switch. It isn't important that you know what it is that is behind the light switch that causes the light to glow, so long as you realize that must be something behind it, even if you don't presently know what it is.

I apologize for being cryptic. I do have an answer, but I should not give it. I just want to spur the realization that there is an important aspect to the Atonement that has not been directly given in the scriptures, and that aspect is the answer to that question I've presented. If you understand the question, I will have accomplished my purpose.

The question is: How does the Atonement work? How does it save me? What is it about Christ's suffering that makes me able to avoid the suffering and receive forgiveness for my sins.

It's because He suffered for us vicariously. The word vicarious means, "experienced in the imagination through the feelings or actions of another person." So, insofar as the law of God is concerned, the demand of justice that we alone be punished for our own sins has been satisfied through Christ. He accomplished this by taking upon himself our names, histories, personal experiences, personalities and emotions as He suffered in our stead. So again, as far as the law is concerned, we did suffer for our own sins in the person of Jesus Christ, who vicariously took upon Himself each of our lives and identities so that the law of justice could be satisfied.

Paul wonderfully expresses this holy principal of vicarious redeeming love in Galatians:

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2)

 

So here Paul tells us we were indeed crucified for our own sins through the vicarious sacrifice of Christ.

 

The saving efficacy of the vicarious atonement is based upon the same heavenly principle that enables a deceased person to be baptized with water after death, and this through the action of a proxy representative who takes upon himself the name and identity of the deceased person for whom he is performing the sacred ordinance. The proxy representative is baptized in the temple font just as if the represented deceased person is still alive in the flesh and immersed in the font.

Edited August 2, 2014 by teddyaware