Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Vance]

In terms of religious paradox, we may refer to the Christian doctrine of Jesus as fully divine and fully human. No one can comprehend how such a thing could be.

Actually it is very easy to comprehend how it could be.  Simply deny the false dichotomy between God and man.

 

Jesus and the Father are Human, thus there is not a contradiction in Jesus being fully divine and fully human.

 

See how easy it is?

 

However, it is not a flat contradiction. A logical contradiction posits two mutually exclusive premises, such as "James is a man and is not a man", where the term "man" means the same thing on both sides of the statement. This point is frequently misunderstood.

 

When you create this impassible divide between God and man, Creator and creature you create the contradiction that Jesus could not be both fully divine and fully man.  The fabrication of this impassible divide was a human fabrication not a divine one.

 

If you reject this man-made divide then there is no need for the fabrication of a "mystery" to explain its violation.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

One option is to redefine the truth so that it makes sense. 

Oh, so you just make up "truth" when it is convenient for you.

 

Interesting.

 

the other option is to accept that not all truth will be completely understandable to our finite minds.

Oh, so truth is not logical?  It is not reason?

[Canadaigua]

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.  If that is different from you, then yes, it is different from you.

We absolutely believe in a different God (or gods in your case).  If you would like we could discuss these differences.

[Canadaigua]

Please see post 1887.  I already addressed this, but you neglected to answer my question in that post.

yogi part of post 1887 below

 

"We too believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.  We simply perceive (I should say "believe") the "oneness" differently. 

 

We do not doubt that Jesus is the Christ and Savior of the world.  He is our God too. . ."

 

 

I am certain you know why Evangelical Christians say that LDS worship different gods.  But if you are unaware of these differences I would be happy to discuss them with you.  Let's start with this obvious difference.  Christians believe that there is only one God (monotheism), LDS believe in many gods (polytheism). 

[Canadaigua]

It is rather obvious that you don't know what we believe.

 

And it is extremely rude to tell us what we believe and get it wrong.

 

Actually I do know what you believe.  The first obvious difference is that you believe in many gods which is by definition polytheism. 

[pogi]

But if you are unaware of these differences I would be happy to discuss them with you. 

 

I am aware of the differences of perception, but they are only differences of perception.  We talk to the same Father, we just perceive Him differently.

 

Again, you didn't answer my question.  For your convenience:

 

Can you say that you "know" that we are not Christians and will not be saved because we don't believe in Christ?

Edited December 13, 2014 by pogi

[Canadaigua]

I am aware of the perceived differences, but they are only differences of perception.

 

Belief in many gods (polytheism) verses belief in one God (monotheism).  

 

Are these different beliefs?

[pogi]

Belief in many gods (polytheism) verses belief in one God (monotheism).  

 

Are these different beliefs?

 

Why should I keep answering your questions if you are going to avoid mine?

[Canadaigua]

 

Can you say that you "know" that we are not Christians and will not be saved because we don't believe in Christ?

I KNOW that if you believe in a different God and follow a different gospel you will not be saved.  Not all LDS believe in the LDS gospel and the LDS gods and if they place their faith in the true God of the Bible and His gospel they will be saved.

[Canadaigua]

Why should I keep answering your questions if you are going to avoid mine?

Do you really believe that you can follow any God you choose and any gospel and expect to be saved?

[pogi]

I KNOW that if you believe in a different God and follow a different gospel you will not be saved.  Not all LDS believe in the LDS gospel and the LDS gods and if they place their faith in the true God of the Bible and His gospel they will be saved.

 

According to your beliefs, all we need to do is accept Jesus as our personal savior.  Done.  Am I in?  Can I play with the other Christian kids in heaven now?

[Canadaigua]

I am aware of the differences of perception, but they are only differences of perception. . .

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 )

 

Above is a quote from President Hinckley.  Do you agree or disagree with what he said?

[pogi]

Do you really believe that you can follow any God you choose and any gospel and expect to be saved?

 

Yes, I really do.  All those who are true to the light that they are given from the God of heaven, no matter how they interpret it will be led to the true God of Heaven whether in this life or the next.  You see, we believe in the Biblical baptism for the dead.   Do you really believe that all Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus will burn?

[Canadaigua]

According to your beliefs, all we need to do is accept Jesus as our personal savior.  Done.  Am I in?  Can I play with the other Christian kids in heaven now?

Sure if you reject the gods of Mormonism and the works based salvation and place your faith in the one true God and his gospel then you will be saved.  BTW if you think that this is so easy why haven't you done so?

[Canadaigua]

Yes, I really do.  All those who are true to the light that they are given from the God of heaven, no matter how they interpret it will be led to the true God of Heaven whether in this life or the next.  You see, we believe in the Biblical baptism for the dead.   Do you really believe that all Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus will burn?

So I can be exalted and retain my Evangelical beliefs?  Is that what you are saying?

[pogi]

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 )

 

Above is a quote from President Hinckley.  Do you agree or disagree with what he said?

 

In other words, the "traditional Christ" is the wrong perception, right God. Your getting caught up in semantics.

Edited December 13, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

So I can be exalted and retain my Evangelical beliefs?  Is that what you are saying?

Again, answer my question first before asking new ones.  That is proper etiquette.

[Canadaigua]

. . .Do you really believe that all Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus will burn?

 

 

 

Are you asking me if a person can be saved without placing their faith in Christ (or for those in the OT the future Messiah)?  The answer is no they cannot.

 

There are lots of verses in the Bible on this--certainly you know them.

[pogi]

Are you asking me if a person can be saved without placing their faith in Christ (or for those in the OT the future Messiah)?  The answer is no they cannot.

 

There are lots of verses in the Bible on this--certainly you know them.

 

Just to be clear, I am asking you if your heart of hearts believes that the vast majority of the population of the earth from the beginning of time - the billions upon billion, upon billions of good loving and charitable people who never had a chance to have Christ preached to them are going to suffer in eternal damnation and suffering for no fault of their own?

Edited December 13, 2014 by pogi

[danielwoods]

The word God can be used in multiple ways and may mean different things depending on the words the English term was translated from.

You believe that God the Father, God the Son,God the Spirit are three persons/individuals. In order to deal with the biblical label "one, true God" you (or rather those who developed the theory) created a new definition of "a being" by stipulating there is a fundamental, incomprehensible difference between an infinite being (which God is) and a finite being (in your view, man). An infinite being must be able to have multiple individuals if the scriptures are to be reconciled, in this view. A finite being is only one individual in this view. This is how the mystery has been defined (if not explained given it is contrary as far as I am aware to mortal understanding at this point). I am not using the term "mystery" to mean "puzzle" but in the religious sense.

If I am wrong, please point out where.

Close enough.

 

OTOH, LDS while also believing in God the Father,God the Son and God the Spirit as three persons/individuals whose roles are described throughout scripture, we have chosen not to create a new definition but instead assume that at certain places what is translated as "God" is plural (such as Eloheim) or is a collective noun (along the lines of the Divine Council as described in the Bible). We choose to use the term Godhead at times. "God" is thus at times a name for the three individuals who hold the office of God together, but for us IMO "God" is not a unique being, but a title of a category or even better IMO a family name/role. Thus we can also speak of our belief in the one, true God and we no more believe that verse denies our belief than you do, because it can either be speaking of God the Father (the usual interpretation) who is the God that all in the Divine Council obey and align their wills and desires with (become one with in heart and mind) or it could be speaking of the Godhead who sent one of their members to fulfill his unique mission.

The use of the term "God" as "Office holder" or a Title or category or a "family" name/role, runs into difficulty because if the biblical writers intended the term "God" to mean those things, they could have just as easily used that specific terminology to indicate "office holder" or "family" or what have you. The underlying assumption I hear from the LDS perspective is that God must be understandable, and therefore must fit into defined perimeters that are understandable. When Moses asked God, whom shall I say has sent me? God replied with, tell them the "I AM" as sent you. He didn't say it's a family name, office, role or anything. "I AM" indicates a usage of language that goes to the limits of our understanding. We don't come to the front door and say, "I AM" is here... it is obviously different from humanity to such an extent, that he doesn't rely on anyone or anything to exist. Rather, all existence relies on him. 

 

Because of your insistence that God is three individuals, I could claim that you believe in many Gods just as you claim LDS do. If I made that claim, it would be neither unique or startling given this claim has been around almost as long as there have been Christians as far as i can tell and in general this is how Jews and Muslims who see God as not only one being, but one individual dismiss the Trinitarian claim as nonscriptural and blasphemous.

However, I am quite comfortable to allow you to define your understanding of what "God" means and what the phrase "one true God" implies for that understanding and I will defend your choice to label your faith montheistic even if I believe you are wrong in your understanding of the nature of God. I claim the same privilege of defining my faith and my understanding of the nature of God and the equal legitimancy of my faith proclaiming our devotion to the One True God and Jesus, who he sent.

I will debate whether a particular verse supports a particular reading without a Trinitarian or Godhead assumption being placed into the context though.

As I have said before, even in the Evangelical community there are some wacky beliefs, and I'm not the final arbiter of who's right or wrong, and who goes to heaven or not or even how much error God allows. Not my job.

So, I don't really see this whole discussion as a discussion of whether or not the LDS are Christian or not, because that's way above my pay grade. Rather, for me it's more about truth and what does the Bible teach. So, I agree with you that both Jews and Muslims accused (and still do) Christians of polytheism.

As for whether the LDS are polytheists or not is a curious question to me, because I hear both. I hear LDS say that there are many Gods, and I hear them also deny that they are polytheists.

Edited December 13, 2014 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

""In Christ" is a description of the state of all believers. Jesus used it in John 17 and Paul in numerous places. It is a description of the spiritual state of all believers."

And yet when you say "inChrist" you are in no way suggesting you are the same being with him, correct? If so, then how does this related to the oneness of the individuals we know as the Father, the Son and the Spirit as the same being as well as different persons?

(I assume you do not use "being" here as an organization of individuals such as a family).

 

 

The Father, Son, and Spirit are one being what we call God. The description of God, is that he is "Spirit" and what exactly that means we don't know. What we do know is that we also have his spirit when we are born again. When we are "in christ" we aren't all the sudden the same being as he is, rather we are connected spiritually into his family so to speak. 

 

How is it different? The difference, is that God is not confined by humanity, he had no beginning and has no end, no creator. There's no end to his energy and power. Infinite is the only word that describes him. Which by it's very definition precludes there being two infinite beings.

 

I'm sure that didn't answer your question very well, sorry I feel inadequate and unable to fully articulate what I'm thinking. 

[Calm]

"Infinite is the only word that describes him. Which by it's very definition precludes there being two infinite beings.". Explain...space is infinite...this does not prevent time from being infinite.

[coolrok7]

There is a distinction to be made between Joseph's "God", a "plurality of gods" and the Biblical God, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD". The nature of God as spirit does not include a body of flesh and bones although we do believe Jesus became a main the incarnation as the Bible teaches in conjunction with Him having to die so that we might live again in the resurrection. Bodies die, spirits don't in which the spirit leaves the body at death:

 

All are to be crammed into one God, . . .(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

 

In an older Missionary training manual it states in a dialogue between a missionary and a Mister Brown:

 

Elder:   . . .BUT WHAT DO WE LEARN ABOUT GOD FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF JOSEPH SMITH?

 

Brown:   That he has a real body.

 

Elder:   Yes he does. THE CHURCHES ALSO TAUGHT THATGOD THE FATHER  AND JESUS CHRIST, HIS SON, WERE BOTH THE SAME PERSON. . . .(A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, p.12)

 

And these statements by both a Mormon and Jehovah's Witnesses in publications offered to the public, neither of which accurately represents what the Trinitarian view is:

 

The oneness of the Father and the Son:  There has been much misunderstanding concerning the oft-repeated statement that Jesus and his Father are one. A careful reading of the seventeenth chapter of John. . .(John 17:11). . .Now it is very apparent that Jesus was not speaking of oneness of personage, but oneness of purpose, . . .for if Jesus and his Father were one in person, how absurd to think that Jesus would pray unto himself, . . .(A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Legrand Richards, p.22)

 

If Jesus were the Almighty God, he would not have prayed to himself, would he? Since Jesus prayed to God, . . .the two could not be the same person (You can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p.39)

 

In its essence, the view is that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are the one God not the same person which is modalism. Jesus was already God in the Godhead and became or took on the nature of a man by being born of the Virgin Mary which makes Him both God and man. We are eternal beings since our conception in a future direction while Jesus is eternal (uncreated) as God in both directions, past and future.

 

This will be in eternal life for all believers whether they heard about Jesus or not) while non-believers will be in eternal punishment, judged by a Righteous Judge, Jesus, Who knows those who are His will judge all righteously. No one goes to an eternal punishment without them rejecting the truth they knew at the time they lived. Those who heard of Jesus and rejected Him or believed the teaching of a false prophet concerning Him are in the same boat as those who rejected the truth they had and gave up in believing something else other than the truth which can be known from the Bible.

 

I've never told a Mormon or anyone else that I know they "are going to hell". Jesus does say that there is a hell (Gehenna, the Greek term used as translated hell in English) for those who don't believe at their death, meted out at the Judgment Day. Hell is for those who didn't in faith live their lives based on the truth understood at the time which would be what Paul discusses in Romans 1&2 (general revelation) where it is stated that they are without excuse and gave up the knowledge of God that they had.

 

I do believe that Joseph Smith did teach some Christian doctrine but denied it ultimately when he imposed on the Bible heretical teaching, not of God. This is why I cannot accept Mormonism as being Christian. This goes for all who do this, not just Joseph Smith.

 

In answer to the thread question in addition to what I've said already, Mormons need to give up what Joseph taught that is not Christian to be in obedience to that which God requires of all who are of faith in the Jesus of Biblical Revelation. Jesus will ultimately decide this for all of us. He's already said what the truth is, speaking of Himself.

Edited December 13, 2014 by coolrok7

[danielwoods]

"Infinite is the only word that describes him. Which by it's very definition precludes there being two infinite beings.". Explain...space is infinite...this does not prevent time from being infinite.

Space and time are not known to occupy anything in the sense of displacement of other things. So not really an applicable example to my mind.

A better example is to imagine a room where only one person will fit. The size of the room limits how many can reside in it, in this case only one.

The universe, for the sake of our discussion is infinite in size. Thus logic dictates that only one infinite being can fit in the universe. Other beings that reside there are not infinite, so they literally reside inside the one infinite being, in him we move and have our being.

Edited December 13, 2014 by danielwoods

[Teancum]

Ahh so fun!

 

98 pages of various parties arguing their a priori dogmatic assumptions about what a text thousands of years old that was written in large part by nomadic tribes people in a large wasteland of a desert.

 

Really all, do you each really think you have the corner market on what God, if God is there, really teaches and wants us to do.

 

The Bible is one of the most inconsistent texts that exists.  Oh I know there are all sorts of attempts to correlate and read back into OT passages from the NT to make it appear is was prophesying of Jesus when it was really doing nothing of the sort.

 

If God is there God has done a HORRIBLE job in communicating to His creations what he really wants us to believe and do.

 

I am sure you will all ignore this and continue to argue.  Have fun with that.  When God really decided to reveal itself to what it created I hope it is in a more clear form than a handful of self proclaimed prophets. 

Edited December 13, 2014 by Teancum