Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[pogi]

If God is there God has done a HORRIBLE job in communicating to His creations what he really wants us to believe and do.

 

Or perhaps we do a horrible job at communicating with Him to understand what He wants us to each individually believe and do.  If the Bible is all we have to rely on when it comes to knowing God's will for us then I agree, that would be "HORRIBLE".

 

The most important principle that I learned from those "nomadic tribes people in a large wasteland of a desert" who were "self proclaimed prophets" is that I don't have to take their word for anything.  They taught me that I can speak to God for myself and that he will answer.  Guess what...they were right!

Edited December 13, 2014 by pogi

[Teancum]

Or perhaps we do a horrible job at communicating with Him to understand what He wants us to each individually believe and do.  If the Bible is all we have to rely on when it comes to knowing God's will for us then I agree, that would be "HORRIBLE".

 

The most important principle that I learned from those "nomadic tribes people in a large wasteland of a desert" who were "self proclaimed prophets" is that I don't have to take their word for anything.  They taught me that I can speak to God for myself and that he will answer.  Guess what...they were right!

 

 

Pogi.... I like you. You think. You help me to think.

 

I have gone from avid TBM theist to perhaps agnostic or perhaps Deist.    I pray, I search, I seek... I do take this all quite seriously.

 

And by the way I am working on your recommendations in another thread. My problem is when I try the mediation/mindfulness approach my mind becomes very cluttered with all sorts of STUFF!

 

Again thanks for your measured and well thought out posts.

[pogi]

I pray, I search, I seek... I do take this all quite seriously.

 

And by the way I am working on your recommendations in another thread. My problem is when I try the mediation/mindfulness approach my mind becomes very cluttered with all sorts of STUFF!

 

I am really glad to hear that.  You have just made the first and very, very important discovery about yourself...your cluttered and distracted mind.  It is amazing how we don't really notice it until we sit and be still and pay attention.  Whenever we feel like asking "where is God?", we should always stop and discover where we (our minds and hearts) are at first.  Are we in-tune with His voice?  Do we have sufficient room in our hearts, or are our hearts and thoughts lost in the clutter of life?

 

Attention and meditation is a discipline - don't give up.  You will see results as you commit to it.  By doing so, you commit your time and therefore your life to God.  You will find Him in the present moment when you stop worrying about the future or being stuck in the past with regrets, etc.  "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."  That is the key!  We have to let ourselves hear. 

I highly recommend listening to those podcasts that I linked to by Lawrence Freeman - the Benedictine Monk.  He teaches the mantra which might be extremely helpful for you in learning to quiet your mind and center on God.  The principles that he teaches are applicable to all types of prayer however. 

Edited December 13, 2014 by pogi

[Teancum]

I am really glad to hear that.  You have just made the first and very, very important discovery about yourself...your cluttered and distracted mind.  It is amazing how we don't really notice it until we sit and be still and pay attention.  Whenever we feel like asking "where is God?", we should always stop and discover where we (our minds and hearts) are at first.  Are we in-tune with His voice?  Do we have sufficient room in our hearts, or are our hearts and thoughts lost in the clutter of life?

 

Attention and meditation is a discipline - don't give up.  You will see results as you commit to it.  By doing so, you commit your time and therefore your life to God.  You will find Him in the present moment when you stop worrying about the future or being stuck in the past with regrets, etc.  "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."  That is the key!  We have to let ourselves hear. 

I highly recommend listening to those podcasts that I linked to by Lawrence Freeman - the Benedictine Monk.  He teaches the mantra which might be extremely helpful for you in learning to quiet your mind and center on God.  The principles that he teaches are applicable to all types of prayer however. 

 

 

If there was  LIKE option I would do it for this post. Thanks!

[Canadaigua]

Just to be clear, I am asking you if your heart of hearts believes that the vast majority of the population of the earth from the beginning of time - the billions upon billion, upon billions of good loving and charitable people who never had a chance to have Christ preached to them are going to suffer in eternal damnation and suffering for no fault of their own?

As I said before salvation comes through faith in Christ.  Those who place their faith in false gods will not be saved.

[Canadaigua]

Canadaiqua

Do you really believe that you can follow any God you choose and any gospel and expect to be saved?

Yes, I really do.  All those who are true to the light that they are given from the God of heaven, no matter how they interpret it will be led to the true God of Heaven whether in this life or the next.  You see, we believe in the Biblical baptism for the dead.   Do you really believe that all Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus will burn?

You say that you believe in the Bible but your beliefs run contrary to what is stated in the Bible.  Why is that do you think?

[pogi]

As I said before salvation comes through faith in Christ.  Those who place their faith in false gods will not be saved.

 

I don't disagree with that.  I simply see the big picture different from you.  I know that this is your logical conclusion based on what you think the scriptures teach without being able to see the big picture.  But I didn't ask you what you think the Bible says.  I asked if your heart of hearts really believes that those billions of good people who would have accepted the gospel had it been preached to them, are going to suffer eternal hell fire because you couldn't reach them in time?  How can you lay your head down if that is so?  Honestly, I don't know how you can sleep at night with that belief - if that is truly what you heart believes.  Those poor, poor beloved sons and daughters of God...hopeless and helplessly doomed to eternal hell fire.  Awful...dreadful, makes me sick to think about.

 

I think of the tremendous guilt you must feel for every moment wasted watching TV or simply going on a walk, knowing that you may have just sealed the fate of some soul to hell because you failed to make a contact that might have resulted in faith.  Heavy stuff!

 

 I am a hospice nurse and have attended the death of several non-Christians.  I do not think I could do this job if I had your belief, it would eat at my soul every day.  I do not weep dreadfully for them however because I know their heart and I understand the teachings of the Bible and the hope in the baptism for the dead.  They had better hearts than many Christians I know.  I understand the teachings in the bible about the degrees of glory, I am confident that they will have a place in it. 

 

You say that you believe in the Bible but your beliefs run contrary to what is stated in the Bible.  Why is that do you think?

 

Well, it's quite simple, I understand the Bible different from you.  If I am wrong, I guess I will burn...and yet I have a calm and peaceful assurance in the Spirit.  I am entirely and humbly confident in my relationship with the Lord, He has assured me that I am on the path that I need to be on.  No fear at all.  Don't worry, if your perspective is a little off, you are protected from burning under the Mormon umbrella.  We've got you covered my friend! We work diligently in the temples to make it so.  It is a work of love indeed.  And so I sleep in the grace of God and assurance of His love for ALL his creation.  He will not abandon one soul from hearing His word and having a hope in the resurrection and degree of glory for all of those that the evangelists could not reach in time. 

Edited December 14, 2014 by pogi

[GingerRed]

Canadaigua

 

I agree with what pogi said. Very well put.

 

You see, LDS don't really use the term 'saved'. We aren't striving to be saved. We are already saved...IF ..we follow the commandments, live the gospel and endure to the end.  We do all we can do..then the Lord's grace, takes us the rest of the way.  Everyone on earth...good, bad and everything in between...will be resurrected and given the kingdom they are best suited for. ( 3 degrees of Glory) 

 

What we strive for and hope for is Eternal Life and exaltation. That's OUR goal...the big picture.  To live in God's presence again forever with our families. Just being 'saved' isn't enough. We want the higher goal. 

 

This article by our Elder Oaks is very good at explaining about what 'saved' means to us:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/05/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng

 

If you read that, then you might better understand where we are coming from.

 

Red

[danielwoods]

Canadaigua

 

I agree with what pogi said. Very well put.

 

You see, LDS don't really use the term 'saved'. We aren't striving to be saved. We are already saved...IF ..we follow the commandments, live the gospel and endure to the end.  We do all we can do..then the Lord's grace, takes us the rest of the way.  Everyone on earth...good, bad and everything in between...will be resurrected and given the kingdom they are best suited for. ( 3 degrees of Glory) 

 

What we strive for and hope for is Eternal Life and exaltation. That's OUR goal...the big picture.  To live in God's presence again forever with our families. Just being 'saved' isn't enough. We want the higher goal. 

 

This article by our Elder Oaks is very good at explaining about what 'saved' means to us:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/05/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng

 

If you read that, then you might better understand where we are coming from.

 

Red

 

Right. And according to the bible there is no "just" being saved. There are only two places that are taught about, heaven or hell. With God or not. There are no 3 degrees of heaven taught in the bible. 

 

So, when we talk about being "saved" we are talking about the highest level of glory and exaltation, because all who are saved are in the same heaven, and all who are not, are in the same hell. 

[Calm]

Right. And according to the bible there is no "just" being saved. There are only two places that are taught about, heaven or hell. With God or not. There are no 3 degrees of heaven taught in the bible. 

 

So, when we talk about being "saved" we are talking about the highest level of glory and exaltation, because all who are saved are in the same heaven, and all who are not, are in the same hell. 

And yet….

 

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/Concept_of_Hell

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/History_of_the_belief_in_a_three-part_heaven

Edited December 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[Vance]

We absolutely believe in a different God (or gods in your case).  If you would like we could discuss these differences.

There is no "discussion" with you. You simply are beating your one note drum, totally incapable of actually understanding and acknowledging what we are telling you.

[Vance]

Actually I do know what you believe.  The first obvious difference is that you believe in many gods which is by definition polytheism. 

Actually, you don't.

 

You throw around that word "polytheism" for shock value, yet you don't acknowledge that Trinitarianism is not "monotheism" either.

 

You know, that old "the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God".  Three separate and distinct persons/individual/beings are "God".

 

You can do all sorts of logical contortions and tortuous explanations as to why three is really one, but the fact remains Trinitarianism is NOT "monotheism.

 

What we believe is described by Paul. "5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

  6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

 

[GingerRed]

And yet….

 

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/Concept_of_Hell

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/History_of_the_belief_in_a_three-part_heaven

 

 Thank you Cal....those are excellent references! 

 

It shows LDS were never the only ones who taught there's more to just one  'heaven'...

 

 

Red

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As I said before salvation comes through faith in Christ.  Those who place their faith in false gods will not be saved.

That sounds like I have to do something. I thought that salvations was a free gift. If I have to believe in the right things that sounds like I have earned salvation. It no longer is a free gift.

[Anakin7]

 From My LDS Kryptonian JEDI Knight Lights True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought is that we are True Godheadians/Trinitarians - We Believe/Teach an Anchient Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Essential/Social/Godhead/Trinity, not a polytheistic [ A god over each and every aspect of nature] form/model of gods as our self proclaimed expert on Mormonism coolrok from the Missouri Lutheran Synod who also volunteers at ex - Mormons for Jesus in orange County Ca. would portray us in counterfiting our True Belief on this subject. We Believe and have Faith in The True and Living GOD not a hellenized  greek middle platonic Form/model.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Anakin7, can you quote any General Authority saying or supporting what you just said?

[thesometimesaint]

 From My LDS Kryptonian JEDI Knight Lights True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought is that we are True Godheadians/Trinitarians - We Believe/Teach an Anchient Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Essential/Social/Godhead/Trinity, not a polytheistic [ A god over each and every aspect of nature] form/model of gods as our self proclaimed expert on Mormonism coolrok from the Missouri Lutheran Synod who also volunteers at ex - Mormons for Jesus in orange County Ca. would portray us in counterfiting our True Belief on this subject. We Believe and have Faith in The True and Living GOD not a hellenized  greek middle platonic Form/model.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

 

That's quite a mouthful.

[danielwoods]

And yet….

 

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/Concept_of_Hell

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/History_of_the_belief_in_a_three-part_heaven

 

As I stated, "There are only two places that are taught about, heaven or hell. With God or not. There are no 3 degrees of heaven taught in the bible. "

 

 

You quote of Paul isn't a teaching on different levels of heaven. He is mentioning his experience, not teaching about it. The clearest teaching is from Jesus where the rich man and lazarus both die. No three degrees is taught. 

[thesometimesaint]

 

As I stated, "There are only two places that are taught about, heaven or hell. With God or not. There are no 3 degrees of heaven taught in the bible. "

 

You quote of Paul isn't a teaching on different levels of heaven. He is mentioning his experience, not teaching about it. The clearest teaching is from Jesus where the rich man and lazarus both die. No three degrees is taught. 

 

Glory of the sun, Glory of the moon, glory of the stars. Right in the Bible.

SEE

1 Corinthians 15:41King James Version (KJV)

⁴¹ There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[danielwoods]

 

Glory of the sun, Glory of the moon, glory of the stars. Right in the Bible.

SEE

1 Corinthians 15:41King James Version (KJV)

⁴¹ There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

 

 

Substitue "brightness" for glory, and you'll see he's not talking about different and separate levels of heaven, rather different degrees of rewards. There is no teaching in the bible that states that heaven is chopped up into three distinct and separate places. 

[thesometimesaint]

Substitue "brightness" for glory, and you'll see he's not talking about different and separate levels of heaven, rather different degrees of rewards. There is no teaching in the bible that states that heaven is chopped up into three distinct and separate places. 

 

I see no reason to substitute your misunderstandings for the Scriptures.

SEE 1 Corintians 15: 40-42

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

[danielwoods]

I see no reason to substitute your misunderstandings for the Scriptures.

SEE 1 Corintians 15: 40-42

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 

What is it that you think that Glory means? 

 

The reference to different glories of different astronomical bodies doesn't indicate a separate heaven for each, since all share the same space and time. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What is it that you think that Glory means? 

 

The reference to different glories of different astronomical bodies doesn't indicate a separate heaven for each, since all share the same space and time. 

What it means that all are not the same. What is a kingdom. That is a great question. What is heaven? Is it really a different place from where we are now? After all we are all going to be in the same place.

 

But you agree that during the resurrection that not all bodies will recieve the same glory. Not all get teh same reward. You at least admited that. That is quite a foreign concept to your evangelical way of thinking.

 

Paul speaks of a 3rd hevean. And thus we have come full circle.

 

You know exactly where we get our doctrine, the bible.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[boblloyd91]

What it means that all are not the same. What is a kingdom. That is a great question. What is heaven? Is it really a different place from where we are now? After all we are all going to be in the same place.

 

But you agree that during the resurrection that not all bodies will recieve the same glory. Not all get teh same reward. You at least admited that. That is quite a foreign concept to your evangelical way of thinking.

 

Paul speaks of a 3rd hevean. And thus we have come full circle.

 

You know exactly where we get our doctrine, the bible.

 

There will probably be endless arguments between Mormons/Evangelicals/Catholics/Pentecostals/Muslims/ JW's etc. until the end of the world. All will look at the same evidence, the same arguments, and come to differing conclusions, it's human nature. I'm amazed that this thread is now at 99 pages. My question is this: why should we as LDS care what Evangelicals think? Are they the gatekeepers to Heaven? Do they have an infallible understanding of scripture? I think Evangelicals make us uncomfortable because they are the majority religious voice in our culture, and have loudly proclaimed that if you aren't Evangelical, you aren't going to heaven. Though I love the church, I am mildly annoyed when we try so hard to be accepted by Evangelicals, because they will NEVER fully accept us. Yes, we may have the Craig Blombergs, Richard Mouws, and Greg Johnsons who want to have a dialogue and be respectful, but ultimately Evangelicals on a whole will not accept us on our own terms. I don't think the anyone in the early church cared about Evangelical opinions of their Christianity because they read their bibles for themselves, and had their own experiences with Christ. Plus it was possibly Evangelicals that were kicking us out of our homes, and killing our families in Missouri and Haun's mill. It was Evangelicals who kept LDS from voting in Idaho during the early days of its' statehood. We need to stop letting their insults and hatred cause us to second guess ourselves, or our testimonies, if we have them. I will admit that mine isn't perfect, but I highly doubt I would join any Evangelical denomination due to the hatred, arrogance, and lack of compassion common to so many I have seen (i.e. James White, Dave Hunt, etc.) 

[pogi]

You quote of Paul isn't a teaching on different levels of heaven. He is mentioning his experience, not teaching about it. 

 

So, the fact that Paul actually experienced the "third heaven", as you suggest (implying that there are two others), is not evidence enough?  The fact that he shared this experience without having to teach about it (even though sharing experience is a form of teaching) suggests that it was common knowledge.  It seems as if everybody already knew that there were three heavens - no explanation required, no shock, no up-roar, no weird looks from people thinking "who is this whacko talking about three heavens!", but it was quietly accepted.  You cannot erase it. 

 

 The clearest teaching is from Jesus where the rich man and lazarus both die. No three degrees is taught. 

 

Not so clear to me , seems that none of the sects can agree on these verses (see link) - not the "clearest" teaching on heaven (if you can even call it that) by any means.  It was not even intended as a preview of life after death, but Christ was teaching a different lesson.  Even if it was an accurate depiction of the after-life, we believe that all spirits dwell in either paradise or hell (spirit prison) before the resurrection, which is depicted accurately in this parable and confirms our beliefs. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus#cite_note-14

Edited December 15, 2014 by pogi