Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[coolrok7]

board post delay

Edited October 21, 2014 by coolrok7

[Anakin7]

    Thanks coolrok7 for your 4x luv respond post !.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited October 21, 2014 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

 Coolrok7 a gift for you  -    http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Shape_Justification.htm

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited October 21, 2014 by Anakin7

[KevinG]

How are we able to interpret anything, anyone has written? If that is in question, then we have nothing we can establish as true. I think a base assumption that we all live by is that communication whether it is written or spoken, has certain rules by which we are able to interpret that message correctly.

Is the LDS church's interpretation of these passages correct or not? That's one question. The source of various LDS teachings don't seem to be found in the Bible, though some claim that (not all). 

We disagree on whether or not revelation helps at this point, because I believe that revelation is just as susceptible to the same short falls as interpreting the bible. In essence, how do I know that a certain revelation is true or not? Especially if it contradicts known teaching from the NT. Such as baptism of the dead or repenting after death.

 

Baptism for the dead does not contradict the Bible.  Neither does an eternal existence and God's eternal mercy.  Calvinism's myopia notwithstanding. 

[KevinG]

How are we able to interpret anything, anyone has written? 

 

By the Holy Spirit.

[Tacenda]

One of my boys used to sing at the top of his lungs when he was in the little boys room in the ward building, taking a tinkle...  "DO AS I"M DOING!  FOLLOW, FOLLOW ME!"

 

It was a good predictor of his personality.  He is 16 now, heaven help us all.

Like!  (I can't give rep points since being put on "limited".  You missed a lot of action, lol.  That's hilarious!  Have fun with him, and don't worry, be happy! 

[coolrok7]

Salvation is the free gift Anakin7, (resurrection is not the gift as taught in the Mormonism of Joseph Smith) not earned merited, or worked for as in Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood" which is by works.

 

Justification before God as Paul taught is how one is made righteous through faith by Jesus' sacrifice in payment for the sinful nature one is conceived with, inherited from Adam and Eve's disobedience to God through our parents.

 

We are not born saved (which is what Jesus told Nicodemus in that we have to be born again) but have the opportunity to repent and have our sinful nature dealt with as God has prescribed for all with the Gospel message or the inner conviction from general revelation (Romans 1&2, no Vance you haven't refuted the Biblical teaching on the matter) before the New Testament Gospel was being proclaimed beginning in Jerusalem (Acts 1).

Edited October 21, 2014 by coolrok7

[Flyonthewall]

This is repeated by you and LDS teachings, however it is not a teaching derived from the bible.

Though it may not be spelled out in the bible, it is most certainly implied, indicated, and referred to.

 

What you are stating is not found in the text. The text states, that God has shown himself to them by his creation. It does not say that they have heard the gospel preached as you claim.

It is in the text if you follow the references. To whom is the "them" referring to? Read the previous passages and it will reveal to you exactly who.

 

Your argument is both false and hypocritical, especially considering the origins of the LDS church. You don't believe that Jesus visited the Nephites or Joseph Smith?

It is neither false nor hypocritical especially in light of the origins of the LDS church. Anywhere Jesus Christ visited, whether it be the Nephites or Joseph Smith, He set up a missionary program. With the Nephites he set up His church headed by Prophets and Apostles, and missionaries to preach the gospel. To Joseph Smith, the gospel was restored and missionaries sent out...still are today.

This can't happen? http://www.charismanews.com/world/33713-dreams-visions-moving-muslims-to-christ

IS that what you are saying?

Of course it could happen, but even Saul/Paul was directed to go to the proper authority and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

And exactly where does the bolded (above) teaching come from? I haven't ever seen a source for it.

John 14:6 - 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not by Zeus, not by Buddha, not by Vishnu, not by a rock, a tree, or a stream. Only thru Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12 - 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

No other name but Jesus. How can someone be saved if they do not know Jesus? Most people already believe in some sort of God - is that enough? No. No other name but Jesus.

1 John 3:23 - 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

A commandment to believe on the name of Jesus Christ. How can they believe in a name they do not know?

Philippians 2:10,11 - 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

How can they confess that Jesus is Lord if they never heard the name or His gospel?

Ephesians 2:8 - 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 10:13-17 - 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 6:47 - 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Now, is a general belief in God sufficient? Maybe for a first step but more is required. I have not even touched on what Jesus said is required.

[danielwoods]

What is found in the Bible--is also found in the LDS church.

 

I don't believe the faith alone could truthfully make that statement, IMO.

 

What is not taught in the Bible (as we have been discussing) are proxy baptisms and repentance after one dies physically, yet those are taught by the LDS church. So your statement must be false. 

[danielwoods]

 

What is there about death that you believe shortens the arm of God in mercy and Grace?

 

Are we to believe that it took 4,000 years for His Atonement to remove the condemnation of all men due to the Fall ---and mankind can't have the forgiveness of sins after death? You do realize it was the Atonement that allowed for the remission of sins?

 

Hebrews 10:4----King James Version (KJV)

⁴ For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

 

When we were talking specifically about 1 peter 3:19, and the fact that repentance isn't mentioned. 

 

Maybe you have a passage that states that repentance can occur after death? Hebrews 10:4 doesn't seem to be it. 

[danielwoods]

Baptism for the dead does not contradict the Bible.  Neither does an eternal existence and God's eternal mercy.  Calvinism's myopia notwithstanding. 

 

Proxy baptisms for the dead isn't taught in the bible. What is taught is the finality of death, which is contradicted by the LDS teachings. 

 

By the Holy Spirit.

 

Which doesn't remove the human element. 

[Flyonthewall]

1 peter 4 doesn't say it was Jesus who preached. Of course you disagree with how the NIV translates the passage, which was the point of mentioning the greek tense. Why you disagree I have no idea.

Should I compile a list of bible translations that do not agree with the NIV?

English Standard Version

New American Standard Bible

International Standard Version

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Jubilee Bible 2000

King James 2000 Bible

American King James Version

American Standard Version

Douay-Rheims Bible

Darby Bible Translation

English Revised Version

Webster's Bible Translation

Weymouth New Testament

World English Bible

Young's Literal Translation

The context of the verse must be taken into account. For what reason was the gospel preached to the dead? Because the quick(living) and the dead(dead) will give account to him that will judge.

It makes absolutely no sense if the reference is only the people that lived during the ministry of Jesus to the time the letter was written, and have already died. No. The context is all inclusive - the living and the dead.

The word "gospel" is not in 3:19, like it is in 4:6. There is no evidence that the spirits in prison, who ever they are, were able to repent. The gospel isn't mentioned, so how could I be saying that repentance isn't apart of the gospel? In 4:6 the gospel was preached to them while they were alive. That's what it says.

What else is preached? if not the gospel? Translations that use the word "proclaim" always say it is the good news or gospel that is proclaimed.

When it is all added up, your interpretation does not fit. The context of the scriptures as a whole does not support your version, but the LDS version fits like a glove.

[danielwoods]

Though it may not be spelled out in the bible, it is most certainly implied, indicated, and referred to.

The idea that people will have a chance to hear the gospel after death, and repent, if they haven't heard it on earth isn't implied, indicated, or referred to anywhere in the Bible, which is why I asked.

 

It is in the text if you follow the references. To whom is the "them" referring to? Read the previous passages and it will reveal to you exactly who.

Done that many times. If it stated what you are claiming then instead of a reference to creation just following the statement that people are without excuse, there would be a follow up reference to their specific knowledge of the gospel. But it's not there. Instead there is a reference to how creation leads us to God himself. That his invisible qualities are seen by creation alone.

 

It is neither false nor hypocritical especially in light of the origins of the LDS church. Anywhere Jesus Christ visited, whether it be the Nephites or Joseph Smith, He set up a missionary program. With the Nephites he set up His church headed by Prophets and Apostles, and missionaries to preach the gospel. To Joseph Smith, the gospel was restored and missionaries sent out...still are today.

Of course it could happen, but even Saul/Paul was directed to go to the proper authority and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

Your claim is that a preacher (with the proper authority as you define it) is necessary. Yet, those weren't necessary for these many instances. So I guess it's actually not necessary now is it?

 

John 14:6 - 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not by Zeus, not by Buddha, not by Vishnu, not by a rock, a tree, or a stream. Only thru Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12 - 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

No other name but Jesus. How can someone be saved if they do not know Jesus? Most people already believe in some sort of God - is that enough? No. No other name but Jesus.

1 John 3:23 - 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

A commandment to believe on the name of Jesus Christ. How can they believe in a name they do not know?

Philippians 2:10,11 - 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

How can they confess that Jesus is Lord if they never heard the name or His gospel?

Ephesians 2:8 - 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 10:13-17 - 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 6:47 - 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Now, is a general belief in God sufficient? Maybe for a first step but more is required. I have not even touched on what Jesus said is required.

You claim that a general belief in God is not sufficient. You haven't provided scripture that states that. Instead you've provided scripture that details how we are saved through Jesus. But, what's to stop Jesus from saving people who truly seek him without specific knowledge of all these details?

As many examples have shown, Jesus can reach out to people. And as Romans 1 clearly states that people are without excuse because of God's glory as shown through creation.

Edited October 22, 2014 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

Should I compile a list of bible translations that do not agree with the NIV?

English Standard Version

New American Standard Bible

International Standard Version

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Jubilee Bible 2000

King James 2000 Bible

American King James Version

American Standard Version

Douay-Rheims Bible

Darby Bible Translation

English Revised Version

Webster's Bible Translation

Weymouth New Testament

World English Bible

Young's Literal Translation

The context of the verse must be taken into account. For what reason was the gospel preached to the dead? Because the quick(living) and the dead(dead) will give account to him that will judge.

It makes absolutely no sense if the reference is only the people that lived during the ministry of Jesus to the time the letter was written, and have already died. No. The context is all inclusive - the living and the dead.

I agree with you that those translations don't agree with the NIV, while some others do. I also agree that the context is key. Verse 5 isn't key though. We both agree that God will judge the living and dead. Key is verse 6. Let's look at it again.

"6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Notice that God will judge them according to men in the flesh, not based on what they did after death (when they have no body), but what they did in the flesh on Earth. In essence, if you're running for a touch down and you run out of bounds to get to the end zone, it doesn't count. You are only judged based on what happens on the field. Same with God, as this verse demonstrates, we are only judged based on what we do in the flesh.

 

What else is preached? if not the gospel? Translations that use the word "proclaim" always say it is the good news or gospel that is proclaimed.

When it is all added up, your interpretation does not fit. The context of the scriptures as a whole does not support your version, but the LDS version fits like a glove.

Let's see. The parable of the ten talents, when the owner came home he said, yeah you guys that didn't use those talents (in the flesh, on earth) have a second chance now that I'm back.

What is clear is that repentance after death isn't taught in the NT.

 

[dberrie2000]

Proxy baptisms for the dead isn't taught in the bible. What is taught is the finality of death,

[dberrie2000]

dberrie2000, on 21 Oct 2014 - 2:29 PM, said:

What is found in the Bible--is also found in the LDS church.

 

I don't believe the faith alone could truthfully make that statement, IMO.

 

What is not taught in the Bible (as we have been discussing) are proxy baptisms and repentance after one dies physically, yet those are taught by the LDS church. So your statement must be false. 

 

If you don't believe those things are included in the Bible--then you can't add them to my claim. I stated what is found in the Biblical NT--is found in the LDS church, and that I did not believe the faith alone could truthfully make that statement:

 

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[dberrie2000]

The idea that people will have a chance to hear the gospel after death, and repent, if they haven't heard it on earth isn't implied, indicated, or referred to anywhere in the Bible, which is why I asked.

 

The idea is implied:

 

1 Peter 4:6---King James Version (KJV)

⁶ For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

 

 

Done that many times. If it stated what you are claiming then instead of a reference to creation just following the statement that people are without excuse, there would be a follow up reference to their specific knowledge of the gospel. But it's not there. Instead there is a reference to how creation leads us to God himself. That his invisible qualities are seen by creation alone.

 

And repentance and water baptism brings forth the salvation grace of God:

 

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2014 by dberrie2000

[Storm Rider]

Salvation is the free gift Anakin7, (resurrection is not the gift as taught in the Mormonism of Joseph Smith) not earned merited, or worked for as in Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood" which is by works.

 

Justification before God as Paul taught is how one is made righteous through faith by Jesus' sacrifice in payment for the sinful nature one is conceived with, inherited from Adam and Eve's disobedience to God through our parents.

 

We are not born saved (which is what Jesus told Nicodemus in that we have to be born again) but have the opportunity to repent and have our sinful nature dealt with as God has prescribed for all with the Gospel message or the inner conviction from general revelation (Romans 1&2, no Vance you haven't refuted the Biblical teaching on the matter) before the New Testament Gospel was being proclaimed beginning in Jerusalem (Acts 1).

 

Is repentance a one time event and then there is no need of repentance thereafter?  If we are supposed to continue to repent then wouldn't that be works also?

[dberrie2000]

Salvation is the free gift Anakin7, (resurrection is not the gift as taught in the Mormonism of Joseph Smith) not earned merited, or worked for as in Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood" which is by works.

 

 

Question for you, Cool. Is this an example of earning God's grace?

 

Acts 2:38----King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[KevinG]

If you do not accept any truth that is not expressly contained in your interpretation of the Bible, do you eschew modern medicine and implied doctrines like the rapture?

If you reject Latter-day revelation that is your business, but pretending the Bible is a compendium of all truth is ridiculous.

[KevinG]

...if I don't seem to be taking this conversation seriously it is because I've been down this road before. The punchline is always Mormons can be considered Christians but they have additional requirements placed on their Christianity placed on them by the Christians that judge them, that other Christians don't have, because they are Mormons.

I am quite comfortable with Christ's judgement and find it superior to any mortal judgement of the efficacy of my faith in Him.

[teddyaware]

I agree with you that those translations don't agree with the NIV, while some others do. I also agree that the context is key. Verse 5 isn't key though. We both agree that God will judge the living and dead. Key is verse 6. Let's look at it again.

"6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Notice that God will judge them according to men in the flesh, not based on what they did after death (when they have no body), but what they did in the flesh on Earth. In essence, if you're running for a touch down and you run out of bounds to get to the end zone, it doesn't count. You are only judged based on what happens on the field. Same with God, as this verse demonstrates, we are only judged based on what we do in the flesh.

 

Let's see. The parable of the ten talents, when the owner came home he said, yeah you guys that didn't use those talents (in the flesh, on earth) have a second chance now that I'm back.

What is clear is that repentance after death isn't taught in the NT.

You conveniently left out the part that says, "but live according to God in the spirit." In other words, the Gospel is preached to the dead so that the they might be judged as if they had received the gospel in the flesh, and they are shown this mercy because they were willing to receive and live the Gospel of Christ in the realm of departed spirits.

Take an aboriginal fellow, for instance, who lived in a remote wilderness three thousand years ago, and who never once ever heard a word about the Judeo-Christian God, Jesus Christ or the Gospel. God in His mercy says that because a preacher was never sent to that man that he might hear and receive the Gospel, he is accounted in the eyes of the Lord as if he is still alive in the flesh because this is the only fair, just and merciful thing a truly loving God would do.

You might be surprised to know that the Latter-day Saints believe the only time men can receive Gospel is in the flesh. That's why, according to the mercy of God, those who die without having heard and received the Gospel in the flesh are technically still considered by God to be in the flesh because it's unfair in the extreme if one is consigned to an endless hell because they never knew of the Gospel while on earth. That's why, according to Peter, after a deceased person hears the Gospel he is judged as if he is still in the flesh on the earth but is in actuality living according to God's will in the world of departed spirits. So, in a technical sense, we are in agreement that the Gospel must be received while in the flesh.

Again, you're going to have a very tough time convincing the Latter-day Saints to abandon the God of true justice, love and mercy.

Edited October 22, 2014 by teddyaware

[Anakin7]

    coolrok7 my Lutheran Missouri synod friend yes True Salvation is Free !, Amem and Amen ! , 2 Nephi 2:4. You are aware of this scripture are you not ?, you work/volunteer at ex mormons for jesus in Orange county Calif with a vast array of LDS publications were you not aware of this ?. We are all born sinners ?, you mean My LORD Jesus Christ sacrifice did not pay the ransom 2000 years ago for what Adam/Eve did in the Garden of Eden ?. Then Jesus Christ sacrifice is in vain for it has no effect on mankind if that is the case. No doctrine of Original sin in history untill Augustine in 419 A.D.

 

    The Free gift must be recieved by the heart and mind [ A spiritual/temporal labor of love] by True Faith - pistis = allegiance/commitment/confidence/discipleship/faithfulness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust to the person of Jesus Christ, entering and maintaining the New Covenent we entered into when we made/make Jesus Christ our Lord of Life/Lord/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King/Master. Our Theology is not a modern day employer/employee salvation soteriological base/form/model but a Anchient Heavenly/Earthly patron/client Biblical Salvation Soteriological base/form/model.

 

    Reading the Bible/Book of Mormon through protestant reformed eyes will not get a True picture of what we truly believe. I thought that Lutheranism does not teach Once Saved Always Saved ?.The Former Lutheran ministers [Ones that became LDS] and current ministers and lay members have told me that is not True Lutheran doctrine, behaps I spoke with Lutheran heretics. We must Love and labor Hard to stay in True Grace [not cheap grace as promoted by many]

 

    See what one must do and must not do before after salvation [ According to a non LDS Christian ]  -   http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm

Jesus Christ and his Prophet/Apostles taught we must do certain things to recieve/obtain/win True Salvation.

 

 

   Salvation Come In And Through His Atoning Blood And In No Other Way - Bruce R. McConkie.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited October 23, 2014 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

If the "finality of death" includes the state of one's salvation at death--then all those who died before the Atonement of Christ are lost, as it was a proxy propitiation that included all the dead. And all of mankind would be lost without it.

 

Not what I believe, since the the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. As Jesus taught there are one of two place one goes after we die, a good place or a bad place, and he taught this before he died himself.

[danielwoods]

dberrie2000, on 21 Oct 2014 - 2:29 PM, said:

 

 

If you don't believe those things are included in the Bible--then you can't add them to my claim. I stated what is found in the Biblical NT--is found in the LDS church, and that I did not believe the faith alone could truthfully make that statement:

 

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You statement or question isn't clear to me.

Clearly the LDS church teaches more things that are not in the NT, otherwise a claimed restoration wouldn't be needed.