Kate Kelly Verdict Is In...

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't think that it was her public opposition to church doctrine.  From reading the above it seems clear that it was the building of an organization to support her opinions and inviting others to join her in  oppostion.

II Nephi 2:11,  "For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things.  If not so, . . righteousness could not be brought to pass."

2:15,  "it must needs be that there was an opposition; . . ."

2:16,  "Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself.  Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other."

 

Struggles of all sorts are key to the Law of Free Agency.  Kate Kelly and her bishop are both performing essential roles in this process.  This is more than simple boundary maintenance.  It is central to Mormon esoterica, and we can perform the ritual of it in the temple, as well as in actual everyday life.  We cannot have salvation & exaltation without it.

[Abulafia]

.

She was counseled that her actions had crossed the line and of the consequences and yet she was "floored" when it happened? 

Yes.  I don't think she expected to be excommunicated.  I think she was hopeful (perhaps naively so) that her leadership would understand for her, this was a matter of conscience.  I think I get her, (though I have never met her).  She is a human rights attorney, so an incredibly smart person, who has dealt with issues of gender inequality in every walk of life, yet she is a Mormon where structural gender inequality is rife.  I'm imagining that she felt a total hypocrite.

The wholly male leadership has the absolute right to tell her that she doesn't get to tell them how the church should be led and by whom.  That's fair enough.  But, heck, you have to admire her for trying.  

[Robert F. Smith]

......................................................................   

Changes in practices and cultural ideals have become clouded by the OW movement. You don't have to go far to figure that out. Moving the women on the stand for GC becomes some sort of flimsy move of appeasement for OW rather than a general shift in gender awareness. Prayer becomes a result of petition and push rather than a continual and elongated dialogue among many for far longer than the last year. After all the age change on missionary work happened well before OW was organized....before "let women pray" started or the 'women wear pants to church" day. The only thing that seems fairly causal are an increase in talks about gender....and they weren't exactly condoning the ideals/actions of OW. 

 

What I found happening more was that a change was made and OW/KK would find a way to twist it as somehow a win for their movement.  The church is evolving, more rapidly in recent years about gender....but not in any way that OW actually envisions. And that, to me, is a major chink in the assumptions that these changes were somehow catalyzed by OW's action.  

 

With luv,

BD

Yes, BD.   That and a lack of historical perspective muddies the waters considerably in this matter.

 

For example, women have had priesthood power in the LDS Church since the days of Joseph Smith, but in waxing and waning quantity, often directly related to how powerful the Relief Society was perceived to be.  Emma Smith and her sisters had far more power to perform ordinances than now, when it is mostly a common feature of the responsibility of temple matrons.  Everyone overlooks that latter as though it misses the point, when it is actually central.

[Robert F. Smith]

.......................................................   

In dealing with my LDS active friends, none of them even want the priesthood, and what I have tried to do is indicate to them that the role of women historically and even within the LDS church has been more nuanced than perhaps even they recognise.  

....................................................   

Quite so.  And wouldn't it have been far more effective to simply request return of the powers which women and the Relief Society once had, but which were later removed?

 

Most Mormon men already recognize that the modern Relief Society is by far the most effective of the various LDS auxiliaries -- as has been true of women in Methodism and so many other religious institutions.  Visiting Teachers always have better stats and easier entre than the Home Teachers.  George Romney used to always make the point that he would likely get into heaven by hanging on to his wife's skirt.  I think he meant it.  Women should not underestimate their power or influence -- for good or ill.

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm sorry but you just cannot even begin to compare how the priesthood worked in Ancient Judaism with the modern LDS church.  The  function and purpose of both was/are completely different.  

 

Of course both modern Christianity and modern Judaism are equally unlike their forebears of two millennia ago.*  But isn't that a largely cultural thing?  What of the essentials?

 

*  Birger A. Pearson: "Out of a single matrix–Second Temple Judaism–had emerged two new religions: rabbinic Judaism and Christianity."  Bible Review, XIX/2 (April 2003), 50.

Hershel Shanks:  ". . . modern Judaism and Christianity are parallel heritors of a many-faceted ancient Judaism."  Bible Review, XI/1 (Feb 1995), 2.

Shaye J. D. Cohen, letter to editor, Moment, 24/5 (Oct 1999), 13-14,

 

"As a historian and a Jew, I believe these claims [that the oral Torah was received at Mt. Sinai] to be historically false even if they are mythically true.  The rabbis of the first centuries of the common era invented the idea of an 'oral Torah' or 'oral tradition' even if some of the laws and traditions that constitute 'the oral Torah' were centuries old by the time the rabbis took them, adapted them, and shaped them to fit the rabbinic system.  The 'oral Torah' is a good example of what scholars call a myth, a sacred story that encapsulates the values of a given society and the way that society endows life with meaning.  * * *  In reality, the Babylonian Talmud is a document of its time and place, just as the Torah is a document of its time and place.  . . . verses of the Torah can be understood in many ways, the rabbinic interpretations are not the only ones and not necessarily the best ones.  * * *

. . . I believe Judaism has developed from ancient times, . . .  * * *  For me, the Torah is still evolving and developing.  The Judaism of Moses differs from that of Moses Maimonides; the Judaism of King David differs from that of David Ben Gurion.  But I am not going to claim there is a single 'correct' or 'authentic' Judaism through the ages.  In their time and place, all are authentic."

 

Well, Abulafia, can it be that "all are authentic"?

[Storm Rider]

Yes.  I don't think she expected to be excommunicated.  I think she was hopeful (perhaps naively so) that her leadership would understand for her, this was a matter of conscience.  I think I get her, (though I have never met her).  She is a human rights attorney, so an incredibly smart person, who has dealt with issues of gender inequality in every walk of life, yet she is a Mormon where structural gender inequality is rife.  I'm imagining that she felt a total hypocrite.

The wholly male leadership has the absolute right to tell her that she doesn't get to tell them how the church should be led and by whom.  That's fair enough.  But, heck, you have to admire her for trying.  

 

Actually, no one should admire her for trying.  She is thoroughly in the thrall of the carnal world and her understanding of equality reflects this.  She has lost her way and her spiritual eyes have become clouded, if not blind, to eternal truths.  She fights and rebels against Zion and the Kingdom of God.  She was counseled and yet she would not relent and chose evil over good.  The excommunication was the strongest symbol possible to impress upon her how much she had lost her way.  Yet, even now she rejoices in wickedness and freely admits she will not relent and she will remain the pupil of Satan to lead others astray and fight against God.

 

You really don't think she expected to be X'd?  I view all of the verbiage as spin and deceit.  It is exactly that she was so educated that these pseudo denials ring hollow and false.  She knew precisely what she was doing and remained on her course of action.  There was no possible alternative outcome. 

 

This is so over the top you are out of the thread.

[Senator]

Actually, no one should not admire her for trying.  She is thoroughly in the thrall of the carnal world and her understanding of equality reflects this.  She has lost her way and her spiritual eyes have become clouded, if not blind, to eternal truths.  She fights and rebels against Zion and the Kingdom of God.  She was counseled and yet she would not relent and chose evil over good.  The excommunication was the strongest symbol to impress upon her how much she had lost her way.  Yet, even now she rejoices in wickedness and freely admits she will not relent and she will remain the pupil of Satan to lead others astray and fight against God.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you should check your ire and ill speaking against her, just as you hoped she had in her speech against the church.

[Abulafia]

 

Of course both modern Christianity and modern Judaism are equally unlike their forebears of two millennia ago.*  But isn't that a largely cultural thing?  What of the essentials?

 

*  Birger A. Pearson: "Out of a single matrix–Second Temple Judaism–had emerged two new religions: rabbinic Judaism and Christianity."  Bible Review, XIX/2 (April 2003), 50.

Hershel Shanks:  ". . . modern Judaism and Christianity are parallel heritors of a many-faceted ancient Judaism."  Bible Review, XI/1 (Feb 1995), 2.

Shaye J. D. Cohen, letter to editor, Moment, 24/5 (Oct 1999), 13-14,

 

"As a historian and a Jew, I believe these claims [that the oral Torah was received at Mt. Sinai] to be historically false even if they are mythically true.  The rabbis of the first centuries of the common era invented the idea of an 'oral Torah' or 'oral tradition' even if some of the laws and traditions that constitute 'the oral Torah' were centuries old by the time the rabbis took them, adapted them, and shaped them to fit the rabbinic system.  The 'oral Torah' is a good example of what scholars call a myth, a sacred story that encapsulates the values of a given society and the way that society endows life with meaning.  * * *  In reality, the Babylonian Talmud is a document of its time and place, just as the Torah is a document of its time and place.  . . . verses of the Torah can be understood in many ways, the rabbinic interpretations are not the only ones and not necessarily the best ones.  * * *

. . . I believe Judaism has developed from ancient times, . . .  * * *  For me, the Torah is still evolving and developing.  The Judaism of Moses differs from that of Moses Maimonides; the Judaism of King David differs from that of David Ben Gurion.  But I am not going to claim there is a single 'correct' or 'authentic' Judaism through the ages.  In their time and place, all are authentic."

 

Well, Abulafia, can it be that "all are authentic"?

 

Yes, agreed.  I guess what I meant was that the Aaronic Priesthood functioned in a particular way.  Most Jewish men were not priests.  Great teachers, prophets, judges, kings - didn't need to be priests to function in their office/role whether charismatic or institutional.  So, in that sense women could be prophets and judges, leaders and spokeswomen for Judaism (in it's many and varied forms spread throughout Judea,Israel and the Diaspora).

I also take your point and completely agree that rabbinic Judaism as we know it today was a development and that just as Christian Orthodoxy took time to develop, so did Rabbinic (Orthodox) Judaism.

My own opinion, is that the all male Aaronic Priesthood given to a certain tribe was a cultural expedient, and that it was all male, if based in historical events, and regardless of whether Moses did or did not exist, most likely came from an early desire to be different to neighbouring traditions where the role of women (as cultic and temple prostitutes for instance) was a matter of distaste.  

That doesn't for one minute mean that that is the way God meant it to be for all time and throughout all dispensations!   Pre-fall Adam, alone in the Garden, was both male and female in and of himself. (Metaphorically speaking), and it is to this state that I believe both Jesus and Paul, asked us to return.  To look beyond gender both at a structural and institutional level.  This is why I fully support the efforts of any woman (or man) in any organisation to push for that return.

That's just my own opinion.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Abulafia

[watermelongirl]

Quite so. And wouldn't it have been far more effective to simply request return of the powers which women and the Relief Society once had, but which were later removed?

Most Mormon men already recognize that the modern Relief Society is by far the most effective of the various LDS auxiliaries -- as has been true of women in Methodism and so many other religious institutions. Visiting Teachers always have better stats and easier entre than the Home Teachers. George Romney used to always make the point that he would likely get into heaven by hanging on to his wife's skirt. I think he meant it. Women should not underestimate their power or influence -- for good or ill.

I find it to be faulty logic to equate VT numbers with success. Having served as a part of RS a lot, I would not categorize them as particularly successful at their stated goals. There is much room for vision, ownership, and expanded good works. And LOL Primary is way more successful at reaching it's objectives.

Don't put women on a pedestal. It isn't warranted or earned.

[Bob Crockett]

Actually, no one should not admire her for trying.  She is thoroughly in the thrall of the carnal world and her understanding of equality reflects this.  She has lost her way and her spiritual eyes have become clouded, if not blind, to eternal truths.  She fights and rebels against Zion and the Kingdom of God.  She was counseled and yet she would not relent and chose evil over good.  The excommunication was the strongest symbol to impress upon her how much she had lost her way.  Yet, even now she rejoices in wickedness and freely admits she will not relent and she will remain the pupil of Satan to lead others astray and fight against God.

 

You really don't think she expected to be X'd?  I view all of the verbiage as spin and deceit.  It is exactly that she was so educated that these pseudo denials ring hollow and false.  She knew precisely what she was doing and remained on her course of action.  There was no possible alternative outcome. 

I think it is unfair to be so harsh, particularly when you're just anonymous.  You don't know the facts.  Nobody really does.

 

I'd characterize her has somebody who should have attended her disciplinary council, and who further errs by criticizing the fact that it was held in abstentia.   She's a very capable person, professionally, and she served a mission.  I predict the time will come when she will return, recognize her errors, and be easily readmitted.   But then I thought that about Lavina Fielding Anderson.  

Edited June 25, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Tacenda]

I find it to be faulty logic to equate VT numbers with success. Having served as a part of RS a lot, I would not categorize them as particularly successful at their stated goals. There is much room for vision, ownership, and expanded good works. And LOL Primary is way more successful at reaching it's objectives.

Don't put women on a pedestal. It isn't warranted or earned.

He's just being gracious. 

 

I do think some put women on a pedestal and put down the men in the church.  I must have a totally different ward than they do because the men are awesome here.  And you know sometimes women in RS don't always do their VT'ng the way it should be done.  In fact out of the three women we visit, only one likes us to come to her home, actually she doesn't like it but feels it's her duty.  I kid you not, she just has that personality!  The other two are very difficult to see.  We usually leave a goody or something, or sometimes knock on the door to say hi, being the stalkers we are.   I wish it was as good as it might look on paper. 

[watermelongirl]

He's just being gracious. 

 

I do think some put women on a pedestal and put down the men in the church.  I must have a totally different ward than they do because the men are awesome here.  And you know sometimes women in RS don't always do their VT'ng the way it should be done.  In fact out of the three women we visit, only one likes us to come to her home, actually she doesn't like it but feels it's her duty.  I kid you not, she just has that personality!  The other two are very difficult to see.  We usually leave a goody or something, or sometimes knock on the door to say hi, being the stalkers we are.   I wish it was as good as it might look on paper. 

I had one sister that only wanted to meet briefly on her porch or in the car outside the house. The others I have now live so far away that I really can only get there every other month or two, but calls and notes count. So yeah, VT numbers shouldn't be equated with success.

[ELF1024]

Yes.  I don't think she expected to be excommunicated.  I think she was hopeful (perhaps naively so) that her leadership would understand for her, this was a matter of conscience.

 

Right, because all matters of conscience must involve the NyTimes. A matter of conscience must be presented in such a manner as to make you out to be the victim and gain you as many acolytes as possible.

 

 

 But, heck, you have to admire her for trying.

 

No, not really, you don't. I would have admired her more had she decided to work within the church instead of becoming a cheerleader for apostacy.

[Rain]

He's just being gracious.

I do think some put women on a pedestal and put down the men in the church. I must have a totally different ward than they do because the men are awesome here. And you know sometimes women in RS don't always do their VT'ng the way it should be done. In fact out of the three women we visit, only one likes us to come to her home, actually she doesn't like it but feels it's her duty. I kid you not, she just has that personality! The other two are very difficult to see. We usually leave a goody or something, or sometimes knock on the door to say hi, being the stalkers we are. I wish it was as good as it might look on paper.

I agree that we shouldn't use numbers as a sign of success, but we do need to be careful in declaring what we are doing is not a success. Success isn't how others react, but if we are doing what the Lord wants us to do with each person.

[watermelongirl]

I agree that we shouldn't use numbers as a sign of success, but we do need to be careful in declaring what we are doing is not a success. Success isn't how others react, but if we are doing what the Lord wants us to do with each person.

I agree with this. I think generalizing success of RS over EQ or other auxiliaries is rife with potential inaccuracies and problems. We use numbers to get a general idea of how things are going, but should not be used to declare that "All is well in Zion."

 

I do believe there is vast room for improvement while building on our successes.

[USU78]

Don't put women on a pedestal. It isn't warranted or earned.

 

Maybe not in some families:  in mine they certainly have earned it and it is warranted.

[Abulafia]

Right, because all matters of conscience must involve the NyTimes. A matter of conscience must be presented in such a manner as to make you out to be the victim and gain you as many acolytes as possible.

 

 

No, not really, you don't. I would have admired her more had she decided to work within the church instead of becoming a cheerleader for apostacy.

Well, the question here is whether there is an effective procedure for a woman specifically to ask for change.  Change has come about.  The YA program for instance was developed as a result of one of the leaders (I forget who) experience of talking with his wife.  That's haphazard, though beneficial to the YA's of the church.

Sadly, I think that many members who do have questions or issues with church structure are of the opinion that the only way to effect change is to bring the matter into the public domain.  Don't forget that as a human rights attorney Kate will also be aware of the importance of openness, something the church is getting, slowly better at.

Over here in the UK, so many meetings have, by law, to be a matter of public record.  Parish Meetings, council meetings, and even what is debated in parliament. That's not necessarily a bad thing.  Openness brings fresh air to dark places and shadowy corners.  It's good for the soul.

As to your second point, I guess it is all a matter of perspective, but the church chose to excommunicate her.  I've never heard her question the historical narrative in the way John Dehlin has or express the same doubts.   Her beliefs and mission has always been clear.  

Personally, it greatly puzzles me why 3 men who nigh near got a Prophet in court for fraud are still in good standing with the church.  Having said that, this is the danger (from a certain perspective) of the OW movement.  It's influential.  I am well aware of some women over here in the UK who the church are losing over this issue, and where the leaders have been heavy handed in trying to shut them down in terms of their support for the OW movement.   

From the church's point of view, I would have thought it would have been better to try and work with them?

[Mystery Meat]

Okay, here's your 'fair' post so everybody can have a trophy, get a medal, get a reward for participating.   Everything in life MUST be fair and equal.

Branch President was given a blessing by me (thursdayish),  gets  a blessing from a high priest on Saturday and Sunday stands before the congregation and tells of the miracle of the high priesthood and how he was healed.  All the while sniffling and coughing over the front row.  A week later, i'm in his office (wife there as well and I don't remember the exact circumstances) but I told him he was full of crap and that I really didn't like him.  Yes, I called him out as well as my wife sat in the chair with her jaw on the floor.  

If I didn't know any better, with your 'fair' comment, I would think you're advocating for women, in all fairness, to be equal with the men and obtain the priesthood.   

 

You got issues.

[mtomm]

 

Way back there BD says:  

She keeps interacting like this is some sociopolitical civil action with the U.S. Government than the church. And she uses western geopolitical terms/concepts even now to define the church and it's decisions. She's not just trying to "push for equality," she's trying to push with a governing system and methodology that doesn't even exist in the church. It's like trying to use an american means of government found on american ideals in a foreign country....it's setting up for failure. 

 

As someone who would like to see some changes for women in the church this is what I saw with KK right off.  She is a lawyer who was treating ordination like a lawyer  and not how a church member should.  

Edited June 25, 2014 by mtomm

[ERayR]

Yes.  I don't think she expected to be excommunicated.  I think she was hopeful (perhaps naively so) that her leadership would understand for her, this was a matter of conscience.  I think I get her, (though I have never met her).  She is a human rights attorney, so an incredibly smart person, who has dealt with issues of gender inequality in every walk of life, yet she is a Mormon where structural gender inequality is rife.  I'm imagining that she felt a total hypocrite.

The wholly male leadership has the absolute right to tell her that she doesn't get to tell them how the church should be led and by whom.  That's fair enough.  But, heck, you have to admire her for trying.  

 

Trying is not the problem (at least with me).  It is that after being warned where the boundaries are she deliberately crossed them repeatedly.  If she had someone working for her that did not recognize their boundaries she would not allow it to go unchecked.  Perhaps she had enough of an ego to think the boundaries did not apply for her.  I don't know but it appears that way to me.  If so she is not alone,.  There are some male contemporaries who seem to be of the same opinion, one of which keeps bouncing back and forth across them.  Kind of like they won't ex me I repent too fast.

[ERayR]

I think it is unfair to be so harsh, particularly when you're just anonymous.  You don't know the facts.  Nobody really does.

 

 

Exact no.  I wasn't in the room but the confidential letter 'she' made public gives me enough information that, because of my experiences, I can recognize the pattern with reasonable certainty.

[Buzzard]

I am not trying to be uncharitable, really I'm not. But having watched some of the interviews KK has done in the last few days, I am becoming less than impressed with her. She comes across-and maybe I'm biased from the get go-as being very full of herself. The NYTimes introduced her as a co-founder of OW. She stopped them and informed them them that she was THE founder. And actually said in one of her interviews that she was the smartest person she knew. (!) And then I hear her interviews, and think that if she is a lawyer I am glad she is not my lawyer. She wouldn't last 30 minutes in a courtroom. She came across (to me) as a poorly prepared high school debater. 

Maybe "International Human Rights Attorneys" do different things, but eventually most lawyers have to give oral presentations, and at present those don't strike me as her strong suit.

[ERayR]

Don't put women on a pedestal. It isn't warranted or earned.

 

One of my irritants is the number of men who carry the pedestals around putting them up everywhere.  They continually down grade themselves and men and lift women high atop these figurative towers.  Now nobody respects women or womanhood more than I but please give men a break, most of us are not that bad.

[thesometimesaint]

Neither my wife nor I put our spouse on a pedal. We are simply two generally good, but fallible, people working hard at making our marriage last an eternity. We're at 42 years and counting

[BlueDreams]

Neither my wife nor I put our spouse on a pedal. We are simply two generally good, but fallible, people working hard at making our marriage last an eternity. We're at 42 years and counting

 

I'm glad you're good peoples.....but you might want to think of letting her drive or at least bike. Women can be placed on a pedal from time to time