Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted June 29, 2014 Popular Post Posted June 29, 2014 This passage in a conference talk by Ezra Benson made a huge impression on me as a young man. I have often thought of it over the years. Those of us who think “. . . all is well in Zion . . .” in spite of Book of Mormon warning might ponder the words of Heber C. Kimball when he said, “Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills . . . but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God. Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.” (Heber C. Kimball, 1856. Quoted by J. Golden Kimball, Conference Report, October 1930, pp. 59-60.) I also recall these words of Elder Neil Maxwell from a BYU Devotional address in 1978: But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions. It would appear there are several issues today that are sifting the Church and forcing a decision about whom we will follow. 7
Popular Post sethpayne Posted June 29, 2014 Popular Post Posted June 29, 2014 This passage in a conference talk by Ezra Benson made a huge impression on me as a young man. I have often thought of it over the years. I also recall these words of Elder Neil Maxwell from a BYU Devotional address in 1978: It would appear there are several issues today that are sifting the Church and forcing a decision about whom we will follow. Unfortunately, I sometimes see quotes like this used as rameumptons. To be clear, I don't think that is what you are doing, Bernard, but I have seen some folks get really excited about identifying who are wheat and who are tares. OW Prop 8 Abortion ERA Priesthood ban Polygamy Kirtland anti-Bank collapse All supposedly great sieves.... the list goes on and on... Perhaps it would be beneficial to spend less time trying to figure out who fits into what box and spend that effort trying to be kind, compassionate, and empathetic with one another. God can do the sifting. In the mean time, let's just be kind and Christlike. If we do that, we can't go wrong. 6
Calm Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 I do think all those issues act as sieves, just not in the way some look at them (as in what side one stands on). Rather we are being divided by how we treat others we feel divided from....do we still treat them with the love, compassion and respect of a fellow child of God or are we okay with bad things happening to them (even if we are not the cause) because we see them as deserving it? If we pay more attention to being wheat and less attention to who is tares, the Lord will guide us to be where we need to be, IMO. 3
Grundelwalken Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 The day will come when we will have to exhibit charity. .. which only comes from faith and hope. Cal is dead on.
sethpayne Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 If we pay more attention to being wheat and less attention to who is tares, the Lord will guide us to be where we need to be, IMO. Wonderfully stated. I completely agree.
JLHPROF Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 I don't think the majority of people in the Church will even realise they are being sieved. They will be so convinced that what they think is right or even God's will that they will "sieve" themselves.If we don't remember the Joseph Smith teaching that whatever God requires is right we will always be in danger of our own will getting in the way and sieving us right out of the uncomfortable truths to a place where we get what we want and feel good about it. 2
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted June 29, 2014 Popular Post Posted June 29, 2014 Unfortunately, I sometimes see quotes like this used as rameumptons. To be clear, I don't think that is what you are doing, Bernard, but I have seen some folks get really excited about identifying who are wheat and who are tares. OW Prop 8 Abortion ERA Priesthood ban Polygamy Kirtland anti-Bank collapse All supposedly great sieves.... the list goes on and on... Perhaps it would be beneficial to spend less time trying to figure out who fits into what box and spend that effort trying to be kind, compassionate, and empathetic with one another. God can do the sifting. In the mean time, let's just be kind and Christlike. If we do that, we can't go wrong.I think we should make a distinction between recognizing a "sieve" when we seen one and taking pride in being on "the good side". The difference is not about noting who has picked the other side and is therefore "wrong", but more that we have done our best to identify what the spirit tells us is the right course for us, and as you say, taking a compassionate attitude toward those on the other side. I am sure we will be judged more for how we have treated others than how well we have judged others. 8
mfbukowski Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 I do think all those issues act as sieves, just not in the way some look at them (as in what side one stands on). Rather we are being divided by how we treat others we feel divided from....do we still treat them with the love, compassion and respect of a fellow child of God or are we okay with bad things happening to them (even if we are not the cause) because we see them as deserving it?If we pay more attention to being wheat and less attention to who is tares, the Lord will guide us to be where we need to be, IMO.Dang ya. You always say everything better than I do.
Storm Rider Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 (edited) It is foolishness to encourage confusion between what is righteous and what is evil. Here is the test: does the action put you outside of the Church or not. I see a lot of comments seeking to sidestep a clear delineation between those who follow Christ and those who follow after the dictates of their own heart. The mere fact that one has fallen does not provide a pass to any disciple of Christ to treat them badly; however, that does not equate to being blind to the actions that led them outside the Church. Their actions serve as a warning to all who seek to be disciples and to rethink our own choices and actions and repent of anything that is similar to that which is so obviously condemned. Edited June 29, 2014 by Storm Rider 1
strappinglad Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 You have got to remember that a sieve works 2 ways, to strain something OUT , and to pass something THROUGH.
The Nehor Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Meh.....I see this as minor sieving. I'm expecting something bigger.
Calm Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Dang ya. You always say everything better than I do. Actually I liked your way better.
Tiki Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Teachings of Joseph SmithLosing confidence in Church leaders, criticizing them, and neglecting any duty required by God lead to apostasy.“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-27?lang=eng 3
JLHPROF Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 I agree with Joseph 100%. The challenge is most apostates have found a way round this by claiming the Church is "out of the way" but they don't claim that they are "righteous", just trying to move the Church in the "right direction".See, all that false humility proves they're not apostates.
Kenngo1969 Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Meh.....I see this as minor sieving. I'm expecting something bigger.It's "sifting": things are "sifted" using "sieves." Now, with that out of the way ... Fire and brimstone? 1
MiserereNobis Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Ya'll need an Inquisition to get this stuff figured out properly. Nehor, I nominate you for the role of Torquemada. 3
The Nehor Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Ya'll need an Inquisition to get this stuff figured out properly. Nehor, I nominate you for the role of Torquemada. I humbly accept this nomination and would like to thank all the little people who made this day possible. I will fulfill my responsibilities with all the dedication I put into my career as an internet poster. This has been a cool summer where I am which is definitely God's way of reminding us that we need to burn more heretics. 3
CA Steve Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 For a second there I thought the Op was titled "Beware The Great Steve!" I thought, "It's about time I got some recognition." 2
Kenngo1969 Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Ya'll need an Inquisition to get this stuff figured out properly. Nehor, I nominate you for the role of Torquemada.
mfbukowski Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Ya'll need an Inquisition to get this stuff figured out properly. Nehor, I nominate you for the role of Torquemada.I think we should leave his mada out of it. 1
Bernard Gui Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Great comments. Although my screen name may evoke images of the Inquisition, my comments should not be construed to mean I favor that kind of response to apostacy. I see people sifting themselves, as per Elder Maxwell, by deciding to stand with or against the First Presidency. For some, that means slip sliding away, for some it means being offended or embarrassed and quiting, and for others it means active opposition and excommunication. We all know people who have been sifted in these ways, some prominent ones are in the news. I believe this will increase as the world and the Church continue to move ever more rapidly to opposite poles. TheTree of Life vision describes how this happens. As the clamor from the Great and Spacious building increases, more of us will be ashamed and drift off the path, some of us wandering in forbidden paths and some of us joining the crowd in the building pointing fingers and wagging tongues at the Saints.To avoid being sifted out, we stay on the side of the sieve with the First Presidency. Edited June 30, 2014 by Bernard Gui 2
Senator Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 For some, that means slip sliding away, for some it means being offended or embarrassed and quiting, and for others it means active opposition and excommunication. For others it means becoming self-righteous, uncharitable and judgmental; all the while proudly declaring their devotion to the First Presidency. TheTree of Life vision describes how this happens. As the clamor from the Great and Spacious building increases, more of us will be ashamed and drift off the path, some of us wandering in forbidden paths and some of us joining the crowd in the building pointing fingers and wagging tongues at the Saints other siftees.
Bernard Gui Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 For others it means becoming self-righteous, uncharitable and judgmental; all the while proudly declaring their devotion to the First Presidency.I suppose there are a few that might do that. I hope you are not asserting that I am one of them.
Senator Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 I suppose there are a few that might do that. I hope you are not asserting that I am one of them. Correct
DJBrown Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 For others it means becoming self-righteous, uncharitable and judgmental; all the while proudly declaring their devotion to the First Presidency. Of course this goes without saying. The insistence that the more important matter is how we treat people really is a distraction from the point. Of course we are to love and empathize with others. The First Presidency is certainly leading us to do that very thing. I cannot think of anybody encouraging us not to treat people with respect. The question is- are we in line with the First Presidency. Is there any more pressing question than are we as individuals following the prophet and First Presidency? If we are not, then we should recognize the significance and danger with that position, whatever it is that we have allowed to become a wedge between us and God's anointed.
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