Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[dberrie2000]

Reference Genesis 32...? Not sure what you are asking here.

 

Just pointing out the term "angels" have a broad brush application--as you were saying.

[teddyaware]

Perhaps you could explain that to us:

 

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. (Revelation 22)

 

It's highly likely this angel who spoke to John was one of God's prophets while in mortality. Also, when the angel says he keeps the sayings of the Book of Revelation, he is testifying to the fact that he is a fellow believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, another indication he was indeed a man.

 

 

[coolrok7]

db, Paul is contrasting idols with God. Idols are not equated with God (but are referred to in this context as things which are called god but they are not whether in heaven or earth). Jesus is being contrasted with "God the, Father" as one Lord Jesus Christ (the Holy Spirit not being referenced here). Biblical doctrine is arrived at in its totality by the Old /New Testament. The Godhead being the Father/Son/Holy Spirit which are God.

 

What you referred to as, "faith alone theology", is to be understood in this way, Justification before God (saved by grace through faith, not of works) which is not being guilty before Him in Romans 4. A lesser justification is before men, the one James is referring to in James 2. Sanctification follows Justification at the moment of faith (being set apart for works of service which is the proper response to our Justification before God when ones believes the Gospel. Justification is a work of God but recognized before men in our Sanctification.

 

Romans 1&2 explains the situation of those who never heard the Gospel in  their lifetime but still had general revelation which they did respond to, one way or the other therefore, they are "without excuse". Jesus is the just judge in both cases.

 

Both Paul and James who both use the example of Abraham and the declaration of him being justified. God looks on the heart while we look on the actions derived from the heart condition. God knew Abrahams heart wherein Paul states his justification was before he did anything. We see the justification before men when he lifted the knife.

[dberrie2000]

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. (Revelation 22)

 

It's highly likely this angel who spoke to John was one of God's prophets while in mortality. Also, when the angel says he keeps the sayings of the Book of Revelation, he is testifying to the fact that he is a fellow believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, another indication he was indeed a man.

 

 

 

I don't doubt that--but that angels have a broad application in the Biblical text--including Christ Himself.

[dberrie2000]

db, Paul is contrasting idols with God.

 

 

I don't believe 1Cor8:6 is contrasting idols with God:

 

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)

⁶ But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

Where are the idols there? The fact is--Paul, nor the NT writers, adopted the Deutero-Isaiah theology. Never was the "one God" attributed to God the Son in the NT, IE--

 

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)

⁵ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[dberrie2000]

What you referred to as, "faith alone theology", is to be understood in this way, Justification before God (saved by grace through faith, not of works) which is not being guilty before Him in Romans 4. A lesser justification is before men, the one James is referring to in James 2. Sanctification follows Justification at the moment of faith .....

 

I believe what the faith alone mean here is that one is saved unto life at the moment of a faith without works--IOW--dead faith saves?

 

Could I ask you to compare that to the testimony of Christ--where one is judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?  IE--

 

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[dberrie2000]

 

Both Paul and James who both use the example of Abraham and the declaration of him being justified. God looks on the heart while we look on the actions derived from the heart condition. God knew Abrahams heart wherein Paul states his justification was before he did anything. We see the justification before men when he lifted the knife.

 

I see what the scriptures present:

 

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)

⁴ And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

⁵ Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

 

That's God's grace for Abraham's obedience.

 

How does that differ from NT theology?

 

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

⁹ And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Vance]

I don't believe 1Cor8:6 is contrasting idols with God:

 

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)

⁶ But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

Where are the idols there? The fact is--Paul, nor the NT writers, adopted the Deutero-Isaiah theology. Never was the "one God" attributed to God the Son in the NT, IE--

 

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)

⁵ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The New Testament verses that separate God, the Father from the Lord Jesus Christ would fill several pages.

We also have several Old Testament verses that clearly and plainly declare that there are many gods that worship God. These gods that worship the true and living God must be real, otherwise it renders the praise as gibberish.

Too many people misinterpret verses where God's preeminence is declared to be statements of exclusion.

[Vance]

Romans 1&2 explains the situation of those who never heard the Gospel in  their lifetime but still had general revelation which they did respond to, one way or the other therefore, they are "without excuse". Jesus is the just judge in both cases.

More than once this explanation has been shown to be false. The fact that you keep repeating it well after it has been demonstrated to be false, says more about you than any thing else.

Since you have nothing else, and since you stubbornly refuse to see what the Bible is really teaching, then all you can do is to cling tightly to the falsehoods of the past.

[KevinG]

A clear example that puts to shame the claim that LDS worship or follow prophets over Christ...

 

We recently published a strong denial of Brother Brigham's beliefs on blacks and the priesthood.  Did the Saints chose to follow the dead prophet over Christ?  When years of practice was overturned by the 1978 revelation, and greater truth was accepted, was there a schism?  No and No.

 

Of course ask any practicing Latter-day Saint who they follow and worship and the answer is consistently Jesus Christ.  Insisting that this isn't the case is a stubborn denial of the truth, in order to slander the Saints.  

[Tacenda]

A clear example that puts to shame the claim that LDS worship or follow prophets over Christ...

We recently published a strong denial of Brother Brigham's beliefs on blacks and the priesthood. Did the Saints chose to follow the dead prophet over Christ? When years of practice was overturned by the 1978 revelation, and greater truth was accepted, was there a schism? No and No.

Of course ask any practicing Latter-day Saint who they follow and worship and the answer is consistently Jesus Christ. Insisting that this isn't the case is a stubborn denial of the truth, in order to slander the Saints.

When we have a song called "Follow the Saviour", that repeats over and over, I'll feel more inclined to believe with no shadow of doubt. We're singing "Follow the Prophet" as a primary class this Sunday for the program. So this was fresh on my mind.

[coolrok7]

db, go back and read in 1 Corinthians 8 from the beginning where the topic is concerning idols which leads to the statement concerning God, the Father and Jesus Christ.

Also the righteousness of God is derived from faith in God through belief. Cross Romans 4 with Genesis 15 which is what Paul was doing in making his case using Abraham.

Belief brings about the good works, a fruit of faith.

[KevinG]

When we have a song called "Follow the Saviour", that repeats over and over, I'll feel more inclined to believe with no shadow of doubt. We're singing "Follow the Prophet" as a primary class this Sunday for the program. So this was fresh on my mind.

 

 I'm trying to be like Jesus;

I'm following in his ways.

I'm trying to love as he did, in all that I do and say.

 

Jesus is our loving friend.

He is always near.

He will guide us when we pray;

Ev'ry child is dear.

2. Rev'rently and sweetly now,

We our voices raise.

Jesus is our loving friend,

And we sing his praise.

 

Tell me the stories of Jesus I love to hear,

Things I would ask him to tell me if he were here.

Scenes by the wayside, tales of the sea,

Stories of Jesus, tell them to me.

 

 

How could the Father tell the world of love and tenderness?

He sent his Son, a newborn babe, with peace and holiness.

How could the Father show the world the pathway we should go?

He sent his Son to walk with men on earth, that we may know.

How could the Father tell the world of sacrifice, of death?

He sent his Son to die for us and rise with living breath.

What does the Father ask of us? What do the scriptures say?

Have faith, have hope, live like his Son, help others on their way.

What does he ask? Live like his Son.

 

1. It shouldn't be hard, even though I am small,
   To think about Jesus, not hard at all.

Come unto Jesus, ye heavy laden,

Careworn and fainting, by sin oppressed.

He'll safely guide you unto that haven

Where all who trust him may rest.

2. Come unto Jesus; He'll ever heed you,

Though in the darkness you've gone astray.

His love will find you and gently lead you

From darkest night into day.

3. Come unto Jesus; He'll surely hear you,

If you in meekness plead for his love.

Oh, know you not that angels are near you

From brightest mansions above?

4. Come unto Jesus from ev'ry nation,

From ev'ry land and isle of the sea.

Unto the high and lowly in station,

Ever he calls, "Come to me."

 

Someone hasn't been paying attention...

[KevinG]

When we have a song called "Follow the Saviour", that repeats over and over, I'll feel more inclined to believe with no shadow of doubt. We're singing "Follow the Prophet" as a primary class this Sunday for the program. So this was fresh on my mind.

 

...and when we ask children to follow the prophet, why is it?

 

Adam served the Lord by following his ways.

We are his descendants in the latter days.

 

Enoch was a prophet; he taught what was good.

People in his city did just what they should.

When they were so righteous that there was no sin,

Heav'nly Father took them up to live with him.

 

 

Noah was a prophet called to preach the word

 

Abraham the prophet prayed to have a son,

So the Lord sent Isaac as the chosen one.

 

Moses was a prophet sent to Israel.

He would lead them to the promised land to dwell

 

Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away,

But he later learned to listen and obey.

When we really try, the Lord won't let us fail:

 

Samuel was a prophet chosen as a boy.

Hannah promised God her son would serve with joy.

In the tabernacle, Samuel heard his name;

He was called by God and answered, "Here I am!"

 

Daniel was a prophet. He refused to sin;

So the king threw Daniel in the lion's den.

Angels calmed the lions, and the king soon saw

Daniel's pow'r was great, for he obeyed God's law.

 

You aren't one of those who doesn't learn the verses and just shouts "Follow the prophet" at the top of your lungs during the refrain are you?

Edited October 21, 2014 by KevinG

[dberrie2000]

db, go back and read in 1 Corinthians 8 from the beginning where the topic is concerning idols which leads to the statement concerning God, the Father and Jesus Christ.

 

 

How are you using your comparison to negate the fact Paul's theology was as such:

 

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)

⁶ But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

You aren't thinking that fits Trinitarian theology?

 

Paul believed in other gods:

 

2 Corinthians 4:4----King James Version (KJV)

⁴ In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[KevinG]

When we have a song called "Follow the Saviour", that repeats over and over, I'll feel more inclined to believe with no shadow of doubt. We're singing "Follow the Prophet" as a primary class this Sunday for the program. So this was fresh on my mind.

 

This might appeal...  

[dberrie2000]

db, go back and read in 1 Corinthians 8 from the beginning where the topic is concerning idols which leads to the statement concerning God, the Father and Jesus Christ.

Also the righteousness of God is derived from faith in God through belief.

 

I agree--and this was Paul's belief:

 

Romans 6:16----King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

Galatians 6:7-9----King James Version (KJV)

⁷ Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

⁸ For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

⁹ And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

 

Romans 2:5-11-----King James Version (KJV)

⁵ But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

⁶ Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

⁷ To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

⁸ But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

⁹ Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

¹⁰ But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

¹¹ For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)

⁷ And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

⁸ In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dberrie2000]

Also the righteousness of God is derived from faith in God through belief.

 

Righteousness is derived from what the scriptures bear witness to:

 

1 John 3:7----King James Version (KJV)

⁷ Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[dberrie2000]

Cross Romans 4 with Genesis 15 which is what Paul was doing in making his case using Abraham.

Belief brings about the good works, a fruit of faith.

 

Romans 4 is a demonstration of Paul's brilliant argument of the Mosaic Law verses the gospel of Christ.

 

Paul's point in Romans 4:1---

 

Romans 4:1----King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

 

---starts with a question that calls attention to the Jews of something that was worthy of consideration. What did Abraham find? He found the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law. Abraham lived 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law.

 

Paul's objective here? To point out to the Jews--the very ones who claimed ther elite status by claiming "father Abraham" as their lineage--needed to come to terms that Abraham diod not receive the promises under the Mosaic Law--but under the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring unto them.

 

What did Abraham find? The gospel of Christ.

 

Romans 4:2-5---King James Version (KJV)

² For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

³ For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

⁴ Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

⁵ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

 

When Paul uses the term "works" here--that is a reference to the Mosaic Law--as the New Perspective now admits:

 

 

New Perspective on Paul

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The new perspective on Paul is a significant shift in the way some scholars, especially Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.

Paul, especially in his Epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, Paul was understood to be arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation, only their faith. According to this "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision and dietary laws, not good works in general.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KevinG]

When we have a song called "Follow the Saviour", that repeats over and over, I'll feel more inclined to believe with no shadow of doubt. We're singing "Follow the Prophet" as a primary class this Sunday for the program. So this was fresh on my mind.

 

...and I apologize for piling on.  I just had three smart alek responses and couldn't decide which one to use.

[Anakin7]

       dberrie our critic coolrok7 is a member of the Lutheran Church/Faith within the house of protestantism [ also predestinationalism]. Remember the Anchient understanding of Grace/Faith is lost in todays hellenized protestant churches. One Accepts/Acesses/Activates the True Grace empowered labors of Love by True Faith - pistis - Allegiance/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust [Just to name a few of the Covenant meanings of True Faith anchiently]. As the earthly is patterned after the Heavenly [earthly covenant marriages] our covenant marriage to Jesus Christ is the same when we accept him as our LORD of LIFE/LORD/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King/Master by true Belief/Faith, Baptized, given the Awesome Gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[dberrie2000]

       dberrie our critic coolrok7 is a member of the Lutheran Church/Faith within the house of protestantism [ also predestinationalism]. Remember the Anchient understanding of Grace/Faith is lost in todays hellenized protestant churches. One Accepts/Acesses/Activates the True Grace empowered labors of Love by True Faith - pistis - Allegiance/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust [Just to name a few of the Covenant meanings of True Faith anchiently]. As the earthly is patterned after the Heavenly [earthly covenant marriages] our covenant marriage to Jesus Christ is the same when we accept him as our LORD of LIFE/LORD/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King/Master by true Belief/Faith, Baptized, given the Awesome Gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

 

Hi Anakin. Well--I like Lutherans. They are cool people.

 

Faith alone is a strange theology--and is not found in the Biblical text but once:

 

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)

²⁴ You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

Thanks for the post--I'm hoping to be able to edit my posts soon--I usually always fine something in them I don't agree with.

[Tacenda]

I'm trying to be like Jesus;

I'm following in his ways.I'm trying to love as he did, in all that I do and say.

Jesus is our loving friend.

He is always near.He will guide us when we pray;

Ev'ry child is dear.2. Rev'rently and sweetly now,

We our voices raise.Jesus is our loving friend,

And we sing his praise.

Tell me the stories of Jesus I love to hear,Things I would ask him to tell me if he were here.

Scenes by the wayside, tales of the sea,Stories of Jesus, tell them to me.

How could the Father tell the world of love and tenderness?

He sent his Son, a newborn babe, with peace and holiness.

How could the Father show the world the pathway we should go?

He sent his Son to walk with men on earth, that we may know.

How could the Father tell the world of sacrifice, of death?

He sent his Son to die for us and rise with living breath.

What does the Father ask of us? What do the scriptures say?

Have faith, have hope, live like his Son, help others on their way.

What does he ask? Live like his Son.

• It shouldn't be hard, even though I am small,

  To think about Jesus, not hard at all.

Come unto Jesus, ye heavy laden,

Careworn and fainting, by sin oppressed.He'll safely guide you unto that haven

Where all who trust him may rest.2. Come unto Jesus; He'll ever heed you,

Though in the darkness you've gone astray.His love will find you and gently lead you

From darkest night into day.3. Come unto Jesus; He'll surely hear you,

If you in meekness plead for his love.Oh, know you not that angels are near you

From brightest mansions above?4. Come unto Jesus from ev'ry nation,

From ev'ry land and isle of the sea.Unto the high and lowly in station,

Ever he calls, "Come to me."

Someone hasn't been paying attention...

You got me!! Bandwagon's are terribly irresistable.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

dbl post

Edited October 21, 2014 by Tacenda

[Anakin7]

    Db I agree, remember historicaly James wrote that scripture to those that only had an head knowledge of Faith - pistis [ antinomianism] with no Grace activated empowered works !. May Grace be with you and those you love.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7