Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Vance]

Ignore?

What I said last time:

danielwoods, on 05 Nov 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

Not sure it was Jewish custom or not, but they said to him, "34 ...Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out." (Jn.9:34)

Notice it doesn't say, "You sinned before you were born." Or it doesn't say, "You sinned in your preexistence." Rather it states that he was "born in sins." Which, in their opinion, resulted in his blindness.

My only point in quoting this verse is that the NT doesn't teach preexistence.

Again, preexistence isn't taught here either.

LOL!!!!

So, for your defense, you are quoting the Pharisee's,

1) (Who, Jesus called "HYPOCRITES!" many times, and

2) Who, just moments before, Jesus described as "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." See John 8:44)

said in accusation against the man who Jesus healed, to minimize the miraculous nature of the deed.

WOW!!!!

You are really going to win with that one.

LOL!!!!

 

So, YEAH! you are ignoring the real implication of that incident.

 

I have no church to defend. No sacred doctrine to defend. I only want the truth.

The way you dogmatically refuse to see the obvious clearly indicates otherwise.

If accepting our pre-mortal existence doesn't affect your doctrine WHY so ridiculously reject the possibility?

 

IF the LDS had the truth, I'd be LDS in a heartbeat.

So, when can we plan your baptism?

 

You however, are defending the LDS position, so everything has to be interpreted in light of that position.

And you are defending a strictly ANTI-Mormon position. And for no other reason than that it IS anti-Mormon. So everything you post has to be interpreted in light of that position. Edited November 11, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

How do you know it involves more than foreknowledge?

You mean, other than that is the plan and simple implication?

 

The text states

 

4 "The word of the Lord came to me, saying,

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

before you were born I set you apart;

I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”"

Notice that every action word in this verse is God doing the action.

So?

Did God do all of this "doing the action" to Jeremiah without the approval of Jeremiah?

Did God impose upon Jeremiah's free will/agency?

So, again, you throw our agency under your purely anti-LDS bus.

 

God knew, set him apart, and appointed him. Jeremiah does nothing in this exchange.

See above.

 

It's all God, Jeremiah for all practical purposes doesn't even have to be present.

Right. God forced this all upon Jeremiah without Jeremiah approval or presence.

LOL!

 

And if you study predestination at all, you can see how God does this with all of us.

Again, you throw "free will" under the bus.

 

You claim it involves more than foreknowledge, where do you see that?

You claim it involves ONLY foreknowledge, where do you see that? Edited November 11, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!           [No, man doesn't know]

So, you are going with God lied to Jeremiah?

WOW!!!

See where your anti-LDS silliness has led you?

[Flyonthewall]

How do you know it involves more than foreknowledge? The text states

 

4 "The word of the Lord came to me, saying,

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

before you were born I set you apart;

I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”"

Notice that every action word in this verse is God doing the action. God knew, set him apart, and appointed him. Jeremiah does nothing in this exchange. It's all God, Jeremiah for all practical purposes doesn't even have to be present. And if you study predestination at all, you can see how God does this with all of us. You claim it involves more than foreknowledge, where do you see that?

Because there was an action that was done to Jerehiah. You cannot perform an action on something that does not exist.

[danielwoods]

LOL!!!!

So, for your defense, you are quoting the Pharisee's,

1) (Who, Jesus called "HYPOCRITES!" many times, and

2) Who, just moments before, Jesus described as "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." See John 8:44)

said in accusation against the man who Jesus healed, to minimize the miraculous nature of the deed.

WOW!!!!

You are really going to win with that one.

LOL!!!!

 

So, YEAH! you are ignoring the real implication of that incident.

Actually just looking at the historical/cultural context. There's no indication that they thought he sinned before he was born, rather that he was born in sin, as the text plainly states.

 

The way you dogmatically refuse to see the obvious clearly indicates otherwise.

If accepting our pre-mortal existence doesn't affect your doctrine WHY so ridiculously reject the possibility?

Simply defending what the text states. I have stated that the doctrine is irrelevant, because it actually has no effect on anyone. If it does anything it puffs up those who think they know more about something when they actually don't.

 

So, when can we plan your baptism?

 

And you are defending a strictly ANTI-Mormon position. And for no other reason than that it IS anti-Mormon. So everything you post has to be interpreted in light of that position.

I've already been baptized, thanks.

I'm not anti- anyone, I don't wish ill against anyone. I really wish that these things were true, but as I study them, I find they are not.

[Flyonthewall]

The answer to God's rhetorical questions is no. 

 

Here's a greater look at the context:

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?          [You weren't there]

Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!           [No, man doesn't know]

Who stretched a measuring line across it?                          [Not Man, only God]

6 On what were its footings set,

or who laid its cornerstone—

7 while the morning stars sang together

and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors

when it burst forth from the womb,

9 when I made the clouds its garment

and wrapped it in thick darkness,

10 when I fixed limits for it

and set its doors and bars in place,

11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;

here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,                     [Nope, only God]

or shown the dawn its place,

13 that it might take the earth by the edges

and shake the wicked out of it?

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;

its features stand out like those of a garment.

15 The wicked are denied their light,

and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea                 [Nope, only God]

or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?

Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?             [Nope, only God]

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?

Tell me, if you know all this.                                                [Nope, only God]

There is no indication here that Job was being reminded that he was with the Angels or even present or even alive. The rhetorical implication is that he wasn't there.

The greater context is an answer to Job as to why righteous people can suffer while wicked prosper.

God is reminding him of the reason why - the plan of salvation. He is also telling him not to listen to those that hold him in derision, but continue trusting God because God is mighty in works and knowledge.

You do not see the pre-mortal implications because you have been told we did not exist before birth, and to see the implications would mean surrendering your pre-conceived beliefs.

Even though you state you do not have a doctrine to defend, you cling to your doctrines desperately and dismiss anything that does not agree with it. You select biblical translations that have a definite evangelical bias and hold those up as support of your interpretation - of course they will because that is the very purpose of those translations.

[danielwoods]

You mean, other than that is the plan and simple implication?

 

So?

Did God do all of this "doing the action" to Jeremiah without the approval of Jeremiah?

Did God impose upon Jeremiah's free will/agency?

So, again, you throw our agency under your purely anti-LDS bus.

 

See above.

 

Right. God forced this all upon Jeremiah without Jeremiah approval or presence.

LOL!

 

Again, you throw "free will" under the bus.

 

You claim it involves ONLY foreknowledge, where do you see that?

Because that's what the text states. It doesn't state that Jeremiah was preexistent.

[danielwoods]

Because there was an action that was done to Jerehiah. You cannot perform an action on something that does not exist.

Again, how do you know this? The text doesn't state that. Where do you get it from?

For example. If you have kids, you have performed an action on them that doesn't exist. You decided where they will be born/grow up among other things, simply by your choices before they are born.

[Flyonthewall]

Because that's what the text states. It doesn't state that Jeremiah was preexistent.

The biblical text also never states that Jesus or the Apostles used the bathroom. What conclusion can be made from that?

Would there be a need to mention it?

[danielwoods]

The greater context is an answer to Job as to why righteous people can suffer while wicked prosper.

God is reminding him of the reason why - the plan of salvation. He is also telling him not to listen to those that hold him in derision, but continue trusting God because God is mighty in works and knowledge.

You do not see the pre-mortal implications because you have been told we did not exist before birth, and to see the implications would mean surrendering your pre-conceived beliefs.

Even though you state you do not have a doctrine to defend, you cling to your doctrines desperately and dismiss anything that does not agree with it. You select biblical translations that have a definite evangelical bias and hold those up as support of your interpretation - of course they will because that is the very purpose of those translations.

Yet, in order for your interpretation to be true, you have to answer "yes" to each one of these rhetorical questions from God to Job. When the obvious answer is "no" to each one.

I'm sorry I have no desire to read scripture for anything other than it plainly teaches.

[danielwoods]

The biblical text also never states that Jesus or the Apostles used the bathroom. What conclusion can be made from that?

Would there be a need to mention it?

 

When building a doctrine (in this case the doctrine of man) does one build it on what isn't there? 

[ERayR]

Because that's what the text states. It doesn't state that Jeremiah was preexistent.

 

Read it again.  That is exactly what it says.

[Flyonthewall]

Again, how do you know this? The text doesn't state that. Where do you get it from?

For example. If you have kids, you have performed an action on them that doesn't exist. You decided where they will be born/grow up among other things, simply by your choices before they are born.

You keep relying on what the text says or doesn't say, yet you add in a lot that the text does not say either.

The text does not say we did not have a pre-mortal existence. Even the passages you use as proof, do not say that we did not exist. Nowhere in the bible does it say "we did not have a pre-mortal existence".

There are a number of scriptures that tell of beings, that existed before the creation of the world. You assume they are not us because... well I don't know why. You will need to figure that out.

[Flyonthewall]

When building a doctrine (in this case the doctrine of man) does one build it on what isn't there?

Let's take a look at what is there then:

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah was sanctified and ordained a prophet before he was born.

You say it is God's foreknowledge. The scripture does not say "I knew I would sanctify you" or "I knew I would ordain you a prophet". It says God took action on Jeremiah before he was born, which means Jeremiah had to exist. This is not the same as your example of deciding where a child is born... this is direct action on an individual.

See, You are reading something into the scripture that is not there. In fact, a pre-mortal existence is referred to directly, and you do somersaults in your efforts to make it mean the opposite of what it says.

So stop the pre-tense of seeking the truth and only relying on what the text says. There are a number of different scriptural passages that you do this to - saying the words mean the opposite of what they say.

As long as you say "black means white" and "up means down", you will never find the truth you say you seek.

If you want context, couple Jeremiah 1 with Jeremiah 38.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Flyonthewall

[danielwoods]

Let's take a look at what is there then:

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah was sanctified and ordained a prophet before he was born.

You say it is God's foreknowledge. The scripture does not say "I knew I would sanctify you" or "I knew I would ordain you a prophet". It says God took action on Jeremiah before he was born, which means Jeremiah had to exist. This is not the same as your example of deciding where a child is born... this is direct action on an individual.

See, You are reading something into the scripture that is not there. In fact, a pre-mortal existence is referred to directly, and you do somersaults in your efforts to make it mean the opposite of what it says.

So stop the pre-tense of seeking the truth and only relying on what the text says. There are a number of different scriptural passages that you do this to - saying the words mean the opposite of what they say.

As long as you say "black means white" and "up means down", you will never find the truth you say you seek.

If you want context, couple Jeremiah 1 with Jeremiah 38.

I do appreciate your detailed response. It's much better than, "just read it again..."

Let's look at. I'll just use your version.

"5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"

This is the only phrase that references Jeremiah before he existed, and all it states is that God knew him. But knew him how? The LDS contention is that we pre-existed. So, I'm going to assume that would mean we had relationships with other people and God before we lived here. But, to what point? The point in this passage is God is establishing his sovereignty. God knows all, past present and future at the same time. He not only knew Jeremiah, he knows everyone. But, his point here isn't that Jeremiah had a pre-existance because Jeremiah doesn't exist yet, and there is no reference to Jeremiah knowing God, but that God knew him, even before he was born which makes the point that only God could do something like that. God has foreknowledge. As it states elsewhere, "Those he foreknew, he also predestined."

If Jeremiah had pre-existed, then it wouldn't be that remarkable of a statement to say that God knew him. 

"and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Now, here Jeremiah is in the womb still. He's alive and growing, so clearly not a reference to pre-existence, because he already exists. And God is making the same type of statement of sovereignty, that he knows all and knows before he came out of the womb that he was sanctified and ordained.

Again, the statement only displays God's sovereignty because of how remarkable the claim is. 

 

So, is pre-existence referred to directly in this passage? The LDS say yes. I would say no, and only verse 5 has anything close to a possible reference. The reason I would say no is because, it's not a reference to Jeremiah's existence or life (or doing anything) before he was on earth, but rather only a reference to God's knowledge in a statement designed to display his sovereignty. 

[Flyonthewall]

I do appreciate your detailed response. It's much better than, "just read it again..."

Let's look at. I'll just use your version.

"5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"

This is the only phrase that references Jeremiah before he existed, and all it states is that God knew him. But knew him how? The LDS contention is that we pre-existed. So, I'm going to assume that would mean we had relationships with other people and God before we lived here. But, to what point? The point in this passage is God is establishing his sovereignty. God knows all, past present and future at the same time. He not only knew Jeremiah, he knows everyone. But, his point here isn't that Jeremiah had a pre-existance because Jeremiah doesn't exist yet, and there is no reference to Jeremiah knowing God, but that God knew him, even before he was born which makes the point that only God could do something like that. God has foreknowledge. As it states elsewhere, "Those he foreknew, he also predestined."

If Jeremiah had pre-existed, then it wouldn't be that remarkable of a statement to say that God knew him. 

"and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Now, here Jeremiah is in the womb still. He's alive and growing, so clearly not a reference to pre-existence, because he already exists. And God is making the same type of statement of sovereignty, that he knows all and knows before he came out of the womb that he was sanctified and ordained.

Again, the statement only displays God's sovereignty because of how remarkable the claim is. 

 

So, is pre-existence referred to directly in this passage? The LDS say yes. I would say no, and only verse 5 has anything close to a possible reference. The reason I would say no is because, it's not a reference to Jeremiah's existence or life (or doing anything) before he was on earth, but rather only a reference to God's knowledge in a statement designed to display his sovereignty.

Your position rests solely on whether the phrase "before thou camest out of the womb" means while still in the womb.

The Lord starts out with "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee". You say it is foreknowledge, but again that is trying to know someone that does not exist. Can't be done.

If it does, then we do not have free agency/will because God created the person with a specific function built in.

"Before thou camest out of the womb" is another way of saying "before you were born". There is a lot more time before one is born that is not time spent in the womb.

How do you explain all the references to beings that existed before the world was created - Sons of God, hosts of heaven, morning stars, etc.? Sons of God are a direct reference to us as God the Father is the Father of our spirits.

[Vance]

Actually just looking at the historical/cultural context. There's no indication that they thought he sinned before he was born, rather that he was born in sin, as the text plainly states.

Still going to stand on the false accusations of the Pharisees, hum.

Simply defending what the text states. I have stated that the doctrine is irrelevant, because it actually has no effect on anyone. If it does anything it puffs up those who think they know more about something when they actually don't.

Nah, just continuing to inject things that aren't there.

 

I've already been baptized, thanks.

Yeah, but not a real one done by real authorized servants of the Lord.

I'm not anti- anyone, I don't wish ill against anyone.

Your actions show otherwise.

[Vance]

Because that's what the text states. It doesn't state that Jeremiah was preexistent.

Yes, it does. That is the plain and clear implication.

We just simply take the text at face value. You have to explain it away.

[Vance]

Yet, in order for your interpretation to be true, you have to answer "yes" to each one of these rhetorical questions from God to Job.

Thus demonstrating the consistency of our interpretation.

When the obvious answer is "no" to each one.

Ah, but it isn't.

I'm sorry I have no desire to read scripture for anything other than it plainly teaches.

Obviously not.

[Vance]

When building a doctrine (in this case the doctrine of man) does one build it on what isn't there?

Ask Martin Luther, John Calvin and the members of the Nicene council.

You keep missing that fact that we get our doctrine from the same source Paul got his, ie revelation.

[Vance]

I do appreciate your detailed response. It's much better than, "just read it again..."

Let's look at. I'll just use your version.

"5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"

This is the only phrase that references Jeremiah before he existed, and all it states is that God knew him.

And the plain and simple meaning is that Jeremiah was there before he was formed in the belly and that God knew him.

But knew him how?

The plain and simple meaning is that it is in the same sense that anyone can know anyone else. They BOTH have to be there. To take it any other way is to add to the text something that isn't there.

The LDS contention is that we pre-existed. So, I'm going to assume that would mean we had relationships with other people and God before we lived here.

All true.

The point in this passage is God is establishing his sovereignty.

Which God establishes by reminding Jeremiah that he was there when God did all those things.

God knows all, past present and future at the same time. He not only knew Jeremiah, he knows everyone.

True, but irrelevant.

But, his point here isn't that Jeremiah had a pre-existance because Jeremiah doesn't exist yet, and there is no reference to Jeremiah knowing God, but that God knew him, even before he was born which makes the point that only God could do something like that. God has foreknowledge. As it states elsewhere, "Those he foreknew, he also predestined."

WOW!!!

You really have to twist it like a pretzel to get there don't you!

If Jeremiah had pre-existed, then it wouldn't be that remarkable of a statement to say that God knew him.

Really?

So, if God came to you and told you that He knew you before you were formed in the womb, you would not feel remarkable? Or it would not be remarkable?

Really?

"and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Now, here Jeremiah is in the womb still.

Now, again, you are ADDING something that isn't there. It doesn't say he was in the womb. It says BEFORE (you were born) which could just as easily a thousand years before as it could be one minute.

He's alive and growing,

The text doesn't say that! You are injecting something that is NOT there.

. . . so clearly not a reference to pre-existence,

A faulty conclusion based upon injected material.

Just the EXACT thing you claim not to do.

WOW!!!

. . . because he already exists.

Yup. He did exist in spirit and was known by God BEFORE he was formed in the womb.

THAT is what the text is saying.

So, is pre-existence referred to directly in this passage? The LDS say yes. I would say no,

And to get there you have to inject something that is not there.

[danielwoods]

Your position rests solely on whether the phrase "before thou camest out of the womb" means while still in the womb.

The Lord starts out with "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee". You say it is foreknowledge, but again that is trying to know someone that does not exist. Can't be done.

If it does, then we do not have free agency/will because God created the person with a specific function built in.

My position rests on the fact that pre-existence isn't taught anywhere in the Bible. This passage certainly doesn't teach it. If one squints and views it through LDS glasses, then maybe verse 5 references it. No instruction though.

Your statement that foreknowledge of people "can't be done" is not what scripture teaches. And further the idea that foreknowledge equals determinism is also a false statement. I can know any number of things that will happen, none of which I have any control over.

 

"Before thou camest out of the womb" is another way of saying "before you were born". There is a lot more time before one is born that is not time spent in the womb.

How do you explain all the references to beings that existed before the world was created - Sons of God, hosts of heaven, morning stars, etc.? Sons of God are a direct reference to us as God the Father is the Father of our spirits.

Sons of God, Morning stars, Hosts of Heaven are all references to different types angelic beings that existed before the Earth was created.

[danielwoods]

So, if God came to you and told you that He knew you before you were formed in the womb, you would not feel remarkable? Or it would not be remarkable?

Really?

You are making my point for me.

You are claiming that pre-existence is taught and understood by all the readers by what is said in this passage. Yet, the whole reason it's mentioned is because it isn't taught. The whole impact of the statement "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" is because no one can do that, only God. If it was common place, it wouldn't have the same impact. Your reaction proves my point.

The implication of "before I formed thee", is that he was "unformed" or not yet formed, or not yet made or not yet existed. The implication isn't that Jeremiah existed at all, because knowing someone who already exists is easy, anyone can do that. God's statement is remarkable because of it's impossibility for humans to duplicate.

[Vance]

My position rests on the fact that pre-existence isn't taught anywhere in the Bible. This passage certainly doesn't teach it.

It does when what is written is take at face value.

Your statement that foreknowledge of people "can't be done" is not what scripture teaches.

You have to really twist the clear and plain meaning of the words to not understand that to know someone both you and them have to exist at the same time.

Clearly, for God to know us BEFORE we were conceived, we had to exist BEFORE we were conceived.

Plain and simple. Anything else is a contortion of the written word.

And further the idea that foreknowledge equals determinism is also a false statement.

ONLY if we existed before, else your logic is faulty.

I can know any number of things that will happen, none of which I have any control over.

You can't know what one of your children will do in a particular situation before that child was conceived.

Sons of God, Morning stars, Hosts of Heaven are all references to different types angelic beings that existed before the Earth was created.

And, as has been demonstrated here several times, humans are angels.

Before God placed Adam's spirit into his physical body, all of the host of heaven and earth were created, see Gen 2:1

[Vance]

You are making my point for me.

You are claiming that pre-existence is taught and understood by all the readers by what is said in this passage. Yet, the whole reason it's mentioned is because it isn't taught. The whole impact of the statement "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" is because no one can do that, only God. If it was common place, it wouldn't have the same impact. Your reaction proves my point.

Oh, so if God said to you personally that He knew you before you were conceived, "it wouldn't have the same impact" on you.

Oh, please.

The implication of "before I formed thee", is that he was "unformed" or not yet formed, or not yet made or not yet existed.

There you go again, slyly slipping in something that isn't there.

The implication isn't that Jeremiah existed at all, because knowing someone who already exists is easy, anyone can do that.

Correct, THAT is why that is the plain and simple meaning.

You have to contort and twist what is clearly and plainly stated to ignore the plain and simple meaning.

God's statement is remarkable because of it's impossibility for humans to duplicate.

We get to know people all the time. We do it be interacting with them. God is using this plain and simple understanding to teach Jeremiah (and the rest of us) that he existed before he was conceived.