Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Silhouette]

I've heard lots of stories of past lives. I don't believe a one of them. Sorry. It's not taught in the NT.

The fact that we don't recall our preexistence is evidence that we didn't preexist like Christ did.

No one is saying we had a past life. What we did have was a pre-existence as spirits. We didn't have a "life" until we were sent here to Earth. At that time the veil was placed over our memory of our pre-existence so that we could exercise the gift of free agency and learn to have faith.

The fact that we don't remember our pre-existence is not evidence that it didn't happen. I doubt if you remember the details of your birth, but that sure doesn't mean it didn't happen, since clearly, you are here.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I know we did pre-exist because Christ did, and He set the pattern for all of us to follow.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Silhouette

[cdowis]

By the way, your comment about not understanding the Bible unless there were philosophers and theologians teaching it seems rather condescending,

 

 May I suggest that you become familiar with the rhetorical device "irony".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

 

if the "you" in it was directed specifically at me. I'm hoping you meant the comment in a general sense to include everybody...

 

"You" is used in the editorial sense.

Edited November 8, 2014 by cdowis

[Silhouette]

By the way, your comment about not understanding the Bible unless there were philosophers and theologians teaching it seems rather condescending,

May I suggest that you become familiar with the rhetorical device "irony". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

if the "you" in it was directed specifically at me. I'm hoping you meant the comment in a general sense to include everybody...

"You" is used in the editorial sense.

Sorry, perhaps I am dim, but I don't see the connection. But I gather that the "you" in your prior post was not directed solely at me, and I appreciate that. Edited November 9, 2014 by Silhouette

[danielwoods]

No one is saying we had a past life. What we did have was a pre-existence as spirits. We didn't have a "life" until we were sent here to Earth. At that time the veil was placed over our memory of our pre-existence so that we could exercise the gift of free agency and learn to have faith.

The fact that we don't remember our pre-existence is not evidence that it didn't happen. I doubt if you remember the details of your birth, but that sure doesn't mean it didn't happen, since clearly, you are here.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I know we did pre-exist because Christ did, and He set the pattern for all of us to follow.

 

The claims of many people (of past lives or pre-existence or what ever you want to call it) is first and foremost the opposite of what is taught in the Bible (as I have pointed out with the numerous verses mentioned). Second, there's no way to verify or not these claims, so that makes them largely irrelevant. 

 

It's very similar to how truth is verified in the LDS teachings. One is to have a "witness" about things. The problem is when someone has the opposite "witness" to what is supposed to be revealed truth, a witness that the supposed truth claims are actually false. 

 

So, while I don't share your belief, I don't think you are any less a Christian or person for holding them. 

[Silhouette]

The claims of many people (of past lives or pre-existence or what ever you want to call it) is first and foremost the opposite of what is taught in the Bible (as I have pointed out with the numerous verses mentioned). Second, there's no way to verify or not these claims, so that makes them largely irrelevant.

It's very similar to how truth is verified in the LDS teachings. One is to have a "witness" about things. The problem is when someone has the opposite "witness" to what is supposed to be revealed truth, a witness that the supposed truth claims are actually false.

So, while I don't share your belief, I don't think you are any less a Christian or person for holding them.

I appreciate that, and I admire your devotion to your own beliefs. So let us "agree to disagree", as the saying goes. I look forward to seeing more of your posts on these forums. ✌️

Best Regards,

Melanie

[Silhouette]

Deleted. DUH-ble post.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Silhouette

[SearchingfortheTruth]

Newbie here, but I think that if you define a Christian as a follower of Jesus' Biblical teachings, then the LDS faith is not Christian. A 'Mormon' can become a Christian by not believing in the core tenets of LDS faith and placing his/her faith only in Christ.

[Calm]

You would only be right if you made that certain interpretations of Christ's teachings. LDS are as certain as everyone else is that our interpretations of what God's teachings are in the Bible are God's actual Words to man or as close as man has been able to come to it...which is why we need revelation to continue....God keeps talking to us and we need to keep listening and not assume that just one book, thick as it is, is all that God has to say to us.

We prefer to place our faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and all that they have shared with us, not just that which was shared with a small group in one part of the world as significant and important as it was...but all of God's words are important and it is sad that some refuse to hear him because they only accept a small potion of them written in one book.

Edited November 10, 2014 by calmoriah

[Anakin7]

       Searchingforthe Truth my Kandorian LDS critic read - http://www.lightplanet.com/response/offenders/NT-define.html

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

[cdowis]

Newbie here, but I think that if you define a Christian as a follower of Jesus' Biblical teachings, then the LDS faith is not Christian. A 'Mormon' can become a Christian by not believing in the core tenets of LDS faith and placing his/her faith only in Christ.

 

May I suggest that when you reject the messenger, you reject the One who sent him. 

 

For example, you would become Christian if you would reject the tenants of Paul, and by placing your faith only in Christ.  Peter himself suggested this in 2 Peter 3:16.  

 

Tear his writings from the Bible and believe in "Christ only".  Get a red letter edition of the Bible as the guide to "Christ only".  Turn your back on anyone but Christ.

+++++++++++++++=

 

Now, we believe that we must accept all of of the words of the Lord, including the Bible and modern revelation. The prophets are Christ's messengers and to reject His prophets is rejecting Christ.  

Edited November 10, 2014 by cdowis

[Vance]

He who is from above is in the singular form. Meaning one.

Nah, it doesn't mean one.

He who is from Chicago knows what Chicago Pizza really is.

Does that mean that there can only be one person?

Nah, it doesn't mean one.

[Vance]

Notice the whole verse all humanity is related to Adam, he became a living being (no preexistence is mentioned), and is from the Earth, just as we all are.

Neither does it mention that there was no preexistence for the spirit.

Why did God have to place the spirit into the body if it was not preexistent? Why not just create the spirit and the body together?

Answer, the spirit already existed.

So we bear his image, and juxtapose that to the image will we bear in the future (implication is we never had this before).

Referring to the nature of our physical bodies.

Sorry, no preexistence is taught in the NT.

Sorry, no lack of preexistence is taught in the NT.

[Vance]

. . . only Christ was because he was/is infinite God, and we are not.

Faulty conclusion based upon faulty logic.

[cdowis]

"He who  ...." is using the indefinite pronoun ==> another translation could be "whoever..."

 

But that is a technicality.   I think, in context, Christ is clearly referring to himself, contrasting himself from those who are from below.

Edited November 10, 2014 by cdowis

[Vance]

Notice also it states, "He testifies to what he has seen and heard..." Yet for some reason in the LDS version of our preexistence, we have no memories of it... curious huh?

1) Why would our physical brain remember something that it did not experience?

2) How could we demonstrate faith in God, if we remembered being with Him?

By denying the preexistent state of the spirit you are denying that God has given us agency (the ability to choose). In this respect, at least, you are being consistent with the concept of Ex Nihilo creation. For if God created us "ex nihilo" then it is impossible for us to have our own will.

So, again, lest you missed it. Without the preexistence of the spirit we are deprived of our ability to choose. For we would have had no opportunity to choose to have this mortal experience or not. God would have deprived us of our ability to choose, thus making Him, alone responsible for all of the evil.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Vance

[ERayR]

The claims of many people (of past lives or pre-existence or what ever you want to call it) is first and foremost the opposite of what is taught in the Bible (as I have pointed out with the numerous verses mentioned). Second, there's no way to verify or not these claims, so that makes them largely irrelevant. 

 

It's very similar to how truth is verified in the LDS teachings. One is to have a "witness" about things. The problem is when someone has the opposite "witness" to what is supposed to be revealed truth, a witness that the supposed truth claims are actually false. 

 

So, while I don't share your belief, I don't think you are any less a Christian or person for holding them. 

 

There have been biblical reference given that speak of a pre-mortal existence.  You have chosen to reject them as what they are.  Your rejection however does not negate them.

 

"Past lives" are in no way synonymous with pre-mortal existence.  This may be why you are having trouble with the concept of  pre-mortal existence.

[ERayR]

Newbie here, but I think that if you define a Christian as a follower of Jesus' Biblical teachings, then the LDS faith is not Christian. A 'Mormon' can become a Christian by not believing in the core tenets of LDS faith and placing his/her faith only in Christ.

 

It is obvious that you have a very distorted understanding of the LDS faith.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Newbie here, but I think that if you define a Christian as a follower of Jesus' Biblical teachings, then the LDS faith is not Christian. A 'Mormon' can become a Christian by not believing in the core tenets of LDS faith and placing his/her faith only in Christ.

And just who is the Biblical Jesus? The one were you add a whole bunch of stuff that is not even in the bible?

 

One substance?

100% God and 100% man?

A totally illogical being that is the trinity?

2 can play this game.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

.... because he was/is infinite God, and we are not.

 

So at some point those that are saved will cease to exist? Is that really your argument that we are not infinite? And the bible does call us divine just as God is divine.

[danielwoods]

Nah, it doesn't mean one.

He who is from Chicago knows what Chicago Pizza really is.

Does that mean that there can only be one person?

Nah, it doesn't mean one.

 

Black actually equals white? 

 

Neither does it mention that there was no preexistence for the spirit.

Why did God have to place the spirit into the body if it was not preexistent? Why not just create the spirit and the body together?

Answer, the spirit already existed.

Referring to the nature of our physical bodies.

Sorry, no lack of preexistence is taught in the NT.

 

It states that "Adam became a living being…" 

 

God breathed life into him, in essence it all happened at once. Before that moment, he didn't exist. He didn't have life as a spirit or anything. 

 

The only way to interpret it as a preexistent spirit is to read into the text what isn't there. 

 

1) Why would our physical brain remember something that it did not experience?

You must have missed the quote. Jesus seemed to be able to recall his preexistence, as it says he did what he saw the father doing.

Fact is, if we existed previously, it seems logical that we'd remember it. The fact that most people don't, is evidence it didn't happen as the LDS teach.

 

2) How could we demonstrate faith in God, if we remembered being with Him?

Then Jesus didn't demonstrate faith in God?

 

By denying the preexistent state of the spirit you are denying that God has given us agency (the ability to choose). In this respect, at least, you are being consistent with the concept of Ex Nihilo creation. For if God created us "ex nihilo" then it is impossible for us to have our own will.

So, again, lest you missed it. Without the preexistence of the spirit we are deprived of our ability to choose. For we would have had no opportunity to choose to have this mortal experience or not. God would have deprived us of our ability to choose, thus making Him, alone responsible for all of the evil.

Setting up such a false dichotomy only displays your ignorance of what we actually believe.

I believe that God is able to create a free moral willed being.

I believe that only God is Eternal, and that we are not. We were created at one point, for the purpose of sharing in the love that God (Godhead) already had in Eternity.

[danielwoods]

"He who  ...." is using the indefinite pronoun ==> another translation could be "whoever..."

 

But that is a technicality.   I think, in context, Christ is clearly referring to himself, contrasting himself from those who are from below.

 

Agreed. 

[danielwoods]

There have been biblical reference given that speak of a pre-mortal existence.  You have chosen to reject them as what they are.  Your rejection however does not negate them.

 

"Past lives" are in no way synonymous with pre-mortal existence.  This may be why you are having trouble with the concept of  pre-mortal existence.

 

The opposite of living is death. So, while I may call it different than what the LDS teaches, it comes out the same, it's still a past life of some sort. Which is largely irrelevant anyway because it has no bearing on anything. 

 

The biblical references have been talked about. The LDS interpretation is not supported by the context of the whole NT or Bible. 

[danielwoods]

So at some point those that are saved will cease to exist? Is that really your argument that we are not infinite? And the bible does call us divine just as God is divine.

 

Not sure where you are getting the "saved will cease to exist" thing. Please explain. 

 

My argument that we are not Infinite, is simply that. We are not the creator of the Universe, we aren't present everywhere at the same time. The word "infinite" probably isn't used in the Bible, but it encompasses the concept of an all powerful, all knowing, ever present God, which is how he's described. 

 

The bible never calls us these things though. We are never all powerful, or all knowing, or ever present. 

[ERayR]

The opposite of living is death. So, while I may call it different than what the LDS teaches, it comes out the same, it's still a past life of some sort. Which is largely irrelevant anyway because it has no bearing on anything. 

 

The biblical references have been talked about. The LDS interpretation is not supported by the context of the whole NT or Bible. 

 

So that I can understand., Please provide an example of a past life.

 

The biblical references have been talked about. The LDS Your interpretation is not supported by the context of the whole NT or Bible.

There I fixed it for you.

Edited November 10, 2014 by ERayR

[Vance]

Black actually equals white?

LOL!!!

 

God breathed life into him, in essence it all happened at once.

Talk about adding something that isn't there.

Before that moment, he didn't exist.

Talk about adding something that isn't there.

He didn't have life as a spirit or anything.

Talk about adding something that isn't there.

 

The only way to interpret it as a preexistent spirit is to read into the text what isn't there.

Nope. The only way to interpret it as no preexistent spirit is to read into the text what isn't there.

 

You must have missed the quote. Jesus seemed to be able to recall his preexistence, as it says he did what he saw the father doing.

Again, reading something into it that isn't there. It doesn't require a "recall", it could just as easily (and likely) have been a revelation.

Fact is, if we existed previously, it seems logical that we'd remember it.

Why? The brain was not there.

The fact that most people don't, is evidence it didn't happen as the LDS teach.

Lack of evidence is not proof of absence.

Then Jesus didn't demonstrate faith in God?

He did. But as shown above, you are presuming that isn't there.

Setting up such a false dichotomy only displays your ignorance of what we actually believe.

It is not a false dichotomy.

I believe that God is able to create a free moral willed being.

Me too. That is why I have to reject "creatio ex nihilo".

I believe that only God is Eternal, and that we are not.

Ok, so.

We were created at one point, . . .

In spite of having no evidence.