Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A bit tired of the flippant criticism, Mola? Don't you just love people who condemn us to hell in under five seconds and care so little about it they wander off afterwards?

Yeah, it does get old.

 

I admit, that I probably shouldn't respond the way I do some times. But I want people to see how unuseful, what they are saying, is. So posting something similar might get them to see that?

 

 

I think what is so funny is that they believe, adimately, that you don't need to do anything to be saved. Then they tell us that if we believe in Mormonism then we are going to hell. We have to not only believe in Christ but we have to believe the right things. I mean if that is not doing something, then I don't know what is.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Rock_N_Roll]

Sure.  But the key is that they would need to accept the God of the Bible and His gospel--not the gods of Mormonism and the false LDS gospel.

 

Hope that answers your question.

 

Oh, but we Do accept the God of the Bible and His gospel.

 

So, are you saying we must accept the God of the Bible and His gospel- as defined by you? 

[Canadaigua]

A bit tired of the flippant criticism, Mola? Don't you just love people who condemn us to hell in under five seconds and care so little about it they wander off afterwards?

My post wasn't "flippant"--rather was it was a honest response to an important question raised in the OP.  

 

Since you know that we worship a different God (LDS--gods) and follow a different gospel would you expect an Evangelical Christian to give you a different response?

[Canadaigua]

Oh, but we Do accept the God of the Bible and His gospel.

 

So, are you saying we must accept the God of the Bible and His gospel- as defined by you? 

I am certain that you believe that the LDS gods are the same as taught in the Bible since you are LDS, but that wasn't the question that was posed in the OP of this thread.  

 

Don't you believe that you follow a different god (gods) and a different gospel than that taught by Evangelical Christians?

[pogi]

Don't you believe that you follow a different god (gods) and a different gospel than that taught by Evangelical Christians?

 

No, I believe that we follow the same God, we simply have different perspectives.  The same God speaks to you that speaks to me.

[pogi]

would you expect an Evangelical Christian to give you a different response?

 

Yes.

 

Respected evangelical leaders such as Joel Osteen have said yes.

"The president of Fuller Theological Seminary, Dr. Richard Mouw, who has been recognized as an important voice among reform-oriented evangelicals, confessed that evangelicals have spread lies about LDS beliefs."

http://www.evangelicalsandmormonsforjesus.com/

Less than one-third of the general public in the United States believe that Mormons are not Christians.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/19478/religion-poll-2

[Canadaigua]

No, I believe that we follow the same God, we simply have different perspectives.  The same God speaks to you that speaks to me.

But you believe in many gods.  Which one of your gods do you think is the same as the Christian God?

[Vance]

Which of one of your gods do you think is the same as the Christian God?

 

Both, God the Eternal Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Canadaigua]

Both, God the Eternal Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

So two separate and distinct gods are the same as the Christian God which is one God?

 

Your Twenty Questions approach to dialogue is wearing thin. Please engage in a discussion.

[Calm]

So two separate and distinct gods are the same as the Christian God which is one God?

Do you believe that God is three people/persons?

[thesometimesaint]

So two separate and distinct gods are the same as the Christian God which is one God?

 

The Christian Bible uses the term Godhead, never the term or its cognates for Trinity, for God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

 

In the Bible Jesus doesn't know what his father knows. Doesn't want the same thing as his father. Prays to his father not to himself. Claims to only do what he has seen his father do. Therefor they are separate and distinct Gods.

[pogi]

But you believe in many gods.  Which one of your gods do you think is the same as the Christian God?

 

We too believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.  We simply perceive (I should say "believe") the "oneness" differently. 

 

We do not doubt that Jesus is the Christ and Savior of the world.  He is our God too.

 

Please read the "fast facts" as to why your evangelical friends know (not believe) that we are Christians.  They say:  "Helen and I are not taking this stand because we have another opinion-- opinions are already too easy to find--it’s because the Spirit of the living God has revealed it to us. Have you ever noticed that virtually all non-Mormons who say the Mormon Church isn’t Christian, don’t say that God told them so? The reason is He didn’t!"

 

Please read the facts and consider their testimony:

http://www.evangelicalsandmormonsforjesus.com/fast-facts.htm

 

Can you say that you "know" that we are not Christians and will not be saved because we don't believe in Christ?

Edited December 10, 2014 by pogi

[Vance]

So two separate and distinct gods are the same as the Christian God which is one God?

We believe in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ as the Bible describes.

 

1. Eph. 1: 2-3, 17
     2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
     3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
         •  •  •
     17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
2. 1 Thes. 1: 1, 3
     1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
         •  •  •
     3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
3. 2 Cor. 1: 2-3
     2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
     3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4. Col. 1: 2-3
     2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
     3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
5. 1 Thes. 3: 11, 13
     11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
         •  •  •
     13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
6. 2 Thes. 1: 1-2
     1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
     2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
7. Rom. 1: 7
     7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8. Rom. 15: 6
     6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. 1 Cor. 1: 3
     3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
10. 1 Cor. 8: 6
      6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
11. 2 Cor. 11: 31
      31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
12. Gal. 1: 3
      3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
13. Eph. 5: 20
      20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
14. Eph. 6: 23
      23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Philip. 1: 2
      2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Philip. 2: 11
      11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
17. 2 Thes. 2: 16
      16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
18. 1 Tim. 1: 2
      2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
19. 2 Tim. 1: 2
      2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
20. Titus 1: 4
      4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
21. Philem. 1: 3
      3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
22. 1 Pet. 1: 3
      3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
23. 2 Jn. 1: 3
      3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

[3DOP]

Canadaigua,

 

Non-LDS can disagree with Mormonism on any number of important issues without the absurdity of trying to define it as a non-Christian religion. It seems that only with a narrow and novel use of the word can we exclude those who believe in the historical claims of the four Gospels from being minimally Christian on the basis of their beliefs about the Godhead. They believe the Son of God was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, rising again on the third day. A non-Christian religion can't teach the things that Mormons believe about Christ and the Gospel record. If I were a voting member of an imaginary "Union of Non-Christian Religions", should Mormons apply, I would not hesitate in voting against their entry. They disqualify themselves in too many obvious ways. 

 

Among the wide variety of conflicting Trinitarian positions that Evangelical Christians are permitted to disagree about, one is called Social Trinitarianism. It appears to be a growing minority view among Evangelicals as well as Mormons, but it is no impediment to being faithful and temple worthy LDS. If Mormons in good standing with their church are allowed to have a belief in the Trinity that is acceptable to Evangelical Christianity, how can we conclude that Mormonism is necessarily non-Christian? If pressed, and I have a reason to say so, I am willing to admit that as a Catholic, I hold that Mormons are in a false religion, but with that concession, I must insist that it is a false Christian religion. From a Catholic or Evangelical perspective, there are better reasons to steer those under our influence towards our own churches without making the imprudent and inaccurate claim that Mormons are in no way Christian. 

 

If for no other reason than that Mormons find it deeply offensive to be labelled "non-Christian", even if I believed it, I would always try to find a way to avoid making my opinion about them known to them. What is the point? Maybe some whose spiritual residence is underneath the wide umbrella called Evangelicalism, need to ask themselves, "Is Evangelicalism about outreach, or alienation?"      

 

3DOP

Edited December 10, 2014 by 3DOP

[danielwoods]

Canadaigua, on 10 Dec 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

So two separate and distinct gods are the same as the Christian God which is one God?

The Christian Bible uses the term Godhead, never the term or its cognates for Trinity, for God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

 

In the Bible Jesus doesn't know what his father knows. Doesn't want the same thing as his father. Prays to his father not to himself. Claims to only do what he has seen his father do. Therefor they are separate and distinct Gods.

There is but only one God according to the Bible. The nature of that one God includes what we would describe as three distinct individuals or persons.

For this reason, the statement is false, that they are separate and distinct Gods, at least according to the Bible.

Thus, the claim that there is more than one God is a huge departure from the Biblical text.

[ERayR]

Canadaigua, on 10 Dec 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

There is but only one God according to the Bible. The nature of that one God includes what we would describe as three distinct individuals or persons.

For this reason, the statement is false, that they are separate and distinct Gods, at least according to the Bible.

Thus, the claim that there is more than one God is a huge departure from the Biblical text.

 

In case you have forgotten your math three is definitely plural not singular.  So do you espouse modalism?

[danielwoods]

In case you have forgotten your math three is definitely plural not singular.  So do you espouse modalism?

I understand math. I also have learned that God is not us. He alone is the "I AM".

Do I espouse modalism? No. Three distinct persons form one God. How this can be, is a mystery. Similar to many mysteries of the LDS.

[ERayR]

I understand math. I also have learned that God is not us. He alone is the "I AM".

Do I espouse modalism? No. Three distinct persons form one God. How this can be, is a mystery. Similar to many mysteries of the LDS.

 

What you have misses is that we are his offspring.  "Ye are gods, even the sons of God."

 

No mystery for those who understand.

Edited December 11, 2014 by ERayR

[danielwoods]

What you have misses is that we are his offspring.  "Ye are gods, even the sons of God."

 

No mystery for those who understand.

There are two issues here.

One is the differences between our two positions. We aren't "missing" anything. Rather, we disagree that "further revelation" is what it claims. What we believe is what the biblical text teaches,

Jn. 5:44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

 

According to the Biblical text, there is but one true God. 

 

Which leads to the other issue. That of the mystery of his nature. I've heard many claim that there simply can't be a "trinity" as taught by Catholics/Protestant/ etc.. when at the same time, those same LDS believe in many mysteries that when pressed, claim they don't know the answer to, because supposedly God hasn't revealed it too them. So, I find it just a tad bit disingenuous to hold such a position, and yet at the same time attack what others honestly believe is true, but yet a mystery as well.

[ERayR]

There are two issues here.

One is the differences between our two positions. We aren't "missing" anything. Rather, we disagree that "further revelation" is what it claims. What we believe is what the biblical text teaches,

Jn. 5:44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

 

According to the Biblical text, there is but one true God. 

 

Which leads to the other issue. That of the mystery of his nature. I've heard many claim that there simply can't be a "trinity" as taught by Catholics/Protestant/ etc.. when at the same time, those same LDS believe in many mysteries that when pressed, claim they don't know the answer to, because supposedly God hasn't revealed it too them. So, I find it just a tad bit disingenuous to hold such a position, and yet at the same time attack what others honestly believe is true, but yet a mystery as well.

 

John 10:33-35

 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

[Calm]

"John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.""

If Jesus was sent by God, how can he be God?

[danielwoods]

John 10:33-35

 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 

This scripture has to be interpreted in light of the fact that there is only one true God. And as such, there are a couple of different ways to view it. 

 

 

"John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.""

If Jesus was sent by God, how can he be God?

 

Jesus was sent by God the father, yet both are the one true God because of God's infinite nature. 

 

"How" can this be? As I said before, it will always ultimately be called a mystery, because our understanding of an infinite being will always be viewed through our limited finite mind. 

[ERayR]

This scripture has to be interpreted in light of the fact that there is only one true God. And as such, there are a couple of different ways to view it. 

 

 

 

Jesus was sent by God the father, yet both are the one true God because of God's infinite nature. 

 

"How" can this be? As I said before, it will always ultimately be called a mystery, because our understanding of an infinite being will always be viewed through our limited finite mind. 

 

It is all in the interpretation isn't it. 

 

Yet to some it is given to know the mysteries.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

 

Mathew13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

[danielwoods]

It is all in the interpretation isn't it. 

 

Yet to some it is given to know the mysteries.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

 

Mathew13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 

 

The context of his statements above is different from what we are talking about. Jesus explained the meaning of his parables to his disciples, but not to the general public. Hence his statement above. 

 

When we are referencing God's nature, ultimately it ends in the unknown or mystery. For example, the LDS can't explain how a resurrected body is able to simply appear and disappear, or fly through the air? There are many things that are unknown. We often call them mysteries. And that's ok. 

 

The difference between our two positions are at a fundamental level. For example, the LDS believe that God the father also has a father, who also is a God of some sort. Correct? And that God the father progressed to be who he is now. Correct? 

 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This scripture has to be interpreted in light of the fact that there is only one true God. And as such, there are a couple of different ways to view it. 

 

 

 

Jesus was sent by God the father, yet both are the one true God because of God's infinite nature. 

 

"How" can this be? As I said before, it will always ultimately be called a mystery, because our understanding of an infinite being will always be viewed through our limited finite mind. 

This really doesn't really help. Why is green green? Because of it's infinite nature. Does that really help? No. It really says nothing that makes any sense.

 

I will give you your belief that it is a mystery. I can accept that.