Kate Kelly Verdict Is In...

[Mystery Meat]

Lots of people complain about lots of things. Some are valid, some are not. The children of Israel complained to Moses that they wanted to go back Egypt. That didn't turn out particularly well for them.

 

I really don't see any particular connection between the two examples you give.

 

That's because there are zero.

[smac97]

Kate Kelly just gave an interview to CNN: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/06/25/feminist-mormon-says-shell-fight-her-excommunication/

 

Here is an transcript of most of it:

 

Interviewer: So let's talk about this.  You have been accused of threatening to erode the faith of others.  Is that how you see it?  Because you make the case that that in fact The Book of Mormon allows for women to be ordained.

Kelly: I don't think that this erodes the faith of others.  In fact, I see this as an investment in the church that I love.  The women that have joined with me have also this great faith.  We think that the Church can be a more inclusive place, and we see a lot of precedent.  There are examples in The Bible.  There are examples even from the early Church that women can participate for fully and indeed be ordained.  

Interviewer: Have you considered at all possibly going to or following a religion that allows or is more inclusive to women when it comes to being ordained?

Kelly: Mormonism really is my spiritual home.  And I'm just the type of person that when I see something that needs to change, whether it's in the U.S. Government or in my own religion, I don't leave, I invest.  I try to improve it.  I try to make it a better place, not just for me, but for my neices and my friends and all the other women that I know and love.

Interviewer: When we look at this issue within the Mormon Church, how significant is it?  How many women do want to be ordained as priests?

Kelly: The number is growing rapidly.  This conversation, when we launched the website, OrdainWomen.org, last year, you could count on one hand the people who would publicly support  women's ordination within the Church.  But we have hundreds of profiles on the site, we have thousands of people supporting us, we've had two direct actions in Salt Lake City attempting to attend a male-only meeting, and we had hundreds of people show up.  So this conversation is really breaking wide open in the faith.

Interviewer: When you think about it, you've also cited precedent from the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith.  What is it that he says that you believe allows women to take part in the ritual?

Kelly: When Joseph Smith founded the Relief Society, which is the women's organization in the Church, he said that he wanted it to be, and I quote, "a kingdom of priests like unto Paul and Enoch's day."  So he explicitly stated that he intended women to be organized as a quorum of priests.

Interviewer: And very quickly, do you plan to fight this?  Will you continue to follow Mormonism, but perhaps without the Church?  

Kelly: I intend to appeal.  There are two different levels of appeal that I'll pursue.  And I'll pursue it all the way to the First Presidency of the Church because I consider this to be my spiritual home.  

 

A few thoughts:

• If faith in the Church is not being eroded by Kate Kelly's actions, then why did an OW supporter and her entire family resign their membership in the Church?  Why is there a campaign being started even now to encourage Latter-day Saints to demand their own disciplinary councils?  Why, if she is not trying to erode faith, is she encouraging others to either stay in the Church and "raise hell" or else leave it?

• Her comment comparing the Church to the U.S. Government is, I think, instructive.  Her tactics are part and parcel of the sort of activism designed for political entities which are answerable to their constituencies.  Her tactics don't work in the Church.

• She sort of dodged the question about "how significant" the female ordination movement is.  She doesn't even try to address the Pew polling data, for example.

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited June 25, 2014 by smac97

[teddyaware]

I really don't get this idea that the Church must be run by God to have any value. We all acknowledge that our local leaders make mistakes. They are MEN. Yet, for most of us, the vast majority of our interaction with the Church is on the ward, stake and branch levels, which are lead by imperfect men. Should we stop attending sacrament meetings and the like because they aren't be run by God?

Why is imperfection acceptable among everyone but the 15? And by the way, where did they come from? That same group of imperfect (but sincere) local leadership. So when did the "infallibility switch" get pulled?

And if the keys of the priesthood come with such infallibility, then why don't they get passed down to the local level where they could do the most good?

I've got a great idea! Let's start using high-tech robots, androids and supercomputers to run the Church at the local level! We can preprogram them to always do the right thing, never commit "sin", have them "memorize" all the scriptures, General Conference addresses, Ensign editions, and so on..., and give them lifelike voices of authority that sound like the General Authorities. This way we could eliminate the cursed "learn as you go" approach to Church leadership that makes newb so unhappy.

[ERayR]

I've got a great idea! Let's start using high-tech robots, androids and supercomputers to run the Church at the local level! We can preprogram them to always do the right thing, never commit "sin", have them "memorize" all the scriptures, General Conference addresses, Ensign editions, and so on..., and give them lifelike voices of authority that sound like the General Authorities. This way we could eliminate the cursed "learn as you go" approach to Church leadership that makes newb so unhappy.

 

Super idea!!  We could include psychological counseling capabilities and legal programing so as to allow them to serve as bishop.  It would be ideal as they wouldn't need to eat or sleep or work a full time job to provide for a family and would be on call 24/7 - 365days

[awyatt]

In fairness to KK, she has tried to meet with leadership on a number of occasions as I understand it, and has been ignored.

And in fairness to the Church's leadership, they have no requirement to meet with someone who is a self-appointed representative for Mormon women. Despite desires to the contrary, the Church is not a bottom-up organization. People don't campaign to be heard by the brethren. (And we see, now, what happens when people do stridently try.)

Maybe [the brethren] will pray about it, but I am not holding my breath.

No need to hold your breath. It is just as speculative to say that they have prayed about it as to assume they haven't. I tend to think they have; Elder Oaks' conference talk was just too spot-on to not have been prayed over by him and, perhaps, others.

-Allen

[Wants2know]

Well, this development is interesting:

“The Church’s response to this situation is in the letter that was sent to Sister Kelly, which explained the decision and the reason for it,” according to a statement from the LDS Church. “Since Ordain Women has chosen to publish only selected excerpts with their interpretation, we suggest that Sister Kelly make the full letter available in the interests of transparency.”

Are there portions of the letter which may be less than helpful to the media narrative Kate Kelly has been trying to construct?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Well, that says a lot.

[ksfisher]

I agree Ksfisher. There is a Huge Difference.

 

Christ - Protested. (There is now Doubt)

Paul - Rioted and was Arrested.

 

 

.

CFR that Christ protested.

CFR that Paul rioted.

[Abulafia]

And in fairness to the Church's leadership, they have no requirement to meet with someone who is a self-appointed representative for Mormon women. Despite desires to the contrary, the Church is not a bottom-up organization. People don't campaign to be heard by the brethren. (And we see, now, what happens when people do stridently try.)No need to hold your breath. It is just as speculative to say that they have prayed about it as to assume they haven't. I tend to think they have; Elder Oaks' conference talk was just too spot-on to not have been prayed over by him and, perhaps, others.-Allen

No, they have no need to, but it would have been nice.

On your second point about Elder Oaks talk, it is interesting to speculate but unless he comes out and explicitly says *we prayed about it and the answer is no*, then all anyone can do is speculate.

[slamarwi]

With so deeply entrenched views about the role of patriarchy in the church, she is a brave woman. She's taken the bull by the horns with absolute confidence that she has God and right on her side.

I genuinely believe that she is trying to push for the church to be a healthier place for women. I do take Juliann's point about proceeding in such a way as to get the masses in.

In fairness to KK, she has tried to meet with leadership on a number of occasions as I understand it, and has been ignored. Until the brethren are receptive I think she is banging her head against a brick wall. Maybe they will pray about it, but I am not holding my breath.

She grabbed the wrong bull, and the wrong God.

 

She really needs to get direct revelation and start her own church. She'd be much happier.

[ERayR]

No, they have no need to, but it would have been nice.

 

It would be nice if they could meet one on one with every member of the Church, especially those who are questioning.  Unfortunately they don't thus we have Bishops and Stake Presidents to fill that place for them, making an ecclesiastical leader available to all.  There advice, I have heard it several times, would have been to meet with the local leaders.  She met with them, they counseled, rejected counsel and tryed to force her way to the front of the line and thus found out there were boundaries.  Something, it seems, she never before had known.

c

[Zakuska]

CFR that Christ protested.

CFR that Paul rioted.

 

John 2

13 ¶And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

 

That was a violent Protest IN the temple.

 

Acts 21

 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

 27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

 28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

 29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

 31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

 32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.

 33 Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done.

 

Paul Started a Riot.  And alll Jerusalem was in an Uproar and he was arrested. (He also started a Riot in Ephesus and got Arrested again)

 

What is Kate Kelly Guilty of?  Stepping toe on temple Square , Singing "The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning", and saying a Prayer that God would encorage the Bretheren to pray about it.

 

You really don't see the difference between Kate Kelly's actions and Paul and Christs Actions? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Bigger question, Why are people so threatened by Kate Kelly praying on temple Square? Are they affraid that she might get an answer?

 

Why not let her? If she prayed and didn't get an answer everyone would be shaking their head and she would have faded into the sunset.

It would have been better than all this bitter fighting in the Media over who can pray and sing on sacred ground and lightened the media recognition shes getting now.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Zakuska

[mormonnewb]

I've got a great idea! Let's start using high-tech robots, androids and supercomputers to run the Church at the local level! We can preprogram them to always do the right thing, never commit "sin", have them "memorize" all the scriptures, General Conference addresses, Ensign editions, and so on..., and give them lifelike voices of authority that sound like the General Authorities. This way we could eliminate the cursed "learn as you go" approach to Church leadership that makes newb so unhappy.

Wow! How did you completely miss my point?

I LIKE the learn as you go approach. I have no problem with a Church run by PEOPLE (only one of whom has ever been perfect). In fact, one of the beautiful parts of our theology is eternal PROGRESSION.

[mormonnewb]

The Church must ABSOLUTELY be run by God to have any value, otherwise there is no point to the Church. Period.

Okay, that convinced me

I guess it's too bad that the other 99% of Christians are completely wasting their time each weekend in churches. Because there is no value in this Savoir thing unless you have Him personally running your church.

[Duncan]

Okay, that convinced me

I guess it's too bad that the other 99% of Christians are completely wasting their time each weekend in churches. Because there is no value in this Savoir thing unless you have Him personally running your church.

 

It;s up to them if they are wasting their time in Churches every weekend. I see God working as having the various Christianities keeping ideas alive and people doing good works but the Church has the Priesthood,ordinances and correct idea of the nature of God and Christ. I see that because when the Church went into Africa most if not all of the people they baptized were already Christian so that step was already done by previous Christian ministeries-they line it up and we knock 'em down!

[sdc999]

Did Emma demand that Joseph produce a revelation from God on the matter and insist that "nothing less will suffice"?

Given the fact that I've been successfully married for over 20 years to a headstrong woman, I'm voting that, Yes, after cleaning up nasty spit, "nothing less will suffice" was probably much milder than what she uttered / demanded from Joseph.

[Stone holm]

I  don't think that the church had a choice but to excommunicate her. If they did not discipline her, her organization would have gotten legitimacy. And the church could not allow that to happen. I don't think that this will be the end of it but it does take the sail out of OW for awhile. The internet will be a buzz with this ruling for quite some time. However, it is sad that an active member of the church would have chosen the tactics that she chose to make her organization's points.

 

However, there is a side issue here: john dehlin. He is also facing court, I believe. If john is not treated in the same fashion, there will be heck to pay from the ladies. It would send a message that women must keep silent but the men can say what they want and still be a member. Lets see what happens.

I unfortunately agree. Having blundered into initiating a disciplinary council in the first place, the Church left itself with no other exit strategy. Of course the whole thing was actually about love for Sister Kelly, don't you know.

[ksfisher]

John 2

13 ¶And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

That was a violent Protest IN the temple.

Acts 21

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.

33 Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done.

Paul Started a Riot. And alll Jerusalem was in an Uproar and he was arrested. (He also started a Riot in Ephesus and got Arrested again)

What is Kate Kelly Guilty of? Stepping toe on temple Square , Singing "The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning", and saying a Prayer that God would encorage the Bretheren to pray about it.

You really don't see the difference between Kate Kelly's actions and Paul and Christs Actions? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Bigger question, Why are people so threatened by Kate Kelly praying on temple Square? Are they affraid that she might get an answer?

Why not let her? If she prayed and didn't get an answer everyone would be shaking their head and she would have faded into the sunset.

It would have been better than all this bitter fighting in the Media over who can pray and sing on sacred ground and lightened the media recognition shes getting now.

Christ's actions were not a protest. As the presiding priesthood authority of the temple he expelled those who were using the temple improperly.

Paul did not riot. Those who opposed his teaching of the gospel were responsible for the disturbance.

Kate Kelly's purpose on Temple Square was not to pray and sing songs. Her purpose was to gain admittance to the priesthood session and draw the media spotlight to her cause on the process.

Edited June 26, 2014 by ksfisher

[Avatar4321]

She grabbed the wrong bull, and the wrong God.

 

She really needs to get direct revelation and start her own church. She'd be much happier.

 

If she does get direct revelation to start her own church, she wouldn't be listening to the source of happiness.

[slamarwi]

If she does get direct revelation to start her own church, she wouldn't be listening to the source of happiness.

 

But she would be getting her way... and isn't that what she really wants?

[Calm]

Isn't that what we all want? Given that none of us have likely completely overcome our "natural man" sides.

Knowing why she is making her choices is something God knows much better than any of us. We only are good IMO at figuring out why we as individuals are reacting to her choices the way we choose.

Edited June 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[slamarwi]

Isn't that what we all want? Given that none of us have likely completely overcome our "natural man" sides.

Knowing why she is making her choices is something God knows much better than any of us. We only are good IMO at figuring out why we as individuals are reacting to her choices the way we choose.

 

Actually no. While it is true that the only way to completely overcome our "natural man" is to die, we can still reason and act with honor and decorum and not throw a tantrum just because someone won't give us everything we want.

 

No mater how many = bumperstickers people put on their cars, life is not equal and it's not fair.

 

If she truly loved the church (the Lord) as she states, why all the willful rebellion and belligerence?

[why me]

Calmoriah, yes, I have read the first discussion.

For me, OW has always been upfront about their aims and what they are advocating for. Ordain Women is a pretty clear title.

I don't think that this is the issue. The issue is her direct action organization which states that women must have the priesthood to achieve equality in the church. It is in the must. No room for compromise. So, if the GAs would say that they prayed about it and received a no answer, her group would still be advocating the priesthood and conducting missionary discussions. And if no action was taken against Kate what would stop me from forming an organization to bring back polygamy. I can call it Mormons for the Reinstatement of Polygamy. I can have a mission statement that the church must have polygamy and be very clear about what my organization is standing for. I then, can have the members of the group hold polygamy missionary discussions about the principle etc, in member's homes.

 

What do you think? Should I be excommunicated? So, we have kate with her organization, me with my organization and maybe others who have organizations for the relaxation of the chasity laws or word of wisdom laws. The lds church can be a direction action membership church.

 

However, If I were an exmember I would wish all the above to happen in the church because it would show a church is disarray and in disharmony. The more the members bicker among themselves the better. But if one truly loves the church, one wishes for harmony and unity so the church can be the harmonious body of christ, a place where the saints can come to have peace and worship as a community of saints. I think that this was Paul's wish too during his time for the church. But he failed since schisms happened after his death.

Edited June 26, 2014 by why me

[mormonnewb]

I unfortunately agree. Having blundered into initiating a disciplinary council in the first place, the Church left itself with no other exit strategy. Of course the whole thing was actually about love for Sister Kelly, don't you know.

 

I have certainly felt that "love" for her on this board.  And I'm sure Sister Kelly has felt it as well.  

[The Nehor]

I have certainly felt that "love" for her on this board.  And I'm sure Sister Kelly has felt it as well.  

 

I am guessing your definition of love and mine do not match.

[mormonnewb]

I am guessing your definition of love and mine do not match.

 

No offense, Brother, but I really hope they don't.