Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Tacenda]

"They keep telling themselves they are sinners, not us usually"

Do you mean we don't focus on the fact we sin? If so, please explain how we are taught to pray for forgiveness daily, exercise repentance, each week we take the sacrament...not to show that we were good at keeping the commandments but because we recognize we need Christ's redemption in our lives constantly.

We don't focus on the negative side of existence, instead we focus on how Christ changes us, we believe Christ can change us, we believe in his forgiveness. While I have respect for many Evangelicals, I find the obsession some have with insisting they are worthless an insult to the Creator and the constant refrain of being a sinner even after seeking out redemption an insult to the changing power of the Atonement. Thankfully in my experience I've only encountered a few who hold this version of EV teachings. I do not know how widespread it is.

Maybe I've been listening to the wrong EV's and LDS! I'm thinking narrowly, thanks for keeping me humble Cal.

[danielwoods]

SR, maybe the EV's (some) need Christ more then those that try to be perfect. They keep telling themselves they are sinners, not us usually. They seem to really emphasize it and show they need Christ more. But what do I know!?!?

There's a large difference between those who "try to be perfect" and those who know we can't ever be perfect, so trying is a waste of time. Rather, letting Christ change our lives from the inside out first, instead of attempting to "try" to change ourselves, which only leads to frustration.

Edited November 2, 2014 by danielwoods

[Flyonthewall]

There's a large difference between those who "try to be perfect" and those who know we can't ever be perfect, so trying is a waste of time. Rather, letting Christ change our lives from the inside out first, instead of attempting to "try" to change ourselves, which only leads to frustration.

Matthew 5:48. Jesus told us to waste our time in the Sermon on the Mount. He summed up the Sermon on the Mount with:

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So much for not trying and waiting for someone else to do it for you.

[Storm Rider]

There's a large difference between those who "try to be perfect" and those who know we can't ever be perfect, so trying is a waste of time. Rather, letting Christ change our lives from the inside out first, instead of attempting to "try" to change ourselves, which only leads to frustration.

 

Daniel, I see discipleship as a union of the individual with Christ - it is that process of alignment with him and his will for us that takes effort.  A disciple does not attempt to be perfect without Christ - that is frustration, but an understanding that we are imperfect and through Christ forgiven for the number of times we fail.  What I see as critical is the condition of one's heart - does one seek to be perfect through Christ?  If so, our heart is pure and he is constantly at work with us.  

 

Conversely, those that admit their frailty and then never try to follow Christ's teachings are those who have no oil in their lamps at the time the Bridegroom comes.  

[danielwoods]

Matthew 5:48. Jesus told us to waste our time in the Sermon on the Mount. He summed up the Sermon on the Mount with:

So much for not trying and waiting for someone else to do it for you.

Emphasizing those things we do, while ignoring the work that God does, which results in those works, doesn't negate what is actually going on. We don't change ourselves. We don't save ourselves. It's God who works in us. We simply let him. 

 

 

Daniel, I see discipleship as a union of the individual with Christ - it is that process of alignment with him and his will for us that takes effort.  A disciple does not attempt to be perfect without Christ - that is frustration, but an understanding that we are imperfect and through Christ forgiven for the number of times we fail.  What I see as critical is the condition of one's heart - does one seek to be perfect through Christ?  If so, our heart is pure and he is constantly at work with us.  

 

Conversely, those that admit their frailty and then never try to follow Christ's teachings are those who have no oil in their lamps at the time the Bridegroom comes.

Does one to seek to be perfect through Christ, or does one seek Christ first and as a result all these things happen.

You mention the bridegroom. Consider a young couple in love. They don't think about all the "dos and don'ts", they aren't constantly reminding themselves to do loving things for each other. Rather, the love inside their hearts compels them to do loving things. How does this happen? Do they "try" and make it happen?

The love inside comes first. It changes them from the inside out. They can't contain it, and feel driven to show or do things that demonstrate their love for each other. This is exactly how it is for believers in Christ. It's not our "doing" things that saves us, or changes us. Rather, it's his love inside us that changes us, and compels us to do good works. Out of the heart comes what's inside.

[Storm Rider]

Does one to seek to be perfect through Christ, or does one seek Christ first and as a result all these things happen.

You mention the bridegroom. Consider a young couple in love. They don't think about all the "dos and don'ts", they aren't constantly reminding themselves to do loving things for each other. Rather, the love inside their hearts compels them to do loving things. How does this happen? Do they "try" and make it happen?

The love inside comes first. It changes them from the inside out. They can't contain it, and feel driven to show or do things that demonstrate their love for each other. This is exactly how it is for believers in Christ. It's not our "doing" things that saves us, or changes us. Rather, it's his love inside us that changes us, and compels us to do good works. Out of the heart comes what's inside.

 

Daniel, I see no evidence that Christianity has changed the world or filled it with love.  Am I missing something?  What you are teaching is that if you seek Christ first then everything will magically change.  Our objective is to bring people to Christ and then engage them on a road to discipleship - if you love Christ follow his teachings.  

 

I do think we have something in common - when we are engaged in holy activities; reading scriptures, sincere prayer, or going to the temple, I find that we yearn for righteousness. Righteous activity opens the door further to Christ and our actions reflect his presence in our lives.  This may be similar to your position.  

 

Semantics can be a problem here and we may be talking past one another.  As I young man I heard there were three kinds of people:  those who make things happen, those who watch for something to happen, and those who ask "what happened".  I think discipleship has some similarities.  God demands that we act.  I don't recall a good example where he just counseled his people to do nothing.  There is always a precursor to the event.  Go and wash, repent, give away all you own, come follow me.  

 

We may also be emphasizing two different things of the same coin, but if Christians just wait around waiting for things to change we get a world looking an awfully lot like what we have.  

[cdowis]

Anakin7, it's more a Baptist thing.

I'm an advocate of eternal security in which Jesus is faithful in keeping watch over those who have faith in Him, Who is the author and finisher of our faith.

In Him are we eternally secure!

 

Does this mean that He violates our Free Choice?  After "being saved, we are then forced to be "good" even if we no longer wish to do so.  

 

Or do you mean that God saves us in our unrepentant sins, even if we commit the "unpardonable sin" (whatever that means to you.)

 

Just curious how that works in your particular religion.

Edited November 3, 2014 by cdowis

[cdowis]

Daniel,

 

Please help me understand something, especially since you assert that you are absolutely certain that the Bible does not teach multiple kingdoms.

 

Christ told the thief on the cross that "today" he would be with Christ in paradise.  Now what is this thing called "paradise"?  Obviously it is not hell, so Is it "heaven"?

 

I'm asking because I understand that the saved souls will live for eternity in the presence of the Father, in heaven.  But Christ, after three days in the tomb, told Mary that he had not yet been with the Father.  That means that Christ went into Paradise, but the Father was not there.

 

Now, I am a simple man, so that tells me that there are at least three places in the afterlife -- hell, paradise, and heaven.  There is mentioned a place called the spirit prison, but that gets too complicated for me.

 

Asking an expert on such things, where am I going wrong in my understanding of what the Bible teaches?

Edited November 3, 2014 by cdowis

[danielwoods]

Daniel, I see no evidence that Christianity has changed the world or filled it with love.  Am I missing something?  What you are teaching is that if you seek Christ first then everything will magically change.  Our objective is to bring people to Christ and then engage them on a road to discipleship - if you love Christ follow his teachings.  

 

I do think we have something in common - when we are engaged in holy activities; reading scriptures, sincere prayer, or going to the temple, I find that we yearn for righteousness. Righteous activity opens the door further to Christ and our actions reflect his presence in our lives.  This may be similar to your position.  

 

Semantics can be a problem here and we may be talking past one another.  As I young man I heard there were three kinds of people:  those who make things happen, those who watch for something to happen, and those who ask "what happened".  I think discipleship has some similarities.  God demands that we act.  I don't recall a good example where he just counseled his people to do nothing.  There is always a precursor to the event.  Go and wash, repent, give away all you own, come follow me.  

 

We may also be emphasizing two different things of the same coin, but if Christians just wait around waiting for things to change we get a world looking an awfully lot like what we have.  

 

The question is how does change happen? 

 

Does it happen by our own hard work, or does it happen by letting God work on our hearts and lives? 

 

If it happened by our own hard work, then God wouldn't be necessary, and the result would be something that we did. 

 

The transformative change that God does in our hearts and lives, is something that no man can create. That is the point of difference I am making. 

 

Two people can be "doing" the same things, reading scriptures, sincere prayer, going to church, etc. Right activities, yet if one is surrendering of ones heart to God on a daily basis and one is not, the difference between the two, from God's vantage point, is enormous. 

 

The love of God changes us, the same way two people in love are devoted and do things for each other as a result of that love. 

[danielwoods]

Daniel,

 

Please help me understand something, especially since you assert that you are absolutely certain that the Bible does not teach multiple kingdoms.

 

Christ told the thief on the cross that "today" he would be with Christ in paradise.  Now what is this thing called "paradise"?  Obviously it is not hell, so Is it "heaven"?

 

I'm asking because I understand that the saved souls will live for eternity in the presence of the Father, in heaven.  But Christ, after three days in the tomb, told Mary that he had not yet been with the Father.  That means that Christ went into Paradise, but the Father was not there.

 

Now, I am a simple man, so that tells me that there are at least three places in the afterlife -- hell, paradise, and heaven.  There is mentioned a place called the spirit prison, but that gets too complicated for me.

 

Asking an expert on such things, where am I going wrong in my understanding of what the Bible teaches?

 

Are there more than two places? Or are there more than one name for either place?

 

When we die:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

And Jesus described it in a parable saying, Luke 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."

First notice only two places.

Second, the good place, often called "paradise" by the jews, is where father Abraham was, yet the the rich man pleaded with him as if he was God the father. So, either Abraham is God (which isn't taught), or Abraham is actually how God appeared to them in paradise.

So in answer to your first question, what is "paradise"? It's the good place where we go after we die. 

 

If God the father is there, why did jesus tell mary he hadn't ascended yet? 

 

Because he hadn't completed the task of "ascending to the father" which would be the final step before sending his Spirit to the church (remember he said wait to receive the Spirit). 

 

Does this mean that God isn't in paradise? Of course not, as seen in the parable mentioned above, "paradise" is the jewish description of heaven.

 

So, yes, the thief on the cross went to heaven with Jesus. 

[Storm Rider]

The question is how does change happen? 

 

Does it happen by our own hard work, or does it happen by letting God work on our hearts and lives? 

 

If it happened by our own hard work, then God wouldn't be necessary, and the result would be something that we did. 

 

The transformative change that God does in our hearts and lives, is something that no man can create. That is the point of difference I am making. 

 

Two people can be "doing" the same things, reading scriptures, sincere prayer, going to church, etc. Right activities, yet if one is surrendering of ones heart to God on a daily basis and one is not, the difference between the two, from God's vantage point, is enormous. 

 

The love of God changes us, the same way two people in love are devoted and do things for each other as a result of that love. 

 

Okay, I think this is a semantic issue.  We both believe that we cannot work ourselves into Heaven; there is only one path to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ.  The process of discipleship is described differently, but I don't see it as fundamentally different.  

 

I don't see any reason to condemn a process that is only different because of the words we use.  That happens far too often among people who are faithful. 

[Vance]

Does one to seek to be perfect through Christ, or does one seek Christ first and as a result all these things happen.

A distinction without a difference.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

Are there more than two places? Or are there more than one name for either place?

 

When we die:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

How can we return to  a place we have never been? Just a questions for you.

[thesometimesaint]

 

Are there more than two places? Or are there more than one name for either place?

 

When we die:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

And Jesus described it in a parable saying, Luke 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."

First notice only two places.

Second, the good place, often called "paradise" by the jews, is where father Abraham was, yet the the rich man pleaded with him as if he was God the father. So, either Abraham is God (which isn't taught), or Abraham is actually how God appeared to them in paradise.

So in answer to your first question, what is "paradise"? It's the good place where we go after we die. 

 

If God the father is there, why did jesus tell mary he hadn't ascended yet? 

 

Because he hadn't completed the task of "ascending to the father" which would be the final step before sending his Spirit to the church (remember he said wait to receive the Spirit). 

 

Does this mean that God isn't in paradise? Of course not, as seen in the parable mentioned above, "paradise" is the jewish description of heaven.

 

So, yes, the thief on the cross went to heaven with Jesus. 

 

1 Corintians 15: 40-42

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

So also is the resurrection of the dead.

Edited November 3, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[cdowis]

If God the father is there, why did jesus tell mary he hadn't ascended yet? 

 

Because he hadn't completed the task of "ascending to the father" which would be the final step before sending his Spirit to the church (remember he said wait to receive the Spirit). 

 

 

 

Since everything must be proved by the Bible, please give us that reference.  Or is this just another "one substance" mystery -- Jesus is one substance with the Father, but he did not come into the presence of the Father, even though they are one substance.  The Father is in paradise, Christ went to Paradise, so somehow they missed each other.

 

So Christ was temporarily NOT one substance with the Father in paradise until he completed a task that then made them become one substance again.  And the Spirit then went forth from that re-joining of one substance and joined himself (the Spirit) to the church.

 

Did I get that right?  Sounds very mysterious to me.

 

Anyway, I guess I missed that when I was studying the Bible.

Edited November 3, 2014 by cdowis

[Vance]

Daniel,

 

Please help me understand something, especially since you assert that you are absolutely certain that the Bible does not teach multiple kingdoms.

 

Christ told the thief on the cross that "today" he would be with Christ in paradise.  Now what is this thing called "paradise"?  Obviously it is not hell, so Is it "heaven"?

 

I'm asking because I understand that the saved souls will live for eternity in the presence of the Father, in heaven.  But Christ, after three days in the tomb, told Mary that he had not yet been with the Father.  That means that Christ went into Paradise, but the Father was not there.

 

Now, I am a simple man, so that tells me that there are at least three places in the afterlife -- hell, paradise, and heaven.  There is mentioned a place called the spirit prison, but that gets too complicated for me.

 

Asking an expert on such things, where am I going wrong in my understanding of what the Bible teaches?

A few years back I asked an EV this question and the answer I got back was TIME TRAVEL!!!!!

Of course, TIME TRAVEL doesn't really answer the question either.

[danielwoods]

How can we return to  a place we have never been? Just a questions for you.

 

We don't return to a place, rather we return to God who gave us life.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We don't return to a place, rather we return to God who gave us life.

How can we return to God then? It says our spirits will return to him. How could we return if we had never been there? You didn't even offer an explanation. You just said "nope" then quote the verse using slightly different words.

[danielwoods]

Since everything must be proved by the Bible, please give us that reference.  Or is this just another "one substance" mystery -- Jesus is one substance with the Father, but he did not come into the presence of the Father, even though they are one substance.  The Father is in paradise, Christ went to Paradise, so somehow they missed each other.

 

So Christ was temporarily NOT one substance with the Father in paradise until he completed a task that then made them become one substance again.  And the Spirit then went forth from that re-joining of one substance and joined himself (the Spirit) to the church.

 

Did I get that right?  Sounds very mysterious to me.

 

Anyway, I guess I missed that when I was studying the Bible.

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Acts 1:3 He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

As for your misunderstanding of the Trinity. If Jesus wasn't infinite God, his sacrifice couldn't save everyone. 

[danielwoods]

How can we return to God then? It says our spirits will return to him. How could we return if we had never been there? You didn't even offer an explanation. You just said "nope" then quote the verse using slightly different words.

 

How? By the power of God. 

 

How could we return if we've never been there? We aren't returning to a place, but to God. We never were alive in a preexistent state, we never existed before God gave us life. We return to our creator, who gave us life. 

 

It's sort of like buying a car remotely for a child of yours who lives in another country. You paid for it, and everything, but you weren't actually there. Then once the car dies, it's shipped back to you… 

[ERayR]

The question is how does change happen? 

 

Does it happen by our own hard work, or does it happen by letting God work on our hearts and lives? 

 

If it happened by our own hard work, then God wouldn't be necessary, and the result would be something that we did. 

 

The transformative change that God does in our hearts and lives, is something that no man can create. That is the point of difference I am making. 

 

Two people can be "doing" the same things, reading scriptures, sincere prayer, going to church, etc. Right activities, yet if one is surrendering of ones heart to God on a daily basis and one is not, the difference between the two, from God's vantage point, is enormous. 

 

The love of God changes us, the same way two people in love are devoted and do things for each other as a result of that love. 

 

Why does it have to be a dichotomy?

[Vance]

As for your misunderstanding of the Trinity. If Jesus wasn't infinite God, his sacrifice couldn't save everyone.

Where is that in the Bible?

Chapter and verse please.

[Vance]

How? By the power of God.

Oh please!

How could we return if we've never been there? We aren't returning to a place, but to God.

So, when I return to my parents I am not returning to a place?

Heaven is not a place?

Pure silliness.

We never were alive in a preexistent state,

Show me in the Bible where it says that.

. . . we never existed before God gave us life.

Show me in the Bible where it says that.

We return to our creator, who gave us life.

But He does not reside in a place, right?

Show me in the Bible where it says that God is not in heaven or that heave is not a place.

It's sort of like buying a car remotely for a child of yours who lives in another country. You paid for it, and everything, but you weren't actually there. Then once the car dies, it's shipped back to you…

????

How can the car be shipped BACK to a place it has never been?

Pure silliness.

Oh, wait, . . . I get it. The scriptures don't mean what they say when you don't believe it.

[danielwoods]

Why does it have to be a dichotomy?

 

Not sure I understand the question. I've juxtaposed two views, one I think is derived from the NT, the other is not. There are many various views among believers. 

[danielwoods]

Where is that in the Bible?

Chapter and verse please.

Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.