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Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

blooit

By blooit
in General Discussions

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dberrie2000 Collaborator

dberrie2000

Posted
Posted

Lets not forget that being baptized grants you a remission, or a "the cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty" of sins.

 

Peter did not say "Accept Jesus into your heart and you will be saved".

 

If faith alone in Christ is what saves us why does, repenting and being baptized cancel out our sins? Could it be that works with our faith is what saves us?

 

Amen. I don't find the term "faith alone" but once in the whole Biblical text:

 

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

dberrie2000 Collaborator

dberrie2000

Posted
Posted

I am thoroughly convinced that it is only the anti-Mormon branch of Christianity that beats the salvation by indolence drum. When they are away from Mormons they freely admit that action is necessary.

 Strange--is it not. One would have a hard time getting the faith alone to admit they believe in a salvation through faith without works--IE--dead faith saves. They run from that like Olympian athletes--but it forms the post and pillar of their theology.

KevinG Grand Master

KevinG

Posted
Posted

Faith vs. Works is a favorite theme of the Devil. If we were to shut down that debate we might all get busy doing works with faith, and then where would old scratch be?

2 nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

How can one be saved by a mere mental acceptance of Jesus?

I don't think they will be saved by a mere mental acceptance, it needs to be a full blown born again experience and if that's for real, they will automatically do all the things that are needed to become adopted.  The premise does need to start with Jesus Christ's gift is free.  Hey, I'm not even an EV but I'm learning and this sounds about right to me. 

KevinG Grand Master

KevinG

Posted
Posted

Salvation is hardly free. A gift to us from God certainly, but Christ paid the price from Gethsemene to the Cross and through Death and resurrection.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

Salvation is hardly free. A gift to us from God certainly, but Christ paid the price from Gethsemene to the Cross and through Death and resurrection.

Hi Kevin, maybe I'm not good at conveying my message, where did I say salvation is free?  I said His gift is free to us, but we do need to do as he commanded and be born again, not just dunked.  So in a way it's works, but the initial gift is free to us but we need to respond the way that is needed. 

 

FYI, getting low on posts (limited), so I may edit this if I need to respond. 

danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted

That is a mental acceptance. You believe with your mind that he is the Savior. What does accepting Jesus in to your Heart mean? It is the same thing. A mer belief in Jesus saves you. That is what you are preaching. "Faith alone saves you". It is all the same.

 

Faith alone does not save you. James tells us that Faith is dead, being alone.

 

As is typically the case around here, your description of what I believe is not quite accurate. 

 

To make a decision to follow Jesus, happens inside of one's mind/heart/soul. However, it is a not just a mere belief as you describe it. Rather, it is a decision that effects all of one's life. 

danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted

Was it predestined from eons ago for one to make such a decision ?.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

What does the NT say?

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Because the NT teaches that God is all knowing (both past, present, and future), he knows who are going to choose him, using the free will he gave us, and based on this knowledge he's predestined us. His knowledge doesn't control us anymore than knowing that our kids will make mistakes, causes them to make them. 

Vance Grand Master

Vance

Posted
Posted

Hi Kevin, maybe I'm not good at conveying my message, where did I say salvation is free?  I said His gift is free to us, but we do need to do as he commanded and be born again, not just dunked.  So in a way it's works, but the initial gift is free to us but we need to respond the way that is needed.

The "free"ness of salvation is about its availability, not about its cost (in terms of effort by us).
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Vance Grand Master

Vance

Posted
Posted

What does the NT say?

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Because the NT teaches that God is all knowing (both past, present, and future), he knows who are going to choose him, using the free will he gave us, and based on this knowledge he's predestined us. His knowledge doesn't control us anymore than knowing that our kids will make mistakes, causes them to make them.

Are you saying that in the case of "predestination" that God removes our "free will"?

I find it interesting that you guys claim that the God who created us from nothing can and did give us free will (a TOTALLY illogical position). But then you also then reject that "free will" to claim "predestination".

So which is it. Predestination or free will? You can't have them both.

BTW the Greek word "proorizo" is only found 6 times in the NT. Of those six times it is translated to a form of "predestinate" 4 times. It is translated "determined before" in Acts 4:28, and "ordained" in 1 Cor 2:7.

Concerning Acts 4:28, did God remove the free will of, and thus make Herod, Pontius Pilate, some Gentiles and the people of Israel kill Christ? Thus absolving them of any real responsibility of the deed and thus placing the responsibility of it ALL squarely upon His own shoulders?

It is interesting that the other use is in 1 Cor 2:7, where the context clearly and unequivocally places the blame for Christ's murder upon "the princes of this world".

So, which is it? Predestination or free will? They are mutually exclusive.

coolrok7 Proficient

coolrok7

Posted
Posted

Anakin7, what about the Mormon polemics on display here. You need to look in the mirror (or motes and beams as you are fond of accusing me all the time of).

Again we were asked the thread question, not you, although you can say what you want.

dberrie2000 Collaborator

dberrie2000

Posted
Posted (edited)

I don't think they will be saved by a mere mental acceptance, it needs to be a full blown born again experience and if that's for real, they will automatically do all the things that are needed to become adopted.  The premise does need to start with Jesus Christ's gift is free.  Hey, I'm not even an EV but I'm learning and this sounds about right to me. 

 

I agree--and that free gift was to all men--unconditionally:

 

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

 

IOW--all men are released from the bondage of the automatic condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--or--the OPPORTUNITY for all men to inherit eternal life. Christ alone conquered death and hell for us--as an automatic consequence due to the Fall.

 

The actual reception of His grace unto life comes to them that obey the Redeemer's conditions:

 

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

The idea the world postulates--that first--one is saved, then--obedience follows--is a false doctrine, when referring to the theology of being saved prior to obedience to Christ. The scriptures testify against any such theology.

Edited by dberrie2000
1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Grand Master

Mola Ram Suda Ram

Posted
Posted

I don't think they will be saved by a mere mental acceptance, it needs to be a full blown born again experience and if that's for real, they will automatically do all the things that are needed to become adopted.  The premise does need to start with Jesus Christ's gift is free.  Hey, I'm not even an EV but I'm learning and this sounds about right to me. 

But here is the rub, you still make mistakes after words you don't keep them all perfectly. So what amount of sinning disqualifies you for being "saved". What amount of not obeying, would make people say "he was never saved"?

 

See, you cannot be saved with out obedience first. Not a perfect obedience. But a sincere effort on our part is all that is required. We renew that effort each week when we partake of the sacrament.

Mola Ram Suda Ram Grand Master

Mola Ram Suda Ram

Posted
Posted

As is typically the case around here, your description of what I believe is not quite accurate. 

 

To make a decision to follow Jesus, happens inside of one's mind/heart/soul. However, it is a not just a mere belief as you describe it. Rather, it is a decision that effects all of one's life. 

So tell me what the difference is? I mentally accept Jesus as my Savior I have an experience that he is my Savior that touches my soul as a result of that acceptance. Yet you are saying it is more than that. In what way?

 

Am I perfect at that point? What amount of sin after I am "saved" is acceptable to remain saved?  You said, that obedience comes after our faith or is an outward sign of our salvation.  If I sin once is that a sign that I am not saved?

danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted

Are you saying that in the case of "predestination" that God removes our "free will"?

I find it interesting that you guys claim that the God who created us from nothing can and did give us free will (a TOTALLY illogical position). But then you also then reject that "free will" to claim "predestination".

So which is it. Predestination or free will? You can't have them both.

BTW the Greek word "proorizo" is only found 6 times in the NT. Of those six times it is translated to a form of "predestinate" 4 times. It is translated "determined before" in Acts 4:28, and "ordained" in 1 Cor 2:7.

Concerning Acts 4:28, did God remove the free will of, and thus make Herod, Pontius Pilate, some Gentiles and the people of Israel kill Christ? Thus absolving them of any real responsibility of the deed and thus placing the responsibility of it ALL squarely upon His own shoulders?

It is interesting that the other use is in 1 Cor 2:7, where the context clearly and unequivocally places the blame for Christ's murder upon "the princes of this world".

So, which is it? Predestination or free will? They are mutually exclusive.

 

"His knowledge doesn't control us anymore than knowing that our kids will make mistakes, causes them to make them."

danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted

So tell me what the difference is? I mentally accept Jesus as my Savior I have an experience that he is my Savior that touches my soul as a result of that acceptance. Yet you are saying it is more than that. In what way?

 

Am I perfect at that point? What amount of sin after I am "saved" is acceptable to remain saved?  You said, that obedience comes after our faith or is an outward sign of our salvation.  If I sin once is that a sign that I am not saved?

 

What is the difference between mentally accepting something and deciding to trust that something with your life? 

 

You are on a hike. You come up to a rope bridge. You mentally accept that it's there, but when you decide to step on it, and trust it with your life, that is the difference. 

 

The fully trusting Christ with our life/salvation/future etc. is what saves us. His work saves us. 

Vance Grand Master

Vance

Posted
Posted (edited)

"His knowledge doesn't control us anymore than knowing that our kids will make mistakes, causes them to make them."

Ok, then, "predestination" when used in the Bible does NOT mean what the Calvinists claim it to mean. Some English translations render it "fore ordained" rather than "predestined" which does soften it.

The truth of the matter is that we may be foreordained to many things, but due to our "free will" committed sin, may never come to fruition.

Edited by Vance
KevinG Grand Master

KevinG

Posted
Posted

What is the difference between mentally accepting something and deciding to trust that something with your life? 

 

You are on a hike. You come up to a rope bridge. You mentally accept that it's there, but when you decide to step on it, and trust it with your life, that is the difference. 

 

The fully trusting Christ with our life/salvation/future etc. is what saves us. His work saves us. 

 

I've found with most rope bridges I have to walk across.  Sometimes I even have to tie them with the raw materials provided to me, in order for them to work.

KevinG Grand Master

KevinG

Posted
Posted

Anakin7, what about the Mormon polemics on display here. You need to look in the mirror (or motes and beams as you are fond of accusing me all the time of).

Again we were asked the thread question, not you, although you can say what you want.

 

I hate to give away the punchline, but the thread question was asked precisely because so many evangelicals and fundamentalist Christians are so eager to exclude the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from Christianity, and they exercise great feats of wresting scriptures in order to do it.

 

While I appreciate you wading in, you may be defending the indefensible.

 

I find so very few Mormons excluding Christians from Christianity outside of polemical retorts to the same treatment by others.  While it may be less than stellar behavior it sure is understandable when someone uses a polemicists own bad logic to reveal the hypocrisy of their stance.

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