Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Storm Rider]

I honestly don't get it. When I first heard the LDS missionary discussions, way back in the summer of 1970, I was thrilled beyond all measure when I learned God really does love His children and proves it by making sure everybody who has ever lived will have ample opportunity to hear the Gospel, believe in Christ and repent prior to the final judgment. I was so excited at the news that I kept on shouting, "This is it!, This is it! This is it! I was utterly electrified at the good news! I rejoiced beyond measure as I learned God really is just, fair and merciful.

 

What made my rejoicings even more pronounced is that Elders Coleman and Leek (the missionaries who taught me the Restored Gospel) were able to show me right from the Bible that it was all true. And from the moment I first read those verses in Second Peter, I knew and understood by the Spirit that the Gospel really is offered to the dead who had no opportunity to receive it on earth. And to demonstrate He was even more merciful, I learned the Lord makes sure the Gospel is also taught to those who at first rejected it (like Paul) on earth and then died before the spirit of repentance won out in their lives.

 

Why anyone would recoil at these marvelous teachings and hesitate to joyously accept them is beyond me. Who would want to believe that a God of supposed perfect love would send countless millions of His children to an endless hell of unimaginable pain and suffering, all because He seems to be impatient and can't be bothered to extend His arm of mercy to them beyond the few years they spend on earth before death. It's all beyond me.

 

When I pray to my God, I'm comfortable doing so because I know He really is just, perfectly loving, compassionate and fair. I don't have to wonder how a God who is at once a God of perfect charity is also the author of a wasteful plan of salvation that needlessly wastes millions upon millions of souls to a useless and futile existence of endless suffering in hell. Why? What's it for? What logical sense does it make? None.

 

Here is the true God of love:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (2 Peter 2)

and,

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (2 Peter 4)

 

Others may twist and turn these words any way they wish, but I know these verses teach us God really is loving, longsuffering, merciful and compassionate to the His beloved children. 

 

I agree with you; I have no understanding of how anyone can read those verses and come up with why it does not have any impact on other teachings of Christ.  What is even more galling is that incessant yammering your teachings are not biblical - you show them in the Bible, they read it, but continue the yammering.  

 

It takes all kinds.  There are those that are ready to hear and those that are not ready to hear.  I never wasted my time on my mission with them and I don't waste it now.  I don't enjoy arguing about scripture.  I can easily and often appreciate the differing beliefs of another disciple of Christ.  However, as soon as they attempt that juvenile, Evangelical attack I move on.  Been there, done that and not interested.  

[Anakin7]

    coolrok Mormonism is not "Biblical" ?, I suggest you read the late Richard R. Hopkins Book entitled " Biblical Mormonism" which responds to your never ending painting of True LDS Doctrine as "unbiblical". I am surprised that you do not have a copy of this book at the ex mormons for Jesus building in Orange county C.A where you volunteer. It should be right behind Charlottee Pardee's chair and desk on the bookshelf, if it is not there you need to get one !.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited October 15, 2014 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

Daniel, what I have not done is play the game. Jesus goes and teaches the spirits in prison - prison turns into paradise for you, but hat is irrelevant - why would he teach SPIRITS in prison?  You have no answer except that there could not have been repentance and certainly not baptism because they are not mentioned specifically.  WHY TEACH SPIRITS?  Particularly of those who lived previously to the life of Jesus?  All you can say is there is no specific mention of repentance.  It is logical and absolutely clear in the gospel of Christ that repentance plays a role.  Why teach someone that cannot repent?  In fact, why teach them at all just let them cook with everyone else that has never and will never hear of Christ.

 

You are just not logical in your arguments - you close your mind to anything that contradicts your position.  Why wouldn't other people accuse you of being close minded?  

 

First, that isn't all I've said. I have pointed out numerous difficulties with the LDS interpretation of this passage (1 Peter 3:19). A pivotal point is that the word "Teach" isn't there. The greek word translated into Preach or Proclaim is used and in this context it's my opinion the word "proclaim" is the best fit. 

 

Second, this is no game. It's called biblical interpretation and evidence matters. What evidence does the LDS have that repentance can occur after death? I have seen not one verse to support this view. You call that closed minded? Oh well. 

 

Jesus stated on the cross that "Today you will be with me in Paradise." And he committed his spirit into the Fathers hands. From this we can tell where he went. The fact that Peter uses the term prison doesn't negate the other verses, and has to be interpreted in light of what we know to be true already. [edited to add: It's also possible that "spirits in prison" isn't referring to humans at all.]

 

Your assumption that I believe that people who haven't heard of Christ at all, are headed to hell fire is incorrect. As I have quoted more than a couple of times, Paul states all are without excuse. God communicates with everyone. Everyone has a chance to repent in this life. 

Edited October 15, 2014 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

Where have you been? We do NOT claim our doctrines are derived from the NT. We do claim that our doctrines come from the same source Paul claimed, that is REVELATION!!

 

 

Then maybe you should talk to your friends here. They disagree. They are arguing that the doctrines of the LDS are derived from the NT. 

[Anakin7]

    Or better stated - Traces found in the N.T

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Storm Rider]

Cool,

 

You remind of the counsel a good Nazarene theologian with a definite Holiness emphasis provided:

 

"All theologians bring certain doctrinal presuppositions and biases to Scripture as they seek to construct from Scripture their theologies. The true Wesleyan admits this and does not make correct doctrine a condition for salvation. We understand that if our sins are forgiven at the time of our death, we will be taken to heaven, even if our theology is off base a thousand miles. We are Christians if God, for Christ's sake, forgives our sins. He is able to do this only because of the death and resurrection of the virgin-born God-man, Jesus Christ. But we do not need to believe in any given theory of the Incarnation or the Atonement in order to be forgiven through Christ." - J. Kenneth Grider

 

Enjoy your path and I will strive to serve the only Master I have ever known found in Christ Jesus.

[Vance]

Then maybe you should talk to your friends here. They disagree. They are arguing that the doctrines of the LDS are derived from the NT.

I think you need to go back and reread this thread. You have, again, read something into what has been posted that is not there.

[danielwoods]

Except that what I have shown you is internally consistent - from the OT prophets stating that the prisoners and captives will go free, to the NT Apostles that state unequivocally that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. This is not even hidden.

You might recall that I posted this link earlier in this thread. http://pastormark.tv/2012/02/02/tough-text-thursday-1-peter-3-19

Where Mark describes three possible interpretations of this passage. Note that the LDS one is contradicted by three other scriptures, which is why it's not an internally consistent view.

 

What I have shown you is not even hidden. You simply have closed your understanding to it by saying it doesn't mean what it says.

Jesus is the one that stated he taught with hidden messages so that those that were not ready to hear the message would not see it.

You are correct. It's not hidden. I simply disagree with the LDS interpretation, for various reasons I have already stated. But, it's not just me who disagrees with it. I can't find anyone else who does agree with the LDS point of view except for the LDS.

 

[Anakin7]

    The Late Krister Stendahl did,

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Vance]

You might recall that I posted this link earlier in this thread. http://pastormark.tv/2012/02/02/tough-text-thursday-1-peter-3-19

Where Mark describes three possible interpretations of this passage. Note that the LDS one is contradicted by three other scriptures, which is why it's not an internally consistent view.

Is that the same "Pastor Mark" as described here?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/10/15/report-embattled-pastor-mark-driscoll-resigns/

So, who is Mark Driscoll that I should believe ANYTHING that he claims?

Edited to add,

Here is some of Driscoll's typical drivel.

http://pastormark.tv/2011/10/18/is-mormonism-a-cult

Driscoll showing "Christian" love.

http://blog.chron.com/iconia/2010/04/pastor-mark-driscoll-laughs-at-jews-catholics-mormons-muslims-pretty-much-everyone-but-himself/

Edited October 15, 2014 by Vance

[Flyonthewall]

You might recall that I posted this link earlier in this thread. http://pastormark.tv/2012/02/02/tough-text-thursday-1-peter-3-19

Where Mark describes three possible interpretations of this passage. Note that the LDS one is contradicted by three other scriptures, which is why it's not an internally consistent view.

Ironic that those scriptural references say nothing about repentance, which is why you don't agree with our interpretation... why is that?

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

We agree that the judgment is after death. But it doesn't say what will happen between death and judgment. I can say the end of a football game is after half time. It does not mean that the end of the game is immediately after half-time.

1 Peter 1:17 "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

Again, nothing here to refute our interpretation

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

Nothing here to refute our interpretation either. The rich man had his shot in life and does not get a shot after death. Lines up beautifully with our interpretation.

 

You are correct. It's not hidden. I simply disagree with the LDS interpretation, for various reasons I have already stated. But, it's not just me who disagrees with it. I can't find anyone else who does agree with the LDS point of view except for the LDS.

If that link is any indication of your search, then good luck

[danielwoods]

Ironic that those scriptural references say nothing about repentance, which is why you don't agree with our interpretation... why is that?

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

We agree that the judgment is after death. But it doesn't say what will happen between death and judgment. I can say the end of a football game is after half time. It does not mean that the end of the game is immediately after half-time.

Why would one expect it to say anything about repentance? It doesn't say anything about football either. What it states is the chronology of what happens. If it would have mentioned repentance or anything that happened in between death and judgement, then you might have something to stand on.

 

1 Peter 1:17 "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

Again, nothing here to refute our interpretation

Only the fact that man is judged based on *his own* work, not the proxy baptisms.

 

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

Nothing here to refute our interpretation either. The rich man had his shot in life and does not get a shot after death. Lines up beautifully with our interpretation.

Then we agree, no second chances after one dies.

[danielwoods]

    The Late Krister Stendahl did,

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

 

Then that's one. I appreciate the info, and will look at what he says. 

[Storm Rider]

Is that the same "Pastor Mark" as described here?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/10/15/report-embattled-pastor-mark-driscoll-resigns/

So, who is Mark Driscoll that I should believe ANYTHING that he claims?

Edited to add,

Here is some of Driscoll's typical drivel.

http://pastormark.tv/2011/10/18/is-mormonism-a-cult

Driscoll showing "Christian" love.

http://blog.chron.com/iconia/2010/04/pastor-mark-driscoll-laughs-at-jews-catholics-mormons-muslims-pretty-much-everyone-but-himself/

 

This poor fellow demonstrates why I spend so little time with Evangelicals; particularly when they begin to repeat this caliber of sheer stupidity.  Everything is canned and nothing is logical or reasoned.  There is a complete inability for him to hear himself or to use the same measure he uses for others on his own beliefs.  

 

He makes me shake my head in pity - and he leads others down this same path of stupidity.  God bless him.  

Edited October 20, 2014 by Storm Rider

[teddyaware]

Why would one expect it to say anything about repentance? It doesn't say anything about football either. What it states is the chronology of what happens. If it would have mentioned repentance or anything that happened in between death and judgement, then you might have something to stand on.

 

Only the fact that man is judged based on *his own* work, not the proxy baptisms.

 

Then we agree, no second chances after one dies.

Just for purely logical reasons, why would anyone want to believe God is like this?!? What in the universe does he have to gain by being so unloving, unkind, uncompassionate and rash in His judgments? Is it just because he has the power to do whatever he wants without anyone more mercifully disposed who can effectively challenge him ? You believe God is perfect love and that the parable of the prodigal son plainly demonstrates he is a God of second chances, but just because some as yet unconverted sinner suffers an untimely death in a car crash his chance for a compassionate second chance gets thrown out the window?

 

I've told you before, very few, if any, truly informed Latter-day Saints will never leave their God of true mercy and compassion for a God who so wastefully and cruelly throws the majority of his sons and daughters into hell just because he can do it. Not even the worst of genocidal earthly tyrants are able to do such an horrific thing, because at least their victims die and by this are eventually placed beyond the monster's reach.

 

Someday you will come to understand your stubborn dogmatism has kept you in spiritual kindergarten, unable to see the bigger and grander picture.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3)

 

Why did the just Christ preach to the spirits of unjust deceased persons in prison -- to sadistically rub their noses in the fact that they're eternally damned to suffer torture forever? Nice guy...

 

Edited October 16, 2014 by teddyaware

[Anakin7]

       Here is a site with awesome material defending True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run/ Responses to Anti LDS criticisms.  Has material on Salvation for the Dead [ See his links references on the left side of his page]. Awesome read, site is large with countless articles/papers. Vance [And any others] hope you enjoy this site !

 

http://www.yorkshiretales.com/allaboutmormonism/

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited October 16, 2014 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

Just for purely logical reasons, why would anyone want to believe God is like this?!? What in the universe does he have to gain by being so unloving, unkind, uncompassionate and rash in His judgments? Is it just because he has the power to do whatever he wants without anyone more mercifully disposed who can effectively challenge him ? You believe God is perfect love and that the parable of the prodigal son plainly demonstrates he is a God of second chances, but just because some as yet unconverted sinner suffers an untimely death in a car crash his chance for a compassionate second chance gets thrown out the window?

I've told you before, very few, if any, truly informed Latter-day Saints will never leave their God of true mercy and compassion for a God who so wastefully and cruelly throws the majority of his sons and daughters into hell just because he can do it. Not even the worst of genocidal earthly tyrants are able to do such an horrific thing, because at least their victims die and by this are eventually placed beyond the monster's reach.

Someday you will come to understand your stubborn dogmatism has kept you in spiritual kindergarten, unable to see the bigger and grander picture.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3)

Why did the just Christ preach to the spirits of unjust deceased persons in prison -- to sadistically rub their noses in the fact that they're eternally damned to suffer torture forever? Nice guy...

Why did the whole world go dark in the middle of the day when Jesus was on the cross?

Why would Jesus proclaim his victory to spirits in prison? I don't know. But I can tell you this, I would rather know the truth and believe that and follow that, than following a lie that makes me feel good now, and later when I find out the truth I will be sad because of how many people I led down this path.

Often the truth isn't exactly what we wished for or what we wanted. I certainly wish that your view was correct, but it simply isn't taught in the NT, in fact it contradicts known teachings.

Of course as is the custom in these types of discussions, your description of what I believe is not accurate at all.

[teddyaware]

Why did the whole world go dark in the middle of the day when Jesus was on the cross?

Why would Jesus proclaim his victory to spirits in prison? I don't know. But I can tell you this, I would rather know the truth and believe that and follow that, than following a lie that makes me feel good now, and later when I find out the truth I will be sad because of how many people I led down this path.

Often the truth isn't exactly what we wished for or what we wanted. I certainly wish that your view was correct, but it simply isn't taught in the NT, in fact it contradicts known teachings.

Of course as is the custom in these types of discussions, your description of what I believe is not accurate at all.

I expect better things of a perfectly loving and perfectly merciful God. When you find out just how merciful and compassionate He really is, if I'm there to see your face when it happens I promise I won't rub it in. But I do hope at very least you'll be happy and relieved when you find out the truth. After all, who could have a happy eternity knowing many of one's family and friends are being unmercifully tortured forever with pain and suffering beyond human imagination and absolutely no hope of relief.

Edited October 16, 2014 by teddyaware

[Flyonthewall]

Why would one expect it to say anything about repentance? It doesn't say anything about football either. What it states is the chronology of what happens. If it would have mentioned repentance or anything that happened in between death and judgement, then you might have something to stand on.

In order to refute repentance, it has to mention repentance.

 

Only the fact that man is judged based on *his own* work, not the proxy baptisms.

Funny, I have always maintained that EVERYONE shall be judged by their own works, it has been you that has waffled on whether "believers" are judged or not. Proxy baptism simple gives those that could not have the opportunity in mortality, to receive baptism if they so choose.

 

Then we agree, no second chances after one dies.

I have always stated no second chances... the issue is whether or not there was a first chance.

[Flyonthewall]

Why did the whole world go dark in the middle of the day when Jesus was on the cross?

Why would Jesus proclaim his victory to spirits in prison? I don't know. But I can tell you this, I would rather know the truth and believe that and follow that, than following a lie that makes me feel good now, and later when I find out the truth I will be sad because of how many people I led down this path.

Often the truth isn't exactly what we wished for or what we wanted. I certainly wish that your view was correct, but it simply isn't taught in the NT, in fact it contradicts known teachings.

Of course as is the custom in these types of discussions, your description of what I believe is not accurate at all.

The simple truth is Jesus did not "proclaim victory" as some have tried to twist it into, but Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, just as it is written. The reason why you are not open to the way it is written is that it does not fit in the box you are in... which brings to mind - The Dwarves are for the Dwarves!

[danielwoods]

In order to refute repentance, it has to mention repentance.

Based on this logic we should all be driving Honda's then because it doesn't say not to. The fact is, the scriptures already referenced spell out what happens when we die, and which agrees with other references in the OT.

 

 

Funny, I have always maintained that EVERYONE shall be judged by their own works, it has been you that has waffled on whether "believers" are judged or not. Proxy baptism simple gives those that could not have the opportunity in mortality, to receive baptism if they so choose.

Where's Proxy baptism taught in the NT? Because if it was taught, then you could say, "Oh it's only for those who haven't had the opportunity..." But since it's not taught anywhere, your statement is completely derived, not from the NT, but from another source.

 

 

I have always stated no second chances... the issue is whether or not there was a first chance.

Romans 1 is clear. All have a first and many chances I'm sure, in this life.

 

 

The simple truth is Jesus did not "proclaim victory" as some have tried to twist it into, but Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, just as it is written. The reason why you are not open to the way it is written is that it does not fit in the box you are in... which brings to mind - The Dwarves are for the Dwarves!

I know if it says it in the KJV it's must be true!!!

[danielwoods]

I expect better things of a perfectly loving and perfectly merciful God. When you find out just how merciful and compassionate He really is, if I'm there to see your face when it happens I promise I won't rub it in. But I do hope at very least you'll be happy and relieved when you find out the truth. After all, who could have a happy eternity knowing many of one's family and friends are being unmercifully tortured forever with pain and suffering beyond human imagination and absolutely no hope of relief.

 

It seems to me that this perspective is actually a quite shallow or limiting view of God and his ability to communicate to us. God has no need for any of us to do anything (notice I said "Need"). Jesus said, that if these people were quiet, the rocks would cry out. 

Not only does all creation display his glory, but God is Just and not wanting any to perish. So you don't think he gives everyone multiple chances in this life? You don't think he uses every opportunity to draw us to himself? You don't think his judgement would be Just and loving? You believe that Jesus visited the Americas and Joseph Smith, yet you don't think he will visit anyone who is truly seeking him today?

 

The reason the LDS perspective is shallow is because it comes from an attitude that we deserve to know and we are necessary when it comes to the outcome of another's fate. Fact is there's no scriptures that tells us we deserve to know, because we aren't the judge of other people. The expectation to know, is really just a glorification of self, not God. What is interesting is that mysteries actually glorify God. The mystery of what happens after we die, how exactly did God create the universe, or even ourselves out of dust. God could give us all this knowledge, yet he doesn't because of our situation. God is just like the rich Prince who is looking for a bride and doesn't reveal who he is because he wouldn't want a bride who is only interested in him for selfish reasons. 

[teddyaware]

It seems to me that this perspective is actually a quite shallow or limiting view of God and his ability to communicate to us. God has no need for any of us to do anything (notice I said "Need"). Jesus said, that if these people were quiet, the rocks would cry out. 

Not only does all creation display his glory, but God is Just and not wanting any to perish. So you don't think he gives everyone multiple chances in this life? You don't think he uses every opportunity to draw us to himself? You don't think his judgement would be Just and loving? You believe that Jesus visited the Americas and Joseph Smith, yet you don't think he will visit anyone who is truly seeking him today?

 

The reason the LDS perspective is shallow is because it comes from an attitude that we deserve to know and we are necessary when it comes to the outcome of another's fate. Fact is there's no scriptures that tells us we deserve to know, because we aren't the judge of other people. The expectation to know, is really just a glorification of self, not God. What is interesting is that mysteries actually glorify God. The mystery of what happens after we die, how exactly did God create the universe, or even ourselves out of dust. God could give us all this knowledge, yet he doesn't because of our situation. God is just like the rich Prince who is looking for a bride and doesn't reveal who he is because he wouldn't want a bride who is only interested in him for selfish reasons.

This is very vague and shallow...

People don't learn of Christ and receive Gospel light through some sort of mysterious spiritual osmosis. The only way anyone can learn of Christ and receive Gospel light is through a duly authorized and empowered preacher who is sent by the Lord to preach the Gospel to the ignorant and lost by the power of God. Paul said it best:

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? AND HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 14)

 

 

[teddyaware]

The simple truth is Jesus did not "proclaim victory" as some have tried to twist it into, but Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, just as it is written. The reason why you are not open to the way it is written is that it does not fit in the box you are in... which brings to mind - The Dwarves are for the Dwarves!

You know I'm mostly in agreement with you. But for the sake of accuracy I must say that according to Doctrine and Covenants 138, after the Lord's death He did indeed proclaim victory and liberty to the spirits in paradise as well as preach the gospel to the spirits in prison. Here is the pertinent section from D&C 138:

14 All these (the spirits in paradise had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful; (D&C 138)

 

So you and Daniel are both right.

[Flyonthewall]

Based on this logic we should all be driving Honda's then because it doesn't say not to. The fact is, the scriptures already referenced spell out what happens when we die, and which agrees with other references in the OT.

 

Where's Proxy baptism taught in the NT? Because if it was taught, then you could say, "Oh it's only for those who haven't had the opportunity..." But since it's not taught anywhere, your statement is completely derived, not from the NT, but from another source.

You are becoming down right silly - First you do not believe scripture because it does not have specific wording about repentance, now you say the absence of specific wording proves the absence of the practice.

The scriptures you referenced do not spell out what happens after death - all they say is judgment comes after death. Using the Football reference, that is like saying the game is over after halftime... which is true but there is still much of the game left after half-time. There are other scriptures that say there will be preaching done - but you have a vested interest in that not happening.

The NT testament references the practice of Baptism for the Dead and uses that reference to prove the truth of resurrection. You, however say, no - the Apostles use a reference to a false practice to prove the truth of resurrection. I suppose that works you your realm of belief.

 

 

Romans 1 is clear. All have a first and many chances I'm sure, in this life.

According to your interpretation, this "general revelation" is another gospel. The Scriptures say there is no other name under heaven whereby man may be saved, but you say Nobody even has to have heard of Jesus Christ and still be saved. The scripture referenced by Vance and Teddyaware completely and totally refute your interpretation(Romans 14:12-15). But... you have a vested interest in that scripture not meaning what it states specifically so you will come up with an interpretation that says it doesn't mean that.

Okay. That must work for you.

 

I know if it says it in the KJV it's must be true!!!

There are many other versions that translate it the same way so it is not only the KJV. Edited October 17, 2014 by Flyonthewall